Retro Player of the Year 1981-82 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1981-82.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 11:00AM PST on Thursday, October 24th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

________________________________________
Layaway Voters
* Bad Gatorade
* McBubbles

[trelos6]

OPOY

We’re starting to get some really good candidates again. There are the big scorers, with varying levels of efficiency.

George Gervin. All he does is score. But score he did. 31.8 pp75 on +2.4 rTS%. Team rOrtg was +3.

Moses Malone. 27.5 pp75 on +3.8 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +1.4. Plus, his insane offensive rebounding to keep possessions

Dan Issel. Need to seriously consider Dan. 24.6 pp75 on +7 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +7.4. This was a historically great offense. David Thompson, Alex English, Kiki Vandeweghe also put up some terrific numbers.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar. 23.7 pp75 on +7 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +3.3. Typical Kareem numbers.

Artis Gilmore. 19.7 pp75 on +16.4 rTS%. Another insane true shooting season from Artis. Team offense rOrtg was -0.3.

But ultimately, I’m going with:

1. Magic Johnson. Lakers were the #2 offense all year behind the Nuggets. Magic was the best passer in the league, one of the best playmakers. And still scored to the tune of 16.9 pp75 on +5.2 rTS%.

2. Alex English. The Nuggets were too good offensively. I had to give one of them a spot. I settled on Alex English, as he was the best passer on the team, and still scored at 22.7pp75 on +5.8 rTS%.

3. Larry Bird. His efficiency is starting to get better. 21.4 pp75 on +1.9 rTS%. Celtics were a +2.9 rOrtg. Plus, his passing and playmaking was quite good, though not Magic levels.


DPOY

DPOY is a bit harder for me this year. You can throw a blanket over the top 5 defenses, it was that close. In the post season, the Celtics separated from the group.

1. Robert Parish. A big paint presence, and rim deterrence on the best defense in the post season, and a top 5 defense

2. Jack Sikma. Anchor of a top 5 defense.

3. Rick Mahorn. Anchor of a top 5 defense.

HM: Harvey Catchings. Didn’t play enough minutes, otherwise he’d be DPOY. DJ and Moncrief were also great, but it’s hard to get behind a perimeter guy when there are lots of good big options.



POY

It’s tight at the top this year, between 3 candidates who were all very good. Moses may have been the best scorer of the group, as well as generating extra possessions through offensive rebounds, but Bird provides offensive value through his playmaking and spacing. Julius Erving was also a solid all round player, with some great playoff performances.

1. Larry Bird. I have Bird at 1. He wasn’t at his peak, but the combination of playmaking, good volume scoring, and defense puts him here. +2.67 OPIPM, +1.72 DPIPM, +4.39 PIPM. 15.17 Wins Added. Yes he came off the bench for a bunch of games, but his performance off the bench was still great.

2. Julius Erving. So close to 1. The playmaking edge took it for Bird. Dr. J scored with volume and efficiency, and was a terrific defender, causing havoc all over the court. +3.94 OPIPM, +1.24 DPIPM, +5.18 PIPM. 17.55 Wins Added

3. Moses Malone. Great volume, good efficiency scoring. +4.2 OPIPM, -0.72 DPIPM, +3.48 PIPM. 13.47 Wins Added.

4. Magic Johnson. The OPOY, and now the best player on the Lakers. +3.52 OPIPM, +1.22 DPIPM, +4.73 PIPM. 16.41 Wins Added

5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar. He was ageing, but he was still good. Fantastic volume and efficiency. Good rim protection, though not quite as good as he once was. +2.11 OPIPM, +1.45 DPIPM, +3.56 PIPM. 12.33 Wins Added

[Narigo]

1. Magic Johnson- Decided to go with Magic for number 1 mostly because of playoff performance

2. Moses Malone-

3. Julius Erving-

4. Larry Bird- Could have been higher but was outplayed by Dr.J slightly in the playoffs

5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar- declined a bit this season but still a top 5 player

[70sFan]

Is it crazy to consider Julius here for the number 1 spot of POY?

[One_and_Done]

Probably leaning Magic or Bird #1.

[tsherkin]

Is it crazy to consider Julius here for the number 1 spot of POY?

Seems off to me, but he deserves a vote, I guess. It was the last year of his NBA peak, I figure, and he was very, very good.

[AEnigma]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Gus Williams
3. Alex English

Magic returns and is now Kareem’s co-lead. Gus Williams also returns and comfortably outproduces George Gervin in their head-to-head series. And English leads a historically excellent (gimmick) offence to the playoffs even as David Thompson fades out as a talent, but then disappoints in the postseason.

Bird’s lessened performance from the prior year and the return/elevation of these three players excludes him this go-around, but he will be a mainstay from 1984-88.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Jack Sikma
2. Rick Mahorn
3. Buck Williams

Anchors of three of the best five defences. All relative ensemble efforts, but I assign them more team defensive responsibility than I do for anyone on the Bucks and Suns (the other top five defensive teams). The Bullets completely shut down the Nets in the postseason and then do a capable job suppressing the Celtics’ offence as well, so Mahorn earns the advantage over Buck.

HM: Dan Roundfield, who missed too many games but was excellent this year and might have pushed Sikma for #1.

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Moses Malone
3. Larry Bird
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Julius Erving

Similarly clear top five for me this year as last year. Gervin has a better case than he did last year so I expect he will receive several votes, and Gus and Moncrief are respectable guard options at #5 too, but if I needed to build a team around a player, these five would be my first choices.

Moses was the most impressive regular season player. Like in 1979, he is unspectacular in an immediate and unceremonious first round exit against an ultimately irrelevant team. I am impressed enough by his regular season that I am willing to keep him at second, but there is no way I can say he was the season’s defining player with such a forgettable playoff result; to do that requires a similarly forgettable playoffs league-wide, like in 1978.

Kareem takes a slight step back while remaining a top two big. The 6-0 record without him is a blemish, but not so much of one that I would ever elevate Erving ahead. The time for that was 1976. Yes, Erving had maybe his best NBA regular season; however, in the postseason it is easy to argue that Andrew Toney was the 76ers’ offensive lead. Bird went back to his usual scoring struggles, but Toney was the reason the Celtics lost, and I am not going to ascribe Toney’s excellence to Erving.

[penbeast0]

Not sure what makes Denver's offense a gimmick offense. Other than the fact that TR Dunn couldn't shoot at all, it's basically a pace and space motion offense in an era where most other teams are running post offenses. The fact that Kiki was a one dimensional pure shooter who couldn't defend or rebound playing next to a decent shooting center who also isn't a particularly good rebounder makes him a prototypical modern 4.

[DNice68]

1. Magic
2. Moses
3. Dr. J
4. Bird
5. Alex English

[AEnigma]

Not sure what makes Denver's offense a gimmick offense. Other than the fact that TR Dunn couldn't shoot at all, it's basically a pace and space motion offense in an era where most other teams are running post offenses. The fact that Kiki was a one dimensional pure shooter who couldn't defend or rebound playing next to a decent shooting center who also isn't a particularly good rebounder makes him a prototypical modern 4.

I would characterise it as a gimmick because of their defensive approach. I similarly would characterise the 2004 Mavericks playing Dirk at centre as being something of a gimmick offence. I do not mean “gimmick” to suggest that they were not the league’s best offence so much as they were only as much of an outlier as they were because they deliberately shied away from taking a more principled approach on defence. You know I respect English, but he is far from the only player who could have achieved those offensive heights with that style of play.

[AEnigma]

1. Magic
2. Moses
3. Dr. J
4. Bird
5. Alex English

Just so there is no confusion, I am happy to have you participate in the discussions, but new voter entries closed a month ago, so any ballots you post are for the sake of discussion rather than for actual tallying.

[penbeast0]

As I have been doing, I'll start from the team end and work toward the individual.

The three super teams are still the elite. Boston is the best RS team behind Larry Bird and Robert Parish, but gets beaten by Philly in the semis and the Lakers win the title. Philadelphia is led by Dr. J with Bobby and Caldwell Jones leading the defense. LA has Magic leading the team in minutes and rebounding, sharing the scoring with Kareem and Wilkes, and sharing the playmaking with PG Norm Nixon. He and Kareem are 1A/1B as Kareem's rim protection is also a key.

The top pretenders are Milwaukee in the East with Sidney Moncrief definitely taking primacy from Marques Johnson and leading the team in scoring, rebounding, and assists (per game and overall, not necessarily per minute) while keying the best defense in the league. Unimpressive playoffs hurt his overall standing. In the West, the best of the rest is Seattle again, as Gus Williams and Jack Sikma don't miss Dennis Johnson (or Paul Westphal who DJ was traded for), relying on defensive specialists Danny Vranes and Bill Hanslick on the wing.

Other winning teams include Buck Williams and the Nets (Ray Williams is the offensive leader but they are 2nd in the league defensively and 2nd to last offensively so . . . ), the physically bruising Bullets, and Atlanta in the East. In the West you have George Gervin's scoring for SA, Phoenix (now with DJ), Denver where they started Alex English, Dan Issel, and Kiki Vandeweghe up front and were 1st in offense and last in defense, Moses in Houston, Golden State, and Portland.

Moses was 2nd in scoring, 1st in rebounding, and led in PER and Win Shares. Erving led in Box score plus-minus again and was second in Win Shares, Per, and VORP. Gervin led in scoring; Magic led in VORP.

POY:
1. Julius Erving
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Moses Malone
5. Sidney Moncrief

[Djoker]

This is a pretty wide open year but I'm pretty sure Moses will be my #1. I think he built such a huge lead in the RS that nothing anyone did in the PS passes him. 1981-82 is a pretty underrated season as far as great centers go. Magic and Erving at #1 seem like pretty easily defensible picks though.

[OhayoKD]

Will elaborate more later but

1. Magic Johnson

Best offensive player in the league, case as the most valuable player of the era, leads the Lakers to a title.

2. Julius Erving

2nd best offensive player in the league, outplays last thread's #1, and pushes the best team to 6 in the finals. Dubious on what he offers as a playmaker and his scoring gets a bit worse. Easiest route to moving me is probably convincing me I undervalue him defensively.

3. Moses Malone

He wins an MVP that I think can be credibly defended scoring plenty, rebounding plenty, and offering good defense to go along. If I restimulated the season 100 times, I would expect to be most impressed by what Moses does. But this is not a simulation and unlike last year, his Rockets do basically nothing in the postseason losing to a non-contender(playing like a negative srs team if you by by srs) with Moses' scoring volume and efficiency collapsing from his RS campaign.

4. Larry Bird

Doesn't start for a decent chunk of the season and sees himself another postseason drop-off seeing his volume shrink along with a gigantic drop-off in efficiency (8 points).

5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

4th in minutes in the lakers for both the regular-season and the playoffs and sees a sizable tumble in scoring production in the postseason. Will get a little benefit of the doubt from be based on surrounding years.

[homecourtloss]

1982 had some nice offensive seasons between English, Dantley, Gus Williams, and the Squid to go along with the names that are familiarly atop the lists.

If not for Moses’s falloff on the playoffs, you’d have to consider him here as he had a season doing typically Moses things while playing every game of the season at 42 minutes per game. Western can also look at Dr. J had one of his two most impressive on-off seasons with the Sixers in 1982.

But overall, I have to go with Magic who showed why he would go on to become e such a preeminent impact force in the ‘80s.

RPOY votes:

1. Magic Johnson—best player on a title team; he showed consistency throughout the season with no dips
2. Moses Malone—if it were the just regular season, then I can see him as the best player but the playoffs left much to be desired. It might not be fair to to him, though.
3. Dr. J—showed all,around impact via his strengths even though his scoring was tailing
4. Larry Bird—had another playoff drop but the non-stop motor with a variety of skills on both sides of the ball have him up here as he was the best player on a team that won the most in the regular season.
5. Kareem—still the remarkable offensive consistency but was no longer the best player on his team. You could see a bit of his athleticism fade, was a little bit slower, but of course ameliorated for it by possessing a shot that could not be stopped.

[B-Mitch 30]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson

Considering how well Magic played this year, coming off his knee injury from last season, it makes you wonder if we missed out on an even more athletic version of him. The Lakers had one of the best offenses in the league and won the championship, with Magic being 2nd in assists and 9th in offensive rebounds, while averaging 18.6 points per game on an eFG that was higher than the NBA’s average true shooting percentage.

2. Alex English

The only other team with an offense arguably better than the Lakers however, were the Nuggets, and English was their main scorer and distributor. English averaged an amazing 25.4 point per game, while being 15th in eFG and shooting 84% from the free throw line, as he started in every one of Denver’s games.

3. George Gervin

The Spurs also had a great offense this year, and unlike the last few seasons, actually saw some success in the playoffs. Gervin was clearly the main driving force behind that, attempting the most field goals, and averaging the most points in the NBA, on 50% shooting from the field and 86.4% on his free throws. His efficiency dropped off quite a bit in the playoffs, and his passing wasn’t great, but I think the Spurs results speak for themselves.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Jack Sikma

The Supersonics had one of the best defenses in the league, with no real holes to speak of. Sikma was 1st in defensive rebounds, and 2nd on the team in steals and blocks, averaging over 1 per game for each.

2. Rick Mahorn

The Bullets made it into the playoffs almost entirely on the backs of their defense, where Mahorn was 10th in defensive rebounds and 11th in blocks.

3. Sidney Moncrief

The Bucks were even more well rounded than the Supersonics, and Moncrief was the best rebounder on the team (albeit thanks to his offensive rebounds, rather than defensive rebounding) and 17th in steals.

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson

In addition to being the best passer and one of the most efficient scorers in the league, Magic also led the NBA in steals. While the Lakers only had a good, not great, defense this year, I think Magic’s contributions on both sides of the court make him the obvious first choice.

2. Julius Erving

Even though Doctor J is no longer in the top three of offensive or defensive players this season, his two-way impact is still one of the best in the league, and unlike some other candidates, his efficiency in the playoffs remained excellent, as the Sixers once again came close to beating the Lakers.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Kareem is now playing a more secondary role next to Magic, even if a lot of people at the time hadn’t realized it. Even so, he was still hyper efficient at scoring, a good rebounder, and one of the best shot blockers in the NBA.

4. George Gervin

Compared to his regular season, Gervin’s playoff stats were kind of middling, but lots of other candidates this year either had their stats fall sharply (Larry Bird) or had good stats, but failed to make much headway (Dan Issel). Besides a large drop in efficiency, Gervin managed to keep up a huge scoring volume and lead the Spurs to the second round.

5. Sidney Moncrief

In addition to being their best defender, Moncrief also led the Bucks in assists, and was a very efficient 19.8 points per game scorer. In the playoffs, his scoring volume and efficiency dropped, but the Bucks did come close to beating the Sixers.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Moses Malone - 1st Team All-NBA. MVP. Moses had one of the finest big man seasons in history. He left everyone so far in the dust in the RS that someone would have to have a great PS to pass him and this was a bit of a weak year as far as playoff runs go. Honestly an easy #1 for me and surprisingly others are not so high on Moses. Especially considering he lost to a better Sonics team in the PS so it's not like the team choked. Hard for me to blame a guy averaging over 9 offensive rebounds a game too much. Averaged 31.1/14.7/1.8 on 57.6 %TS (+3.7 rTS) in the RS and then 24.0/17.0/3.3 on 48.9 %TS (-1.6 rTS) in the PS.

2. Julius Erving - 1st Team All-NBA. The Doctor had one of his best RS with the Sixers and then a terrific PS run to follow it once again outplayed Bird H2H as his Sixers defeated the Celtics and then was probably the best individual performer in the Finals as well. Averaged 24.4/6.9/3.9 on 59.3 %TS (+5.4 rTS) in the RS then 22.0/7.4/4.7 on 58.1 %TS (+6.1 rTS) in the PS.

3. Magic Johnson - 2nd Team All-NBA. Anchored the NBA's best offense but wasn't yet a bonafide superstar as he would be in latter years. Still a turnover prone player who couldn't punish defense with individual scoring. And he couldn't really impact the defense in any significant way. He and Kareem were 1a/1b in impact rather than Magic being the lead guy. Magic averaged 18.6/9.6/9.5 on 59.0 %TS (+5.1 rTS) in the RS then 17.4/11.3/9.3 on 61.4 %TS (+8.7 rTS) in the PS.

4. Larry Bird - 1st Team All-NBA. Compared to Magic, Bird had a better RS and then had a comparably worse PS. As someone who values the PS more (especially with a title), that gives Magic the definite nod over Bird. Bird was just too inefficient scoring the ball and whatever advantages he has defensively cannot make up for it. Averaged 22.9/10.9/5.8 on 55.7 %TS (+1.8 rTS) in the RS then 17.8/12.5/5.6 on 47.4 %TS (-4.8 rTS) in the PS.

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Kareem was the same player as in surrounding years but had a down year statistically and so missed out on all accolades. However, we know that the Sixers game-planned to stop Kareem so he was still a major impact player and the second best big in the league after Moses. He still brought extraordinary value to his team even as he was getting up in age (35 in the PS). In the playoffs, he was quite good defensively averaging 3.2 bpg so his offensive numbers are underrating his contributions. Averaged 23.9/8.7/3.0 on 60.8 %TS (+6.9 rTS) in the RS then 20.4/8.5/3.6 on 55.0 %TS (+2.3 rTS) in the PS.

OPOY

1. Moses Malone

2. Magic Johnson

3. Julius Erving

Mostly the same order as POY because in the last few years, none of the top guys are particularly standout defenders. I see Erving as considerably better on defense than Magic which gives him the overall edge but Magic as better on offense.

DPOY

1. Bobby Jones - All time great on D who made a big difference in the RS and PS.

2. Jack Sikma - Anchored a good Sonics D.

3. Sidney Moncrief - Ended up winning DPOY the very next year. Probably the most important defender on the Bucks despite being a little guy.

[One_and_Done]

1. Magic.
This is a pretty easy pick for me. The offense went back to the showtime offense originally envisioned by Jack McKinney, and the Lakers dominated on their way to a title as a result. Magic was the best player on the Lakers, and the most impactful player in the league when considering his RS and PS combined.

2. Bird.
Bird’s franchise altering impact, starting in 1980, continued this year. I only give Magic the edge because Bird had a disappointing playoffs.

3. Dr J
He was not longer his mid-late 70s self, but Erving was still an incredibly impactful player on both ends who as usual led his team to great results.

4. Kareem
Kareem had transitioned to a different stage of his career by this point, but he was still more impactful than the other guys. He had to sacrifice some stats because of the calibre of team he was on, but when it mattered he stepped up.

5. Gervin
I wanted to go with Moncrief or Moses here, but honestly I’m just not feeling it. Moses put up big stats, so did a lot of guys like Dantley or Alex English, but his team won 46 games and no his support cast wasn’t as bad as people might make out. Gervin probably had less help, and he got his destitute team to 48 wins and a 2nd round loss to the far superior Lakers outfit. Moncrief is your classic “gives you more than the stats suggest” guy, and he did a good job of carrying the Bucks in Marques absence. That said, I’m not sure what he did was as impressive as Gervin given the difference in support casts.

HM: Moncrief, Moses

[AEnigma]

In one year Moses will replace Caldwell and Dawkins and be the clear best player on those 76ers while upgrade them to all-time team status. Meanwhile, the Rockets completely fall apart after replacing him with Caldwell Jones. There is other roster turnover too, most notably Robert Reid, but when he returns in 1984, alongside Lewis Lloyd and rookie Ralph Sampson, the team is still dreadful.

By of course Gervin was the one with the destitute cast.

[One_and_Done]

How many games do you think the Spurs are winning minus Gervin? Not many.

The Rockets lost Reid & Dunleavy, and Elvin Hayes fell off a cliff as he hit age 37. C.Murphy went from 33 to 34. C.Jones was still a good defensive role player, but even he was 32, and the team had no offensive creators left. Plus the Rockets ownership tanked. They were notorious for it, not just for how badly they tanked but because they did it 2 years in a row.

Moses should get alot of credit for carrying the Rockets as much as he did, but I don't believe he was giving them 32 wins or anything close to that. There's little in the first 8 years of his career to suggest that kind of impact, despite evidence across 4 different franchises and 2 separate leagues.