Where does Eddie Jones rank among 1999-2000 players?

[durantbird]

Some of the top players in the season 1999-2000: Shaq, Kobe, KG, Payton, TD, Kidd, Malone, Mourning, Hill, DRob, Carter, Iverson, Webber, Stockton, Allen, Reggie, Mutombo, Marbury.

Where would you rank 00' Eddie Jones, probably his peak year, among those guys?

[AStark1993]

Of all the guys you listed I'd say he's most comparable to Marbury in terms of individual impact. Both were definite top 15 players that year and on the fringe of being top 10. Of the two I'd give the nod to Jones. He was better on the defensive end and had better free throw and 3 point percentages.

[tsherkin]

Of all the guys you listed I'd say he's most comparable to Marbury in terms of individual impact. Both were definite top 15 players that year and on the fringe of being top 10. Of the two I'd give the nod to Jones. He was better on the defensive end and had better free throw and 3 point percentages.

Much less of a creator, though. He was an efficient 20 ppg guy on the 18th-ranked offense in the league. From around 99-05, Marbury was considerably better on O basically every season by virtue of shot creation.

[penbeast0]

Without looking up the year, I'd say prime Eddie Jones is a bit below the guys you mention except for Marbury and Iverson who I am not as high on as the others. I'd have to look more specifically to be sure, as you said, it's his peak and it may not be for some of the others.

Darn good two way player; never great. Third option type, can be second option if your first is strong.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

If you look at a highlight mix of Jones you would think he was a superstar with his highlight reel dunks and above average athleticism. Some comments I've seen he would be so much better in today's game.

Personally not even top 25 for me. He ALWAYS got cold feet and disappeared when the going got tough in the playoffs.

A big reason why LA and Miami (who both went on to win titles the following season) traded him. A lesser version of Andrew Wiggins.

[tsherkin]

If you look at a highlight mix of Jones you would think he was a superstar with his highlight reel dunks and above average athleticism. Some comments I've seen he would be so much better in today's game.

Personally not even top 25 for me. He ALWAYS got cold feet and disappeared when the going got tough in the playoffs.

A big reason why LA and Miami (who both went on to win titles the following season) traded him. A lesser version of Andrew Wiggins.

Better version of Wiggins, I'd say. Much underrated in the playoffs apart from not being a #1 option, and very much a superior scorer to Wiggins.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

If you look at a highlight mix of Jones you would think he was a superstar with his highlight reel dunks and above average athleticism. Some comments I've seen he would be so much better in today's game.

Personally not even top 25 for me. He ALWAYS got cold feet and disappeared when the going got tough in the playoffs.

A big reason why LA and Miami (who both went on to win titles the following season) traded him. A lesser version of Andrew Wiggins.

Better version of Wiggins, I'd say. Much underrated in the playoffs apart from not being a #1 option, and very much a superior scorer to Wiggins.

Agree to disagree. i remember Wiggins in the 2022 Finals was getting high praise for his play in that series. Really gave Tatum fits. Was arguably the next best player in the series to Curry. i never saw Jones once play that level once in the playoffs.

[tsherkin]

Agree to disagree. i remember Wiggins in the 2022 Finals was getting high praise for his play in that series. Really gave Tatum fits. Was arguably the next best player in the series to Curry. i never saw Jones once play that level once in the playoffs.

I do recall. He played good defense, and was wildly overrated as an offensive player in that series because he had some nice dunks. He stank ass from 3 (29.7% 3P), posted a 51.5% TS (and that even with the one good game he had) and shot 69% at the line. His offense was putrid in the Finals. He was an embarrassing 64.6% FT on that whole postseason and only shot 33.3% from 3.

Wiggins defended well, yes. Eddie Jones defended well, too, and he was a FAR better offensive force than Wiggins has been at literally any point in his entire career.

[trex_8063]

22nd in the league in rs PER
16th in WS/48
13th in BPM
5th in both PI and NPI RAPM (that includes playoff sample)

All while being 9th in the league in mpg (is 14th in total WS and 12th in VORP).


It's frankly hard for me to even speculate on him not even being top 25 in the league. imo, he's rather easily a top-20 player, probably a top 15 player, and perhaps even top 12-13(ish).
He's an efficient 20/5/4 player who also at least has a dark-horse argument for best defensive guard in the league.

[MiamiBulls]

Top 20 Player in 2000. In the Regular Season Eddie Jones played at an Top 12 All NBA caliber. In the Playoffs he played like a high-end role player.

The noticeable things about Eddie Jones is that he lacks scoring aggression(doesn't capitalize on mismatches with Iverson or Kevin Ollie guarding him). He's a streak shooter who has very limited scoring package especially once transition opportunities diminish in a Playoff setting; can't score proficiently outside 3ft and inside 22ft from the basket. If a good defensive team significantly reduce scoring optimal opportunities at the rim, they will basically turn Eddie Jones in nothing more than a Long 2pt/3pt shooter.

Another noticeable thing in Eddie's game is that he has dilatory on-court processing speed to point he struggles even as just a secondary playmaker in potentially manipulating a Defense.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Agree to disagree. i remember Wiggins in the 2022 Finals was getting high praise for his play in that series. Really gave Tatum fits. Was arguably the next best player in the series to Curry. i never saw Jones once play that level once in the playoffs.

I do recall. He played good defense, and was wildly overrated as an offensive player in that series because he had some nice dunks. He stank ass from 3 (29.7% 3P), posted a 51.5% TS (and that even with the one good game he had) and shot 69% at the line. His offense was putrid in the Finals. He was an embarrassing 64.6% FT on that whole postseason and only shot 33.3% from 3.

Wiggins defended well, yes. Eddie Jones defended well, too, and he was a FAR better offensive force than Wiggins has been at literally any point in his entire career.

WIggins was having a good playoffs preceding those Finals. He was the primary defender than helped limit Luka in the WCF to some bad shooting performances. Wiggins had great defensive effect vs Luka and locked up Tatum in the Finals. Which is more than i can say Jones ever did vs anyone in any given playoff year his entire career.

What did Jones as the only all star in 99-00 (as per this thread) do for the Hornets in the playoffs? With HCA in a winnable seried, a putrid performance vs a Sixers team that weren't even title contenders, thats what. 38% FG for the series He couldnt even outperform overweight Derrick Coleman

[tsherkin]

WIggins was having a good playoffs preceding those Finals.

Wiggins was having a good defensive postseason, yes. He was shooting 35.3% from 3 prior to the Finals, which was 0.1% below league playoff average. He was not a particularly good offensive player. He was barely enough of a threat to merit his minutes as an offensive player, but that coupled well to his defense.

Which is more than i can say Jones ever did vs anyone in any given playoff year his entire career.

What did Jones as the only all star in 99-00 (as per this thread) do for the Hornets in the playoffs? With HCA in a winnable seried, a putrid performance vs a Sixers team that weren't even title contenders, thats what. 38% FG for the series He couldnt even outperform overweight Derrick Coleman

Yeah, he wasn't a high-end scorer. He obliterated Wiggins in terms of utility, though, because he was very efficient. He had his limitations, but no one sane ever confused him for a focal star, so that isn't really salient. He definitely struggled against the 2000 Sixers, but they WERE the 4th-best defense in the league that season, and Ratliff was smashing almost 4 bpg for them. It's very hard to get anything done with an elite rim protector walling you off.

Wiggins doesn't really approach what Jones typically brought on offense, though, so this is sort of an odd conversation to have. Wiggins sucking on O has been a central theme of his NBA career. Jones was a serviceable to good second or third star on offense his whole career.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Top 20 Player in 2000. In the Regular Season Eddie Jones played at an Top 12 All NBA caliber. In the Playoffs he played like a high-end role player.

The noticeable things about Eddie Jones is that he lacks scoring aggression(doesn't capitalize on mismatches with Iverson or Kevin Ollie guarding him). He's a streak shooter who has very limited scoring package especially once transition opportunities diminish in a Playoff setting; can't score proficiently outside 3ft and inside 22ft from the basket. If a good defensive team significantly reduce scoring optimal opportunities at the rim, they will basically turn Eddie Jones in nothing more than a Long 2pt/3pt shooter.

Another noticeable thing in Eddie's game is that he has dilatory on-court processing speed to point he struggles even as just a secondary playmaker in potentially manipulating a Defense.

He never developed legit handles as a off guard. He had as explosive a first step as anyone, but if you could stay in front of him he couldn't consistently dribble 1 on 1 to break free of defenders. He had no midrange game and was streaky from the 3pt line.

Also he was very lithe and could be physically overwhelmed at either end of the floor.

I really cheered for him more than any player in the 90s, but he just always vanished come playoff time.

[penbeast0]

More Klay Thompson than Wiggins if you are comparing to the Warriors though in his career he definitely had a rep (deserved or not) for disappearing in the closing minutes of big games.

[tsherkin]

He never developed legit handles as a off guard. He had as explosive a first step as anyone, but if you could stay in front of him he couldn't consistently dribble 1 on 1 to break free of defenders. He had no midrange game and was streaky from the 3pt line.

All quite true.

I really cheered for him more than any player in the 90s, but he just always vanished come playoff time.

Eddie wasn't a #1. I think anyone with eyes could tell this. It isn't really his fault that he was placed in situations where there wasn't enough quality scoring and that the franchise was deploying him in such fashion, though. We all knew he wasn't the POA guy, we all knew he wasn't the mid-range attack guy. It was very clear what his strengths and weaknesses were.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Eddie wasn't a #1. I think anyone with eyes could tell this. It isn't really his fault that he was placed in situations where there wasn't enough quality scoring and that the franchise was deploying him in such fashion, though. We all knew he wasn't the POA guy, we all knew he wasn't the mid-range attack guy. It was very clear what his strengths and weaknesses were.

Of course he wasn't, and I never expected such from him. I just looked for him to be a guy that could give a team a boost when their superstars were struggling (like Kukoc in the 98 Finals). Bobby Jackson on Sacramento in 02.

Or hit big shots when called upon (Derek Fisher or Robert Horry).

My main gripe with him is he couldn't be counted on to do either. He shied away from the big moment, whereas other players of a similar stature or even lesser talented wanted the big moment. He was very professional, never a problem for any team he played on. But too passive and nice.

[tsherkin]

Of course he wasn't, and I never expected such from him. I just looked for him to be a guy that could give a team a boost when their superstars were struggling (like Kukoc in the 98 Finals). Bobby Jackson on Sacramento in 02.

Shaq was the only offensive focal player of worth next to whom he ever played. And he was an AS both of those seasons in his 3rd and 4th years. 97 was a step-up year, it was the first time he averaged 13+ ppg in a season. He shot well with what touches he got, but LA was moving the ball around from Shaq to Nick Van Exel, and Eddie was getting touches on par with Elden Campbell.

THe year after, he was fine as a second option. What happened after he left LA is obviously very different in context.

My main gripe with him is he couldn't be counted on to do either. He shied away from the big moment,

Because he was a roleplayer. That's fairly normal for them. He wasn't much of a shot creator, he was a catch-and-shoot guy who needed offense spoonfed to him around action from core stars. And that in mind, he generally did pretty well for who he was.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

[quote="tsherkin"]Shaq was the only offensive focal player of worth next to whom he ever played. And he was an AS both of those seasons in his 3rd and 4th years. 97 was a step-up year, it was the first time he averaged 13+ ppg in a season. He shot well with what touches he got, but LA was moving the ball around from Shaq to Nick Van Exel, and Eddie was getting touches on par with Elden Campbell.

THe year after, he was fine as a second option. What happened after he left LA is obviously very different in context.

Because he was a roleplayer. That's fairly normal for them. He wasn't much of a shot creator, he was a catch-and-shoot guy who needed offense spoonfed to him around action from core stars. And that in mind, he generally did pretty well for who he was.[/quote]

He played with Wade and Shaq in 04-05 as well. He was their 3rd best option.
With Wade ailing with a injury Jones could've given them a boost instead of vanishing as the series wore on. 37% FG for the series and 31% from 3 just wasn't good enough in a series Miami narrowly lost. No surprise they showed him the door after that loss.

[tsherkin]

He played with Wade and Shaq in 04-05 as well. He was their 3rd best option.

You understand that he was 33 and in his 11th season at that point, right? Taking 10 shots per game? Shot well in the playoffs for a third option. He did fine. Not sure why that's really relevant, because he was well over the hill at that point.

With Wade ailing with a injury Jones could've given them a boost instead of vanishing as the series wore on. 37% FG for the series and 31% from 3 just wasn't good enough in a series Miami narrowly lost. No surprise they showed him the door after that loss.

Oh, you're talking about the PISTONS series. That's... ludicrous. The Pistons, having been an historic defense the year prior, were a top-3 D in 05 and the best defense in the playoffs. What did you think was going to happen?

We've covered this already. He didn't have the on-ball game to do anything about that. Expecting it out of him, particularly in THAT season, would be foolhardy in the extreme.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You understand that he was 33 and in his 11th season at that point, right? Taking 10 shots per game? Shot well in the playoffs for a third option. He did fine. Not sure why that's really relevant, because he was well over the hill at that point.

Oh, you're talking about the PISTONS series. That's... ludicrous. The Pistons, having been an historic defense the year prior, were a top-3 D in 05 and the best defense in the playoffs. What did you think was going to happen?

We've covered this already. He didn't have the on-ball game to do anything about that. Expecting it out of him, particularly in THAT season, would be foolhardy in the extreme

Puhleeze. He showed this disappearing act in the playoffs in Miami the year before Shaq arrived and rookie Wade led him past a middling Hornets team. That's just who he was. Game 7 at home, goes 3-13.

Lemme guess the 03-04 Hornets were a elite defensive team too? Lol. Or maybe he was too old that year as well.

On a title team I wouldn't even trust him to be a 3rd go to option on a team. And that goes for the 99-00 version of Eddie Jones as well. I don't trust him to consistenly knock down big shots in the playoffs when stars are doubled and kick it out to him.