AB the PG development thread

[Skybox]

Haha I think this about covers it!

That article Fawzan wrote is absolutely saturated with knowledge. Anyone having doubts about AB should read it, I'm curious if it moves the needle.

It moves, but not in the way you want it to move.

During Black's rookie season, he was limited to nearly non-existent usage within the playbook. This means Jamahl Mosley did less than the bare minimum in helping create pathways to encapsulate more extensive offensive success. Most of Black's scoring came from him having to fend for himself versus having his number called within set plays. This, it's fair to say, was not necessarily an ideal environment in which to develop. But Black kept working and has showcased signs of individual improvement as a scorer and facilitator during his sophomore preseason.

Thats the core of the argument you are having with Knightro. You are arguing different things. Knightro writes Black didnt run our offense last year, and you respond by writing he was listed as a point guard. Both things are true at the same time.

That's a slippery reframe of the discussion. We weren't arguing different things. Knightro effectively said that AB wasn't being developed as a point guard, wasn't a point guard, and wouldn't be a point guard. He doubled down on this by making the bet about Cole Anthony leading AB in every play making statistic, and said that there's no evidence that AB could take over Ingles playmaking responsibilities. He thinks that he's a wing not a point guard. Every piece of evidence I presented that he was a playmaker was poo pooed.

We know what you both said...there's 40 pages of it across 10 threads

[Knightro]

That's a slippery reframe of the discussion. We weren't arguing different things. Knightro effectively said that AB wasn't being developed as a point guard, wasn't a point guard, and wouldn't be a point guard. He doubled down on this by making the bet about Cole Anthony leading AB in every play making statistic, and said that there's no evidence that AB could take over Ingles playmaking responsibilities. He thinks that he's a wing not a point guard. Every piece of evidence I presented that he was a playmaker was poo pooed.

Nope.

I did not say Anthony Black would never be used as a point guard or wouldn't ever become a point guard. That is just not a truthful representation of what our arguments were.

The fact that you obviously think that, however, that does help explain a lot the stupidity of those debates.

All I ever said, correctly, that he wasn't used as a point guard/facilitator/playmaker basically at all during his rookie year which is no questions asked factually true.

I was also certainly skeptical that after a full year of basically no meaningful point guard reps that he would be ready to assume those duties in year 2 (and we'll see how that plays out btw once games actually start mattering), but I never at all one time suggested Anthony Black would never be a point guard in the NBA.

[thelead]

It moves, but not in the way you want it to move.



Thats the core of the argument you are having with Knightro. You are arguing different things. Knightro writes Black didnt run our offense last year, and you respond by writing he was listed as a point guard. Both things are true at the same time.

That's a slippery reframe of the discussion. We weren't arguing different things. Knightro effectively said that AB wasn't being developed as a point guard, wasn't a point guard, and wouldn't be a point guard. He doubled down on this by making the bet about Cole Anthony leading AB in every play making statistic, and said that there's no evidence that AB could take over Ingles playmaking responsibilities. He thinks that he's a wing not a point guard. Every piece of evidence I presented that he was a playmaker was poo pooed.

We know what you both said...there's 40 pages of it across 10 threads

Truth. Ad nauseam.

[eyriq]

That's a slippery reframe of the discussion. We weren't arguing different things. Knightro effectively said that AB wasn't being developed as a point guard, wasn't a point guard, and wouldn't be a point guard. He doubled down on this by making the bet about Cole Anthony leading AB in every play making statistic, and said that there's no evidence that AB could take over Ingles playmaking responsibilities. He thinks that he's a wing not a point guard. Every piece of evidence I presented that he was a playmaker was poo pooed.

Nope.

I did not say Anthony Black would never be used as a point guard or wouldn't ever become a point guard. That is just not a truthful representation of what our arguments were.

The fact that you obviously think that, however, that does help explain a lot the stupidity of those debates.

All I ever said, correctly, that he wasn't used as a point guard/facilitator/playmaker basically at all during his rookie year which is no questions asked factually true.

I was also certainly skeptical that after a full year of basically no meaningful point guard reps that he would be ready to assume those duties in year 2 (and we'll see how that plays out btw once games actually start mattering), but I never at all one time suggested Anthony Black would never be a point guard in the NBA.

Fine, I definitely see red when we discuss this so perhaps I've misconstrued your POV.

[JoshuaPotter]

That's a slippery reframe of the discussion. We weren't arguing different things. Knightro effectively said that AB wasn't being developed as a point guard, wasn't a point guard, and wouldn't be a point guard. He doubled down on this by making the bet about Cole Anthony leading AB in every play making statistic, and said that there's no evidence that AB could take over Ingles playmaking responsibilities. He thinks that he's a wing not a point guard. Every piece of evidence I presented that he was a playmaker was poo pooed.

Nope.

I did not say Anthony Black would never be used as a point guard or wouldn't ever become a point guard. That is just not a truthful representation of what our arguments were.

The fact that you obviously think that, however, that does help explain a lot the stupidity of those debates.

All I ever said, correctly, that he wasn't used as a point guard/facilitator/playmaker basically at all during his rookie year which is no questions asked factually true.

I was also certainly skeptical that after a full year of basically no meaningful point guard reps that he would be ready to assume those duties in year 2 (and we'll see how that plays out btw once games actually start mattering), but I never at all one time suggested Anthony Black would never be a point guard in the NBA.

Fine, I definitely see red when we discuss this so perhaps I've misconstrued your POV.

Honestly I am having way to much fun with all of this.

Knightro seemed at some point to double, triple and quadruple down on Black.
Eyriq is all in on Black. I am all in as well. Well always look like homers. There is no going back.

[eyriq]

Read on Twitter

[JoshuaPotter]

Read on Twitter

Not enough analysis, random bot poster must be AI, homer post, biased post, usage rate was too low last season, garbage minutes, pre-season isn't real season, must be a wing and not a PG, never was a PG in his career, position less basketball, Fultz a broomstick was clearly better all last season, Mosely only plays players that can contribute and is never wrong therefore Black stinks, immature player (see black dick jersey swap), to slow for G, to thin for F.

[VFX]

What you are arguing is semantics at this point.

Anthony Black is not the point guard on the floor if he’s next to Cole Anthony and another guard. That makes him a point forward or defensive wing as a secondary playmaker. Is he bringing the ball up and calling plays? Remains to be seen outside of a handful of examples in transition.

The only evidence we have at this point is a stretch of games last season with him starting and preseason because “Cole was sick”. We will see. There no evidence either way to assume he’s the first “point guard” off the bench.

And no, splitting minutes with Cole as they take turns doesn’t help the case. That’s just Mosely throwing **** at the wall and hoping it works.

[JoshuaPotter]

What you are arguing is semantics at this point.

Anthony Black is not the point guard on the floor if he’s next to Cole Anthony and another guard. That makes him a point forward or defensive wing as a secondary playmaker. Is he bringing the ball up and calling plays? Remains to be seen outside of a handful of examples in transition.

The only evidence we have at this point is a stretch of games last season with him starting and preseason because “Cole was sick”. We will see. There no evidence either way to assume he’s the first “point guard” off the bench.

And no, splitting minutes with Cole as they take turns doesn’t help the case. That’s just Mosely throwing **** at the wall and hoping it works.

This is what I have been saying the whole time.

[Knightro]

I'm still extremely skeptical that Cole is going to just stand on the wing and do nothing while Black initiates halfcourt offense btw.

We'll see how it shakes out, but Black's already the better catch-and-shoot player of the two and Cole loves to pound the ball...

[eyriq]

I'm really curious to see his development in contrast to Amen, Ausar, and Castle. Amen and Ausar because of draft proximity, Castle because of similarity in skill sets.

[JoshuaPotter]

I'm really curious to see his development in contrast to Amen, Ausar, and Castle. Amen and Ausar because of draft proximity, Castle because of similarity in skill sets.

Keyonte man.....Keyonte...

[eyriq]

I'm really curious to see his development in contrast to Amen, Ausar, and Castle. Amen and Ausar because of draft proximity, Castle because of similarity in skill sets.

Keyonte man.....Keyonte...

Jett gets the Keyonte comp for me

[VFX]

I'm really curious to see his development in contrast to Amen, Ausar, and Castle. Amen and Ausar because of draft proximity, Castle because of similarity in skill sets.

Ausar Thompson - 63- Games played 25- mpg
Amen Thompson - 62- Games played 23- mpg
Anthony Black - 69- Games played 17- mpg

That the major difference in their development. I will also bet Castle gets more than 15-17mpg THIS season. Amen Thompson will have a more difficult time fighting for minutes on that roster with Green, FVV and selecting Reed.

[eyriq]

I'm really curious to see his development in contrast to Amen, Ausar, and Castle. Amen and Ausar because of draft proximity, Castle because of similarity in skill sets.

Ausar Thompson - 63- Games played 25- mpg
Amen Thompson - 62- Games played 23- mpg
Anthony Black - 69- Games played 17- mpg

That the major difference in their development. I will also bet Castle gets more than 15-17mpg THIS season.

Yeah, opportunity is one factor I want to track. What do you think the key driver is for Amen, Ausar, and Castle having the edge there?

[VFX]

I'm really curious to see his development in contrast to Amen, Ausar, and Castle. Amen and Ausar because of draft proximity, Castle because of similarity in skill sets.

Ausar Thompson - 63- Games played 25- mpg
Amen Thompson - 62- Games played 23- mpg
Anthony Black - 69- Games played 17- mpg

That the major difference in their development. I will also bet Castle gets more than 15-17mpg THIS season.

Yeah, opportunity is one factor I want to track. What do you think the key driver is for Amen, Ausar, and Castle having the edge there?

Ausar will get significantly more opportunities because Pistons roster is arguably trash.

Amen might have a more difficult time considering the youth + FVV and roster construction. Reed is more important to develop IMO.

Castle will be closer to Orlando’s situation where they have to weigh development vs short term wins with guys like Jones and Paul taking a lot of minutes. Thing about him though is that he is good enough defensively that he’s going to get backup SG minutes behind Vassell. The rest of their SG rotation isn’t good enough for him not to.

[eyriq]

Ausar will get significantly more opportunities because Pistons roster is arguably trash.

Amen might have a more difficult time considering the youth + FVV and roster construction. Reed is more important to develop IMO.

Castle will be closer to Orlando’s situation where they have to weigh development vs short term wins with guys like Jones and Paul taking a lot of minutes. Thing about him though is that he is good enough defensively that he’s going to get backup SG minutes behind Vassell. The rest of their SG rotation isn’t good enough for him not to.

Yeah, that makes sense, team competitiveness will drive opportunities.

Something else that will be interesting with the Castle comp is that he's got one of the GOAT point guards as a mentor. How big of a boost is that? My baseline assumption is that AB is the better prospect all-else being equal.

[pepe1991]

Ausar Thompson - 63- Games played 25- mpg
Amen Thompson - 62- Games played 23- mpg
Anthony Black - 69- Games played 17- mpg

That the major difference in their development. I will also bet Castle gets more than 15-17mpg THIS season.

Yeah, opportunity is one factor I want to track. What do you think the key driver is for Amen, Ausar, and Castle having the edge there?

Ausar will get significantly more opportunities because Pistons roster is arguably trash.

Amen might have a more difficult time considering the youth + FVV and roster construction. Reed is more important to develop IMO.

Castle will be closer to Orlando’s situation where they have to weigh development vs short term wins with guys like Jones and Paul taking a lot of minutes. Thing about him though is that he is good enough defensively that he’s going to get backup SG minutes behind Vassell. The rest of their SG rotation isn’t good enough for him not to.

Twins aren't guards in nba tho.

Amen has some passing vision but with fundamentally broken jumpshot he will never be playmaker in nba.
I once made something that at times sounded like a joke, even to me, that Ausar is 6'6 center. I'm not sure that is joke now
Guy is no 3 and D player. Elite athlete, elite defensive potential, but just flat out nothing on offense, if he can't dunk it.
Fun fact, out of 232 FGM, 79 were dunks. Guy is 6'6- 6'7.

Castle is only player here mentioned with guard skillset. But Spurs do have two capable PGs. Given they are all in for Vemby, Castle will probably play some backup SG as you said. Tbh i'm firm beliver Castle will push Jones out of rotation or on trade block very fast. Pop loves defense , size, shooting and playing within system, Tre can't provide 3 out of 4.
Pop once said George Hill was his favorite player, well Castle seems to be his copy. PG-SG who understands game, plays with and without ball ,has size for both positions , can keep dribble alive, doesn't do anything dumb. Sounds like Pop's sweetheart.

[eyriq]

Yeah, opportunity is one factor I want to track. What do you think the key driver is for Amen, Ausar, and Castle having the edge there?

Ausar will get significantly more opportunities because Pistons roster is arguably trash.

Amen might have a more difficult time considering the youth + FVV and roster construction. Reed is more important to develop IMO.

Castle will be closer to Orlando’s situation where they have to weigh development vs short term wins with guys like Jones and Paul taking a lot of minutes. Thing about him though is that he is good enough defensively that he’s going to get backup SG minutes behind Vassell. The rest of their SG rotation isn’t good enough for him not to.

Twins aren't guards in nba tho.

Amen has some passing vision but with fundamentally broken jumpshot he will never be playmaker in nba.
I once made something that at times sounded like a joke, even to me, that Ausar is 6'6 center. I'm not sure that is joke now
Guy is no 3 and D player. Elite athlete, elite defensive potential, but just flat out nothing on offense, if he can't dunk it.
Fun fact, out of 232 FGM, 79 were dunks. Guy is 6'6- 6'7.

Castle is only player here mentioned with guard skillset. But Spurs do have two capable PGs. Given they are all in for Vemby, Castle will probably play some backup SG as you said. Tbh i'm firm beliver Castle will push Jones out of rotation or on trade block very fast. Pop loves defense , size, shooting and playing within system, Tre can't provide 3 out of 4.
Pop once said George Hill was his favorite player, well Castle seems to be his copy. PG-SG who understands game, plays with and without ball ,has size for both positions , can keep dribble alive, doesn't do anything dumb. Sounds like Pop's sweetheart.

That's a fair assessment on Amen and Ausar I think. AB turning out to be the best PG of the group will be a huge win in my books. Amen was considered a PG prospect and Ausar was considered to have higher defensive upside. AB shooting well, guarding PGs better, and getting more assists will be fabulous.

[pepe1991]

Ausar will get significantly more opportunities because Pistons roster is arguably trash.

Amen might have a more difficult time considering the youth + FVV and roster construction. Reed is more important to develop IMO.

Castle will be closer to Orlando’s situation where they have to weigh development vs short term wins with guys like Jones and Paul taking a lot of minutes. Thing about him though is that he is good enough defensively that he’s going to get backup SG minutes behind Vassell. The rest of their SG rotation isn’t good enough for him not to.

Twins aren't guards in nba tho.

Amen has some passing vision but with fundamentally broken jumpshot he will never be playmaker in nba.
I once made something that at times sounded like a joke, even to me, that Ausar is 6'6 center. I'm not sure that is joke now
Guy is no 3 and D player. Elite athlete, elite defensive potential, but just flat out nothing on offense, if he can't dunk it.
Fun fact, out of 232 FGM, 79 were dunks. Guy is 6'6- 6'7.

Castle is only player here mentioned with guard skillset. But Spurs do have two capable PGs. Given they are all in for Vemby, Castle will probably play some backup SG as you said. Tbh i'm firm beliver Castle will push Jones out of rotation or on trade block very fast. Pop loves defense , size, shooting and playing within system, Tre can't provide 3 out of 4.
Pop once said George Hill was his favorite player, well Castle seems to be his copy. PG-SG who understands game, plays with and without ball ,has size for both positions , can keep dribble alive, doesn't do anything dumb. Sounds like Pop's sweetheart.

That's a fair assessment on Amen and Ausar I think. AB turning out to be the best PG of the group will be a huge win in my books. Amen was considered a PG prospect and Ausar was considered to have higher defensive upside. AB shooting well, guarding PGs better, and getting more assists will be fabulous.

Amen was better and more impactful player than Black in rookie year.
Guy has legit tools to be top 3-5 defender at wings, his rebounding for size and position is above average. His off ball movment is something nobody expected to be this good ,probably including Houston. He has passing vision and accuracy.

But his shooting is simply garbage.

Bit crazy to consider his skillset is similar to Draymoond Green. On team with Segun, Green, Vleet that's a such a valuable asset.

I'm not fan of Ausar. Scrap that. I just feel sorry for whoever ends up on Pistons.
On other side , i will probably watch Spurs more than i expected just to watch Castle. Love that guy.