current Luka Doncic vs Prime James Harden?

[ShotCreator]

I think when they're both healthy, at their best (19-21 Harden, 2022-24 Luka) they're mostly equal. Even in the playoffs. I'd probably give the edge to Harden tbh due to being more disruptive offensively in the way he was defended, and yet to me more portable when he was in Brooklyn and led the greatest offense ever.

Defensively I think Harden has a bit of an edge to but according to impact metrics Luka's consistently a good playoff defender save for 2020 so I may call it a wash. But this is really close now. People somehow thought Luka was better in 2020 itself. If you look back at the old RPOY voting. Harden had much more substance to his game on both ends. But now from 2023 on Luka's offense has leveled up a bit. Ironically he did have by far his worst postseason run last year though so that's something to watch.

[Texas Chuck]

Even in the playoffs, I'd probably give the edge to Harden tbh due to being more disruptive offensively in the way he was defended, and yet to me more portable when he was in Brooklyn and led the greatest offense ever.

I mean Luka has consistently upped his game come the playoffs. Harden has, well not. I think there is a clear argument for Harden but its based on how durable and effective he was in the regular season. Luka hasn't been as healthy nor as consistent. But when the games start mattering the most, Luka handles pretty much everything in front on him, including this past year where even with terrible health, he kept taking his team forward. Harden has high profile fail after fail. Including this season against....Luka.

Stunned to hear someone suggest they are giving Harden an edge because of playoffs.

[ShotCreator]

Even in the playoffs, I'd probably give the edge to Harden tbh due to being more disruptive offensively in the way he was defended, and yet to me more portable when he was in Brooklyn and led the greatest offense ever.

I mean Luka has consistently upped his game come the playoffs. Harden has, well not. I think there is a clear argument for Harden but its based on how durable and effective he was in the regular season. Luka hasn't been as healthy nor as consistent. But when the games start mattering the most, Luka handles pretty much everything in front on him, including this past year where even with terrible health, he kept taking his team forward. Harden has high profile fail after fail. Including this season against....Luka.

Stunned to hear someone suggest they are giving Harden an edge because of playoffs.

High profile fail after fail...Fail at what? No offense that's just casual fan level nonsense.

If you look at Harden's playoff runs from 18-21, especially 19-21, it's pretty high level. On both ends.

20 Harden gets spam doubled from 30 feet away and still dominates against LA. He gets on the 21 Nets where there's less defensive attention for the first time in a decade and he absolutely scorches the earth until his hamstring tears.

Harden was a dominant full season player. And it really says a lot about:

1) How loaded the top of the NBA was in Harden's prime compared to now

2) How pervasive fan narratives are when it comes to a guys perception

that you could post that and feel no pressure or wrongness when you post it.

I'm not attacking you when I ask this because I feel literally only Rockets fans, me and maybe a few others actually paid attention to Harden post-2018, pre-2021, do you have any specific opinions on 19-21 Harden? Any noteworthy observations? Most people don't. Harden was assumed to be a lower top 10 NBA player by 2020 with absolutely nothing to back that up. There was a lot going on. A lot of substance to his game and it held up in the postseason in a big way.

I'll end it with this, Harden got MUCH more praise from fans in his worst prime season by far in 2021(Only due to effort, mentality and role), because somehow it was put in people's heads Harden wasn't a pure passer or unselfish player because of how dominant his scoring was.

It's absurd. Anyway, Harden plainly and obviously a monster in the playoffs in this stretch.

Edit: And by the way, I agree Luka was better in the PS than RS from 2020 to 2023, but it's upping from a lower level of play than Harden was at in the RS. It's a wash to me at best for Luka. But I really believe Harden was more dynamic on both ends. As evidenced in how they were defended.

[Texas Chuck]

yep, a guy who has 100k posts on an NBA forum completely ignored James Harden and is clearly just a casual observer.... You can disagree with me, but telling me I just make stuff up means further exchange is pointless. Good day.

[ShotCreator]

yep, a guy who has 100k posts on an NBA forum completely ignored James Harden and is clearly just a casual observer.... You can disagree with me, but telling me I just make stuff up means further exchange is pointless. Good day.

I mean, if you did pay close attention to Harden..Tell me what you saw, I'm asking you.

Otherwise, I mean those were some casual takes to make man, lol. There's no other way for me to put it.

Seriously though, there was no James Harden hype by 2020. He had no first place MVP votes. The Rockets were a middling playoff team. The Warriors vs. Rockets narrative was dead. You were paying above casual level of attention to James Harden in 2020?

I'll tell you right now, I would bet any amount of money more people were into watching Luka that year. The fresh new guy. I watched just as much of Luka as Harden for the first time and I probably enjoyed it more myself. But Luka got off to a blazing start and slowly got figured out by the leaguer a bit and wasn't the preposterous beast he was in November, December, and Jamuary by the time the playoffs started.

I'll end with this:

All in their actual primes or close in 2020:

Kawhi
PG
Davis
LeBron
Giannis
Butler
Jokic
Lillard
Luka
Gobert
Embiid

...


then Harden

As I said, there was a different level of competition at the top of the NBA in this period. A new Luka Doncic and Mavs. Jokic going to the WCF, Kawhi dominates with the Clippers coming off a title run, Giannis the MVP, Gobert the DPOY, Butler playing like an animal in the East. Then finally you get LeBron and Davis trampling the West on the way to a title.

Where does one have time to pay attention to Harden's defensive awareness and sharpness on rotations or the absurdity of how he's defended on the middling Rockets who aren't a top seed? Because that's what this comparison comes down to.

And very few are paying close attention to a guy they know won't win MVP or a title.

[Texas Chuck]

I mean, if you did pay close attention to Harden..Tell me what you saw, I'm asking you.

Otherwise, I mean those were some casual takes to make man, lol. There's no other way for me to put it.

Seriously though, there was no James Harden hype by 2020. He had no first place MVP votes. The Rockets were a middling playoff team. The Warriors vs. Rockets narrative was dead. You were paying above casual level of attention to James Harden in 2020?

I saw one of the most brutally effective regular season offensive players the league has ever seen.


Why do I care about hype? What is the relevance to me? I pay close attention to the league as a whole. Which would include one of its best players.

Yeah I watched more Luka. I'm a Mavs fan. I watch all their games. Like everyone else, including you, I simply can't watch every game of every other player. If that's your unreasonable requirement for my take to not be casual, yeah I guess my Harden takes are casual lol.

[AEnigma]

The 2020 Rockets were one of the most nationally televised teams in the league.

[Special_Puppy]

This is Luka and this is not close because of the playoffs or the huge number of playoff meltdown by Harden in his career

Saying its not close is insane. James Harden is becoming super underrated

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Neither Doncic nor Harden could defend.

Regular season prime Harden with the refs giving Harden phantom gift defensive fouls on his defenders was better on offense than regular season Doncic.


But when the playoff refs swallow thei whistles and Harden keeps on driving into defenders expecting phantom gift calls Doncic who tries more to put the ball in the basket instead of working the refs is the Better playoff performer.

What made Harden loved more than shooting and passing was the look on defenders faces when he suckered the refs into making a bad BS phantom call on the defenders but playing for the foul calls backfired on Harden when the playoff refs swallowed their whistles.

[Archx]

Neither Doncic nor Harden could defend.

Regular season prime Harden with the refs

I mean, he was pretty good through western conference playoffs. You don't need to listen, you can just watch. Also he had great individual 1v1 defensive FG%. Mavs had semi good offense and struggled a lot of times duo to Luka's injury, but they won multiple games behind their great defensive effort which included Luka aswell.

Point is, Luka can defend very well if he wants to and if he is not limping all over the court like he did in the finals.

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[ShotCreator]

I want to bump this to note just how poor Luka has been to start this season and how this is a common theme in his career. Prime Harden had no such theme.

Things like this get taken for granted in this comparison. It shouldn't be controversial for me to say Harden was clearly better than Doncic has ever been in the RS, and in the playoffs it's pretty close. Harden takes a little step back against elite playoff teams, Luka takes a little step up.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Im befuddled at how and why Ben Taylor, Sam Vincie, Jason Timph, Tim Legler just excuse all of the poor habits that Luka has developed. He is one of the worst defenders in the NBA. Im shocked at how their are some in the media who will say Luka is neck and neck with Jokic right now for best player in the league and i gotta say Luka isnt even better than prime Harden. If he is.. than i want to know AT WHAT.. oh the mid-range.. NO, YOU CANT SAY SOMEONE IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER PLAYER, when that player opts to cut that part of their game out due to analytics


LOOK AT THESE EXCUSES. OH NO luka is INJURED.. smh. Tim Hardaway said that lukas teammates dont like him, and that the team loves when he is out of the lineup. Im starting to see that maybe their is some truth to that. Harden has been on multiple teams and not once have you heard a teammate refer to harden that way. Whats funny is its actually the opposite, players like maxey, cam thomas, zubac, powell, nic claxton all thank harden for helping them enhance their career. While its the media espn/fs1 that call harden a "locker room cancer"or at worst a selfish star who will never win. In fact the players have actually voted for harden mcp 3x lol, and it was the media that were againist him.. till this day

all the players that harden has beefed with chris paul, dwight howard were already considered "locker room problems" before they had even become teammates with james.. we remmeber cp3 vs deandre/blake, and howard vs kobe/nash

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