PG: Knicks vs Celtics: Season opener!

[3toheadmelo]

yeah but the difference is Fat Kat didn't say if it was mainly just Randle for KAT he didn't want KAT. He was specifically talking about Minny trading KAT for draft capital. I still have yet to see a trade rumor for Randle that involved us receiving a good package. That is the point. If you wanted Randle gone you probably needed to acquire a flawed players to some extent as well. Its just how trades work...it doesn't take a genius to realize Randle's trade value didn't match his production. Just go to any opposing fan viewpoint. He's probably the only multiple time all-nba player that probably wouldn't even get 1st round draft capital back in return.

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The reason the Melo point doesn't make sense is we couldn't get Embiid or Giannis with Randle headlining a package. That is comical. I don't even know if Randle held positive trade value around the league. But we still had to replace his productive if we were trading him.

I don't think you can look at a trade as do you want a player or don't want a player. It all depends on value and fit for the team. Meaning I wouldn't want KAT if we had to give up a lot of draft capital...I would be ok with KAT assuming it was mainly for Randle. I think both things can be true.

The only thing comical is believing that KAT had trade value around the league

Towns will turn 29 in November and has missed at least 22 games in four of his last five seasons. He is set to make $49 million this season and has a $61 million player option in 2027-28. That salary made the market for him quite tepid, team sources said. If KAT were to get injured again or the Timberwolves took a step back competitively, it might have been difficult to move him.

Randle had way more trade value than KAT.

During Monday's episode of The Hoop Collective, ESPN's Brian Windhorst reported that Randle's reasonable salary makes him a moveable piece and that the team still has other assets to make another splashy transaction.

"Because of that $29 million salary, he is extraordinarily tradable," Windhorst said. "The Knicks still do have a couple of first-round picks that they can move."

KAT isn’t getting you Giannis or Embiid

Who said KAT is getting you Giannis or Embiid?

And where has there been one team linked to wanting to trade for Randle? It wasn't until we added Donte in the trade that Minny even decided to bite on Randle for KAT. I legit just shared a article from the athletic from a warriors beat writer that said GSW wanted KAT but couldn't give what Minny wanted in terms of talent.

You can't just throw out a statement that Randle had way more value than KAT and have nothing to back up that statement. I literally quoted a

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

[stuporman]

The imagined deal for a player that would never happen anyway is always what people use to criticize what actually has happened.

that is the ultimate disconnect I am seeing.

We had 3 things:

Extend Randle (clearly that wasn't in the cards)

Keep Randle (with knicks current cap situation you could have done that for one year but you potentially risk losing his production for nothing) - and we couldn't have another Ihart situation where we lose a player and get nothing in return.

Trade Randle (you probably aren't going to get a flawless player in this scenario but you also need to potentially replace 20pts 10 boards on the books). It challenging but that is where you might have to make sacrifices in getting the perfect player or the best player we can get under those circumstances.

I understand having issues with a player, deal or whatever and voicing them but to use something imagined with no real shot of happening has always been the prop as the 'better' thing and is impossible to discuss.

The Knicks not having the defensive anchor of either Mitch or iHart is the biggest change from last season. KAT for Randle is a wash in some ways but also a better switch in others. Divo's production looks like it will be filled by Deuce quite nicely.

MB will come around just fine and Hart will find his role eventually, so getting better defensive cohesion will be what determines the ceiling of the Knicks this season, barring any other additions or changes.

The picks being gone and KAT's contract is probably the biggest stumbling blocks to any future changes though and that is something we can debate, for sure.

[mpharris36]

The only thing comical is believing that KAT had trade value around the league


Randle had way more trade value than KAT.


KAT isn’t getting you Giannis or Embiid

Who said KAT is getting you Giannis or Embiid?

And where has there been one team linked to wanting to trade for Randle? It wasn't until we added Donte in the trade that Minny even decided to bite on Randle for KAT. I legit just shared a article from the athletic from a warriors beat writer that said GSW wanted KAT but couldn't give what Minny wanted in terms of talent.

You can't just throw out a statement that Randle had way more value than KAT and have nothing to back up that statement. I literally quoted a

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

Ok Ill play that game. Who on Miami are we getting. Because there is zero chance Miami would trade Bam for Randle he's one of the best bigs in the NBA. I also don't think Miami trades Herro for Randle either that would make zero sense for them.

So now we are talking Rozier + Duncan Robinson. I'm not saying a team wouldn't take Randle if it was basically for dirt cheap which is how Miami operates. But who are we getting you have to answer that question. And I don't know is exactly my point. No one was giving an all-star caliber player in return for Randle by himself.

[3toheadmelo]

stop it. nobody thinks randle would be the main piece in a trade for one of those guys. he would be salary filler. the point is we wouldn't complain about a trade that we knew made the team better. you guys yourself aren't sure. or should i search your posts ? lol

Yeah, he’s missing the whole point to argue about semantics

If we got a major upgrade like Giannis/Embiid or someone in that caliber I would be happy as hell and I’m sure you would too.

[mpharris36]

The imagined deal for a player that would never happen anyway is always what people use to criticize what actually has happened.

that is the ultimate disconnect I am seeing.

We had 3 things:

Extend Randle (clearly that wasn't in the cards)

Keep Randle (with knicks current cap situation you could have done that for one year but you potentially risk losing his production for nothing) - and we couldn't have another Ihart situation where we lose a player and get nothing in return.

Trade Randle (you probably aren't going to get a flawless player in this scenario but you also need to potentially replace 20pts 10 boards on the books). It challenging but that is where you might have to make sacrifices in getting the perfect player or the best player we can get under those circumstances.

I understand having issues with a player, deal or whatever and voicing them but to use something imagined with no real shot of happening has always been the prop as the 'better' thing and is impossible to discuss.

The Knicks not having the defensive anchor of either Mitch or iHart is the biggest change from last season. KAT for Randle is a wash in some ways but also a better switch in others. Divo's production looks like it will be filled by Deuce quite nicely.

MB will come around just fine and Hart will find his role eventually, so getting better defensive cohesion will be what determines the ceiling of the Knicks this season, barring any other additions or changes.

The picks being gone and KAT's contract is probably the biggest stumbling blocks to any future changes though and that is something we can debate, for sure.

those are all fair concerns. The alternative with Brunson window was not doing anything...and trying to build off last year with Ihart gone and Mitch hurt for a good part of the year. How do we sustain our level of play with those losses.

I am 100% of the belief the Knicks don't trade for KAT if they bring back Ihart...does anyone disagree with that statement?

[Capn'O]

The only thing comical is believing that KAT had trade value around the league


Randle had way more trade value than KAT.


KAT isn’t getting you Giannis or Embiid

Who said KAT is getting you Giannis or Embiid?

And where has there been one team linked to wanting to trade for Randle? It wasn't until we added Donte in the trade that Minny even decided to bite on Randle for KAT. I legit just shared a article from the athletic from a warriors beat writer that said GSW wanted KAT but couldn't give what Minny wanted in terms of talent.

You can't just throw out a statement that Randle had way more value than KAT and have nothing to back up that statement. I literally quoted a

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

So it sounds like we were dead set on trading Randle after all...

I wonder what's coming back. Atlanta has to be Capella+ and **** that. Detroit? Duren, unprotect their pick, smaller assets and filler? Depends but probably no. Now, Heat. Are we talking Bam or their other crap? If Bam was on the table then we **** up. Butler? Interesting. Maybe. But knowing Riley it was probably their grab bag 2.0 that they tried to move for Lillard. And, again, forget that.

Devil's in the details.

[3toheadmelo]

Who said KAT is getting you Giannis or Embiid?

And where has there been one team linked to wanting to trade for Randle? It wasn't until we added Donte in the trade that Minny even decided to bite on Randle for KAT. I legit just shared a article from the athletic from a warriors beat writer that said GSW wanted KAT but couldn't give what Minny wanted in terms of talent.

You can't just throw out a statement that Randle had way more value than KAT and have nothing to back up that statement. I literally quoted a

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

Ok Ill play that game. Who on Miami are we getting. Because there is zero chance Miami would trade Bam for Randle he's one of the best bigs in the NBA. I also don't think Miami trades Herro for Randle either that would make zero sense for them.

So now we are talking Rozier + Duncan Robinson. I'm not saying a team wouldn't take Randle if it was basically for dirt cheap which is how Miami operates. But who are we getting you have to answer that question. And I don't know is exactly my point. No one was giving an all-star caliber player in return for Randle by himself.

Bruh you still missing the point. I’m not hear to argue about who and what we could’ve gotten for Randle. The truth is no one knows. What sham is saying if we gotten a big time player for Randle, we wouldn’t be complaining. It’s simple as that.

[mpharris36]

stop it. nobody thinks randle would be the main piece in a trade for one of those guys. he would be salary filler. the point is we wouldn't complain about a trade that we knew made the team better. you guys yourself aren't sure. or should i search your posts ? lol

Yeah, he’s missing the whole point to argue about semantics

If we got a major upgrade like Giannis/Embiid or someone in that caliber I would be happy as hell and I’m sure you would too.

How am I missing the point...if either trade was available for Randle and picks you don't think the Knicks would have made that trade already?

I would go as far as say the Knicks would trade Randle and all those picks for Bam...and the Heat would probably laugh us off.

There is no one on this board saying Mikal and KAT are better than Giannis. The point is Giannis was unavailable!!!!

[mpharris36]

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

Ok Ill play that game. Who on Miami are we getting. Because there is zero chance Miami would trade Bam for Randle he's one of the best bigs in the NBA. I also don't think Miami trades Herro for Randle either that would make zero sense for them.

So now we are talking Rozier + Duncan Robinson. I'm not saying a team wouldn't take Randle if it was basically for dirt cheap which is how Miami operates. But who are we getting you have to answer that question. And I don't know is exactly my point. No one was giving an all-star caliber player in return for Randle by himself.

Bruh you still missing the point. I’m not hear to argue about who and what we could’ve gotten for Randle. The truth is no one knows. What sham is saying if we gotten a big time player for Randle, we wouldn’t be complaining. It’s simple as that.

how is this semantics...that WASN'T AVAILABLE!!!

if it was Giannis would be wearing a knicks jersey right now. It takes two to tango.

[Chanel Bomber]

I'm just curious as to who the KAT-trade critics wanted at the 5 with iHart gone and Mitch sidelined.

Randle? Sims?

Precious, ok, but is a KAT-Precious frontcourt any worse than Randle-Precious?

And is Randle even tradable for a superstar like Giannis with a 4-year, 40 million plus contract extension, since you don't want to lose him for nothing?

We'll see how the trade pans out and I'm open to the possibility that my stance on it will be proven wrong.

But the trade that killed our flexibility was the Mikal trade.

Like guano said, it's hard to come up with alternative scenarios from the outside. In part because the team positions itself to go in specific directions. Bridges and Towns were obviously long game targets. If we had, say, prioritized bringing KP back as a long term target we'd have him as we could have easily outbid the Celtics for him at that time. I use him as an example because from what he's said both the will to come back was there and he was obviously available at the time whereas some other guys it's not as clear that they could have been gotten. But that's not where the team's priorities were.

Likewise, if the goal had been to get a rugged 5 to replace iHart if he left, we'd have that either through free agency or trade positioning.

Agreed.

But I'd then say:

- If you wanted the Knicks to go for the likes of Capela or Gobert instead to address the hole at the 5, then propose that as part of your criticism instead of bemoaning that we lost our identity and went for KAT without suggesting a realistic alternative.

- I think Porzingis's injuries would be received very differently here. Boston have more talent and have the better coach, to the point where they can afford injuries to a key player. I think any injury to KP would sink our chances. Still, I think getting him in anticipation to iHart leaving would have been a significant gain.

The Knicks identity and center rotation were decimated with iHart leaving and Mitch getting hurt. It can't be overstated.

[mpharris36]

Who said KAT is getting you Giannis or Embiid?

And where has there been one team linked to wanting to trade for Randle? It wasn't until we added Donte in the trade that Minny even decided to bite on Randle for KAT. I legit just shared a article from the athletic from a warriors beat writer that said GSW wanted KAT but couldn't give what Minny wanted in terms of talent.

You can't just throw out a statement that Randle had way more value than KAT and have nothing to back up that statement. I literally quoted a

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

So it sounds like we were dead set on trading Randle after all...

I wonder what's coming back. Atlanta has to be Capella+ and **** that. Detroit? Duren, unprotect their pick, smaller assets and filler? Depends but probably no. Now, Heat. Are we talking Bam or their other crap? If Bam was on the table then we **** up. Butler? Interesting. Maybe. But knowing Riley it was probably their grab bag 2.0 that they tried to move for Lillard. And, again, forget that.

Devil's in the details.

there is absolutely no chance Bam was available in a deal for Randle. Just go to the trade board and ask the question. Miami was like sure we will take Randle but we have like Rozier and Duncan Robinson to offer.

I am so sure about that if Bam was available for Randle and picks the knicks would have jumped on that in a second. But Miami's not doing that. Its just common sense.

[Chanel Bomber]

Ok Ill play that game. Who on Miami are we getting. Because there is zero chance Miami would trade Bam for Randle he's one of the best bigs in the NBA. I also don't think Miami trades Herro for Randle either that would make zero sense for them.

So now we are talking Rozier + Duncan Robinson. I'm not saying a team wouldn't take Randle if it was basically for dirt cheap which is how Miami operates. But who are we getting you have to answer that question. And I don't know is exactly my point. No one was giving an all-star caliber player in return for Randle by himself.

Bruh you still missing the point. I’m not hear to argue about who and what we could’ve gotten for Randle. The truth is no one knows. What sham is saying if we gotten a big time player for Randle, we wouldn’t be complaining. It’s simple as that.

how is this semantics...that WASN'T AVALIABLE!!!

if it was Giannis would be wearing a knicks jersey right now. It takes two to tango.

For how good he was for us, I honestly don't think there was much of a market for Randle, let alone in a contract year that carries a lot of risk with the upcoming extension.

Minnesota being in cap hell and needing to sort out their books was a rare window of opportunity for the Knicks to get value for Randle before facing the decision to extend him.

Both teams were in a position of weakness on the market, and both got something out of a potentially damaging situation.

[Chanel Bomber]

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

So it sounds like we were dead set on trading Randle after all...

I wonder what's coming back. Atlanta has to be Capella+ and **** that. Detroit? Duren, unprotect their pick, smaller assets and filler? Depends but probably no. Now, Heat. Are we talking Bam or their other crap? If Bam was on the table then we **** up. Butler? Interesting. Maybe. But knowing Riley it was probably their grab bag 2.0 that they tried to move for Lillard. And, again, forget that.

Devil's in the details.

there is absolutely no chance Bam was available in a deal for Randle. Just go to the trade board and ask the question. Miami was like sure we will take Randle but we have like Rozier and Duncan Robinson to offer.

I am so sure about that if Bam was available for Randle and picks the knicks would have jumped on that in a second. But Miami's not doing that. Its just common sense.

Nobody let alone Riley would trade Bam for Randle. They're not in the same stratosphere as players, and Randle's contract situation significantly diminishes his value.

[Capn'O]

If you wanted the Knicks to go for the likes of Capela or Gobert instead to address the hole at the 5, then propose that as part of your criticism instead of bemoaning that we lost our identity and went for KAT without suggesting a realistic alternative.

I've been talking about Cs all summer all the way down to Goga and Bruno!

The Knicks identity and center rotation were decimated with iHart leaving and Mitch getting hurt. It can't be overstated.

And Precious now. Those injuries have just made the adjustment harder.

There is absolutely no chance Bam was available in a deal for Randle. Just go to the trade board and ask the question. Miami was like sure we will take Randle but we have like Rozier and Duncan Robinson to offer.

I am so sure about that if Bam was available for Randle and picks the knicks would have jumped on that in a second. But Miami's not doing that. Its just common sense.

I was just hedging. I agree. It was almost certainly the grab bag 2.0. They probably didn't even offer the Pirate.

The point being, not actually knowing the offer, it's hard to comment on.

[mpharris36]

Bruh you still missing the point. I’m not hear to argue about who and what we could’ve gotten for Randle. The truth is no one knows. What sham is saying if we gotten a big time player for Randle, we wouldn’t be complaining. It’s simple as that.

how is this semantics...that WASN'T AVALIABLE!!!

if it was Giannis would be wearing a knicks jersey right now. It takes two to tango.

For how good he was for us, I honestly don't think there was much of a market for Randle, let alone in a contract year that carries a lot of risk with the upcoming extension.

Minnesota being in cap hell and needing to sort out their books was a rare window of opportunity for the Knicks to get value for Randle before facing the decision to extend him.

Both teams were in a position of weakness on the market, and both got something out of a potentially damaging situation.

Basically was it the best trade in the world...no...I'm sure the Knicks canvassed the league for potential deals. Considering they were talking to Utah for Kessler or CHA with Richards. The knicks center position was decimated and they tried to pivot to the there best available option.

Like you said Randle's production never matched his trade value. You go on the a message board today and a heat fans says Miami wants to trade Bam what are we getting and all 29 other teams says sure I'm interested. MIL puts Giannis on the market today...all 29 teams are interested.

Knicks put Randle on the market with his contract situation...you probably have a handful of teams interested and the teams interested say Miami are probably not going to give us back appropriate value.

As much as he was a madening player he still put up counting stats. He still got close to 20-10 he just did it relatively inefficiently and didn't try much on defense. He also is a PF and really can't play different roles because of his not great shooting and not great rim protection. KAT while flawed still brings a least a few different more elements to his game where you can change the roster around and he matches up fine. Randle is so unique that you have to upheave your entire system to fit him in. Since he isn't an off-ball player.

[mpharris36]

So it sounds like we were dead set on trading Randle after all...

I wonder what's coming back. Atlanta has to be Capella+ and **** that. Detroit? Duren, unprotect their pick, smaller assets and filler? Depends but probably no. Now, Heat. Are we talking Bam or their other crap? If Bam was on the table then we **** up. Butler? Interesting. Maybe. But knowing Riley it was probably their grab bag 2.0 that they tried to move for Lillard. And, again, forget that.

Devil's in the details.

there is absolutely no chance Bam was available in a deal for Randle. Just go to the trade board and ask the question. Miami was like sure we will take Randle but we have like Rozier and Duncan Robinson to offer.

I am so sure about that if Bam was available for Randle and picks the knicks would have jumped on that in a second. But Miami's not doing that. Its just common sense.

Nobody let alone Riley would trade Bam for Randle. They're not in the same stratosphere as players, and Randle's contract situation significantly diminishes his value.

I will go one step further all the picks we traded for Mikal with Randle doesn't get you Bam.

[FrozenEnvelope]

Gonna bump this after game 82. There are some concerns but they are fixable.

A lot of people gonna be eating crow.

Problem is there is no shaming these type of fans on this board. They don't get embarrassed for their terrible takes.

[Chanel Bomber]

The only thing comical is believing that KAT had trade value around the league


Randle had way more trade value than KAT.


KAT isn’t getting you Giannis or Embiid

Who said KAT is getting you Giannis or Embiid?

And where has there been one team linked to wanting to trade for Randle? It wasn't until we added Donte in the trade that Minny even decided to bite on Randle for KAT. I legit just shared a article from the athletic from a warriors beat writer that said GSW wanted KAT but couldn't give what Minny wanted in terms of talent.

You can't just throw out a statement that Randle had way more value than KAT and have nothing to back up that statement. I literally quoted a

Here you go

Read on Twitter

Either way you’re missing the whole point. Is trading Randle for Giannis/Embiid a pipe dream? Yeah probably. Point is, if we moved Randle for a big time player of that caliber I wouldn’t be complaining. I think we downgraded massively.

There was no trade for Randle that was going to net us a significantly better player, let alone a superstar.

The first reason is we no longer had picks because of the Mikal trade. Which goes back to my point that the trade that killed our flexibility was the Mikal one. So all the arguments (post-Mikal) about Giannis or Embiid are moot.

The second reason is that Randle is in a contract year at 30 and realistically doesn't fill a positional need for most teams.

It's only because Minnesota were in cap hell and in need of clearing their books that we were able to get a player of KAT's caliber for Randle.

You say we should've aimed higher. I say we're extremely lucky we managed to get value - let alone a player of KAT's talent - for Randle in light of those circumstances.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Yea, Knicks had a limited window with Randle expiring and other contracts. They took the best deals they could get. Def can critizize and second guess the moves, but you really have to understand that the window was limited to make such deals and what deals they could get back. Mikal's contract was a big reason they took him on as it fit perfectly in there books. They also still can make some more moves.

The big thing is the trade does change their identity so will take some time to see how it works. There is upside where everything can click and take us to another level....downside is it doesnt, but we should at the very least be a very good team.

OG trade was different in that he fit in perfectly to what we are doing where these deals changed more of how we need to play.

[stuporman]

that is the ultimate disconnect I am seeing.

We had 3 things:

Extend Randle (clearly that wasn't in the cards)

Keep Randle (with knicks current cap situation you could have done that for one year but you potentially risk losing his production for nothing) - and we couldn't have another Ihart situation where we lose a player and get nothing in return.

Trade Randle (you probably aren't going to get a flawless player in this scenario but you also need to potentially replace 20pts 10 boards on the books). It challenging but that is where you might have to make sacrifices in getting the perfect player or the best player we can get under those circumstances.

I understand having issues with a player, deal or whatever and voicing them but to use something imagined with no real shot of happening has always been the prop as the 'better' thing and is impossible to discuss.

The Knicks not having the defensive anchor of either Mitch or iHart is the biggest change from last season. KAT for Randle is a wash in some ways but also a better switch in others. Divo's production looks like it will be filled by Deuce quite nicely.

MB will come around just fine and Hart will find his role eventually, so getting better defensive cohesion will be what determines the ceiling of the Knicks this season, barring any other additions or changes.

The picks being gone and KAT's contract is probably the biggest stumbling blocks to any future changes though and that is something we can debate, for sure.

those are all fair concerns. The alternative with Brunson window was not doing anything...and trying to build off last year with Ihart gone and Mitch hurt for a good part of the year. How do we sustain our level of play with those losses.

I am 100% of the belief the Knicks don't trade for KAT if they bring back Ihart...does anyone disagree with that statement?

I think even if the Knicks retain iHart they still trade Randle for KAT but would they want to inclide Divo in that situation? It doesn't happen without Divo according to sources but does the FO just run with last season's group with iHart plus Bridges? Maybe but we will never know, iHart took the dough.

I also feel like some vibes thing changed with Randle that might have exploded at some point this season if he remained.