PG: Knicks vs Celtics: Season opener!

[mpharris36]

Yea, Knicks had a limited window with Randle expiring and other contracts. They took the best deals they could get. Def can critizize and second guess the moves, but you really have to understand that the window was limited to make such deals and what deals they could get back. Mikal's contract was a big reason they took him on as it fit perfectly in there books. They also still can make some more moves.

The big thing is the trade does change their identity so will take some time to see how it works. There is upside where everything can click and take us to another level....downside is it doesnt, but we should at the very least be a very good team.

OG trade was different in that he fit in perfectly to what we are doing where these deals changed more of how we need to play.

Yup.

OG trade didn't change the hierarchy of the offense. He was just fitting in cutting and hitting open 3's. We also didn't have to change the defensive gameplan either since we had Ihart and Mitch and he would just fit in as an elite wing defender.

Ihart leaving and Mitch hurt changes how we play even before the Mikal + KAT trades. Then the Mikal and KAT trades change how we are going to play offense by adding a new #2 and #3 option as well as changing how we should in theory play defense because KAT is not a rim protector like Ihart or Mitch is.

[Capn'O]

I will say, I'm optimistic on Huk. His initial returns have already far exceeded my expectation. I didn't expect him to be playable. If he can provide some good C minutes as a stopgap it will make a big difference. Sims, in my view, is always a minus.

[god shammgod]

Gonna bump this after game 82. There are some concerns but they are fixable.

A lot of people gonna be eating crow.

Problem is there is no shaming these type of fans on this board. They don't get embarrassed for their terrible takes.

I wouldn't even swap Randle alone for KAT. I don't like his game. Too soft and he will cost the Wolves the series - you'll see.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2372354&p=112922075&hilit=towns#p112922075

Randle in the playoffs is a bum, agreed. But I'm still not trading him away for inferior talent that is not as durable during the season and cost almost twice as much. If there is a fair trade out there, I'll piggy back Randle to the airport myself! KAT and KP are not it.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2289761&p=106309967&hilit=towns#p106309967

[mpharris36]

I understand having issues with a player, deal or whatever and voicing them but to use something imagined with no real shot of happening has always been the prop as the 'better' thing and is impossible to discuss.

The Knicks not having the defensive anchor of either Mitch or iHart is the biggest change from last season. KAT for Randle is a wash in some ways but also a better switch in others. Divo's production looks like it will be filled by Deuce quite nicely.

MB will come around just fine and Hart will find his role eventually, so getting better defensive cohesion will be what determines the ceiling of the Knicks this season, barring any other additions or changes.

The picks being gone and KAT's contract is probably the biggest stumbling blocks to any future changes though and that is something we can debate, for sure.

those are all fair concerns. The alternative with Brunson window was not doing anything...and trying to build off last year with Ihart gone and Mitch hurt for a good part of the year. How do we sustain our level of play with those losses.

I am 100% of the belief the Knicks don't trade for KAT if they bring back Ihart...does anyone disagree with that statement?

I think even if the Knicks retain iHart they still trade Randle for KAT but would they want to inclide Divo in that situation? It doesn't happen without Divo according to sources but does the FO just run with last season's group with iHart plus Bridges? Maybe but we will never know, iHart took the dough.

Correct clearly there was hesitancy with including Divo in the deal because they were after KAT for Randle since the draft...it wasn't until the teams were reporting to camp that the knicks finally and reluctantly added Divo to get the deal done because they probably exhausted every other option to bring in a quality center and just couldn't.

I think because of our lack of big man depth we had to reconsider Divo in the deal and unfortunately had to include him because Minny wasn't doing MItch/Randle for KAT.

[prophet_of_rage]

my point is, a large percentage of the board was against trading for kat at all. they didn't like him. but somehow now that some of us haven't done a complete 180 we're not being fans ? c'mon. yeah, melo is upset about randle. but if you had traded him as part of a package for an embiid or a giannis or someone of that ilk, he wouldn't complain about it. it's not just sour grapes, he thinks it wasn't a good move. most of you agreed until we did it.

and yes mikal is more risky no doubt because of the cost. but he's also easier to trade if you have to. although we'll never get everything back that we gave up. kat fundamentally changes how the team plays and i'm not sure we're any better now after both of these moves than we were last year.

Also were ridiculed for not having a better plan which is absurd. It's not my job to have a better plan. I'm a fan. I root for the team. I don't study the cap and line up deals or have information on how Jimmy Butler's relationship is with the heat and if he might demand a trade.

What we know is were locked into a team that's going to be really competitive and make some noise. But our ceiling for Brunsons prime looks to be capped below championship level because of our lack of interrior defense with kat playing the 5. Also our roster flexibility is nuked. And some of us don't love this.

All that is fair and no one is saying otherwise about having a differentiating opinion on the trade. But its not fair to say we should have just waited for Giannis when we didn't have a package to get him.

Alternatively you probably could have traded Randle for Ingram. Would that have excited you? Melo seems like he would be fine with it. So lets start there. Where do you stand on a players value.

Do you think KAT is more valuable than Ingram?

Not to this team. Ingram would have filled Randle's role beautifully. Tall inside the arc, shot.creating scorer.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[stuporman]

Yea, Knicks had a limited window with Randle expiring and other contracts. They took the best deals they could get. Def can critizize and second guess the moves, but you really have to understand that the window was limited to make such deals and what deals they could get back. Mikal's contract was a big reason they took him on as it fit perfectly in there books. They also still can make some more moves.

The big thing is the trade does change their identity so will take some time to see how it works. There is upside where everything can click and take us to another level....downside is it doesnt, but we should at the very least be a very good team.

OG trade was different in that he fit in perfectly to what we are doing where these deals changed more of how we need to play.

Yup.

OG trade didn't change the hierarchy of the offense. He was just fitting in cutting and hitting open 3's. We also didn't have to change the defensive gameplan either since we had Ihart and Mitch and he would just fit in as an elite wing defender.

Ihart leaving and Mitch hurt changes how we play even before the Mikal + KAT trades. Then the Mikal and KAT trades change how we are going to play offense by adding a new #2 and #3 option as well as changing how we should in theory play defense because KAT is not a rim protector like Ihart or Mitch is.

Changing RJ for OG and replacing IQ with Divo/Deuce was a simple transition than having to figure out a defensive identity without any of the center role players Thibs relies on to build the defense around. It's not about Randle for KAT, Randle is buns on defense even more than KAT may be and KAT is much better fitting offensively.

It's about the rim protecting 5s being gone and while KAT can be a great stretch 5 the team will have to rely on perimeter defensive pressure to help keep people out of the paint. As long as they don't go unconscious from 3 like the Celtics did then it may actually work.

[mpharris36]

I will say, I'm optimistic on Huk. His initial returns have already far exceeded my expectation. I didn't expect him to be playable. If he can provide some good C minutes as a stopgap it will make a big difference. Sims, in my view, is always a minus.

It takes a lot for Thibs to pull the trigger on his initial rotation. I do think Huk has way more potential and impact defensively than Sims...I just don't see thibs yanking Sims from rotation right now because he's been in the system for a minute.

[FrozenEnvelope]

Gonna bump this after game 82. There are some concerns but they are fixable.

A lot of people gonna be eating crow.

Problem is there is no shaming these type of fans on this board. They don't get embarrassed for their terrible takes.

I wouldn't even swap Randle alone for KAT. I don't like his game. Too soft and he will cost the Wolves the series - you'll see.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2372354&p=112922075&hilit=towns#p112922075

Randle in the playoffs is a bum, agreed. But I'm still not trading him away for inferior talent that is not as durable during the season and cost almost twice as much. If there is a fair trade out there, I'll piggy back Randle to the airport myself! KAT and KP are not it.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2289761&p=106309967&hilit=towns#p106309967

And? You don't see me giving up on the season or any player after one game. KAT is here and I'm giving him a fair chance.

[stuporman]

I will say, I'm optimistic on Huk. His initial returns have already far exceeded my expectation. I didn't expect him to be playable. If he can provide some good C minutes as a stopgap it will make a big difference. Sims, in my view, is always a minus.

My seal of approval this summer even before I saw him play in SL wasn't enough for you?

[HerSports85]

Yea, Knicks had a limited window with Randle expiring and other contracts. They took the best deals they could get. Def can critizize and second guess the moves, but you really have to understand that the window was limited to make such deals and what deals they could get back. Mikal's contract was a big reason they took him on as it fit perfectly in there books. They also still can make some more moves.

The big thing is the trade does change their identity so will take some time to see how it works. There is upside where everything can click and take us to another level....downside is it doesnt, but we should at the very least be a very good team.

OG trade was different in that he fit in perfectly to what we are doing where these deals changed more of how we need to play.

Yup.

OG trade didn't change the hierarchy of the offense. He was just fitting in cutting and hitting open 3's. We also didn't have to change the defensive gameplan either since we had Ihart and Mitch and he would just fit in as an elite wing defender.

Ihart leaving and Mitch hurt changes how we play even before the Mikal + KAT trades. Then the Mikal and KAT trades change how we are going to play offense by adding a new #2 and #3 option as well as changing how we should in theory play defense because KAT is not a rim protector like Ihart or Mitch is.

Changing RJ for OG and replacing IQ qith Divo/Deuce was a simple transition than having to figure out a defensive identity without any of the center role players Thibs relies on to build the defense around. It's not about Randle for KAT, Randle is buns on defense even more than KAT may be and KAT is much better fitting offensively.

It's about the rim protecting 5s being gone and while KAT can be a great stretch 5 the team will have to rely on perimeter defensive pressure to help keep people out of the paint. As long as they don't go unconscious from 3 like the Celtics did then it may actually work.

[god shammgod]

Problem is there is no shaming these type of fans on this board. They don't get embarrassed for their terrible takes.

I wouldn't even swap Randle alone for KAT. I don't like his game. Too soft and he will cost the Wolves the series - you'll see.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2372354&p=112922075&hilit=towns#p112922075

Randle in the playoffs is a bum, agreed. But I'm still not trading him away for inferior talent that is not as durable during the season and cost almost twice as much. If there is a fair trade out there, I'll piggy back Randle to the airport myself! KAT and KP are not it.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2289761&p=106309967&hilit=towns#p106309967

And? You don't see me giving up on the season or any player after one game. KAT is here and I'm giving him a fair chance.

nobody gave up on the season. in fact i said they would probably win about as many games as the last 2 years.

but you can't criticize people for their "terrible takes" who are still being vocal about not liking the deal when you had the same exact take before we made the deal.

[mpharris36]

Yea, Knicks had a limited window with Randle expiring and other contracts. They took the best deals they could get. Def can critizize and second guess the moves, but you really have to understand that the window was limited to make such deals and what deals they could get back. Mikal's contract was a big reason they took him on as it fit perfectly in there books. They also still can make some more moves.

The big thing is the trade does change their identity so will take some time to see how it works. There is upside where everything can click and take us to another level....downside is it doesnt, but we should at the very least be a very good team.

OG trade was different in that he fit in perfectly to what we are doing where these deals changed more of how we need to play.

Yup.

OG trade didn't change the hierarchy of the offense. He was just fitting in cutting and hitting open 3's. We also didn't have to change the defensive gameplan either since we had Ihart and Mitch and he would just fit in as an elite wing defender.

Ihart leaving and Mitch hurt changes how we play even before the Mikal + KAT trades. Then the Mikal and KAT trades change how we are going to play offense by adding a new #2 and #3 option as well as changing how we should in theory play defense because KAT is not a rim protector like Ihart or Mitch is.

Changing RJ for OG and replacing IQ qith Divo/Deuce was a simple transition than having to figure out a defensive identity without any of the center role players Thibs relies on to build the defense around. It's not about Randle for KAT, Randle is buns on defense even more than KAT may be and KAT is much better fitting offensively.

It's about the rim protecting 5s being gone and while KAT can be a great stretch 5 the team will have to rely on perimeter defensive pressure to help keep people out of the paint. As long as they don't go unconscious from 3 like the Celtics did then it may actually work.

That is why Thibs needs to be more open to adjusting his defensive scheme. You can't play KAT in drop coverage...it just wont work most of the time.

Since KAT played mostly 4 last year he is much more comfortable on the perimeter than in years past...so we have to use our length and versatility at the wings to our advantage.

Instead of drop coverage against Tatum and giving him a step in wide open 3...we should have switched.

KAT guards Tatum and OG goes to Horford in like a matchup zone after the screen...or run a 1-2-2 zone and put KAT in the low block that has to get out and guard the corner. Put Mikal or OG at the top of the zone and contest that way.

Yes KAT vs Tatum is a mismatch but you just for him into help if he drives and then do your best contesting 3's.

I would love to see what we do tomorrow...indy certainly going to put KAT into a tun of P&R's...you can't run drop coverage vs the pacers with there shooting.

[FrozenEnvelope]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2372354&p=112922075&hilit=towns#p112922075



https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2289761&p=106309967&hilit=towns#p106309967

And? You don't see me giving up on the season or any player after one game. KAT is here and I'm giving him a fair chance.

nobody gave up on the season. in fact i said they would probably win about as many games as the last 2 years.

but you can't criticize people for their "terrible takes" who are still being vocal about not liking the deal when you had the same exact take before we made the deal.

Big difference between not liking a player or a trade for basketball reasons and purposely trolling and giving up on the season during preseason. You have people here who have already given up on KAT, Mikal and this team.

[mpharris36]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2372354&p=112922075&hilit=towns#p112922075



https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2289761&p=106309967&hilit=towns#p106309967

And? You don't see me giving up on the season or any player after one game. KAT is here and I'm giving him a fair chance.

nobody gave up on the season. in fact i said they would probably win about as many games as the last 2 years.

but you can't criticize people for their "terrible takes" who are still being vocal about not liking the deal when you had the same exact take before we made the deal.

that was also over a year ago. I do think people can change there mind because the Randle contract situation was real and something we had to deal with the new CBA. You have mentioned to use him as an expiring in a trade...well the clock would have be ticking coming off an injury where was his value...you either had to do it this offseason or trade him before the deadline to get any use of his expiring. Its not like we had a lot of time to be patient.

[stuporman]

I will say, I'm optimistic on Huk. His initial returns have already far exceeded my expectation. I didn't expect him to be playable. If he can provide some good C minutes as a stopgap it will make a big difference. Sims, in my view, is always a minus.

It takes a lot for Thibs to pull the trigger on his initial rotation. I do think Huk has way more potential and impact defensively than Sims...I just don't see thibs yanking Sims from rotation right now because he's been in the system for a minute.

We can criticize Thibs for being too inflexible at times but one thing he won't put up with is a player ruining the team's chance to win games and the more Sims shows that ability he won't hesitate to ditch him for Huk if the latter proves to be more conducive to better defense and winning basketball.

This much we can be assured of.

[JBreezeNY]

Yup.

OG trade didn't change the hierarchy of the offense. He was just fitting in cutting and hitting open 3's. We also didn't have to change the defensive gameplan either since we had Ihart and Mitch and he would just fit in as an elite wing defender.

Ihart leaving and Mitch hurt changes how we play even before the Mikal + KAT trades. Then the Mikal and KAT trades change how we are going to play offense by adding a new #2 and #3 option as well as changing how we should in theory play defense because KAT is not a rim protector like Ihart or Mitch is.

Changing RJ for OG and replacing IQ qith Divo/Deuce was a simple transition than having to figure out a defensive identity without any of the center role players Thibs relies on to build the defense around. It's not about Randle for KAT, Randle is buns on defense even more than KAT may be and KAT is much better fitting offensively.

It's about the rim protecting 5s being gone and while KAT can be a great stretch 5 the team will have to rely on perimeter defensive pressure to help keep people out of the paint. As long as they don't go unconscious from 3 like the Celtics did then it may actually work.

That is why Thibs needs to be more open to adjusting his defensive scheme. You can't play KAT in drop coverage...it just wont work most of the time.

Since KAT played mostly 4 last year he is much more comfortable on the perimeter than in years past...so we have to use our length and versatility at the wings to our advantage.

Instead of drop coverage against Tatum and giving him a step in wide open 3...we should have switched.

KAT guards Tatum and OG goes to Horford in like a matchup zone after the screen...or run a 1-2-2 zone and put KAT in the low block that has to get out and guard the corner. Put Mikal or OG at the top of the zone and contest that way.

Yes KAT vs Tatum is a mismatch but you just for him into help if he drives and then do your best contesting 3's.

I would love to see what we do tomorrow...indy certainly going to put KAT into a tun of P&R's...you can't run drop coverage vs the pacers with there shooting.

Gonna be an interesting test of Thibs ability to adapt & make adjustments in this new, new era of basketball. If the option is still to disregard defending the 3 ball then we're dead in the water.

And honestly….i don’t know if Thibs will adjust, what has he shown to give any optimism in that area?

[mpharris36]

I will say, I'm optimistic on Huk. His initial returns have already far exceeded my expectation. I didn't expect him to be playable. If he can provide some good C minutes as a stopgap it will make a big difference. Sims, in my view, is always a minus.

It takes a lot for Thibs to pull the trigger on his initial rotation. I do think Huk has way more potential and impact defensively than Sims...I just don't see thibs yanking Sims from rotation right now because he's been in the system for a minute.

We can criticize Thibs for being too inflexible at times but one thing he won't put up with is a player ruining the team's chance to win games and the more Sims shows that ability he won't hesitate to ditch him for Huk if the latter proves to be more conducive to better defense and winning basketball.

This much we can be assured of.

Sims has been clueless since he got into the NBA

https://youtu.be/MFxzjsqoXio?si=D-Tt6k6TEbMwdjoA&t=49

49 seconds in (I think I clipped it at that point with the link). Can someone explain WTF he is doing on this play? Is he actually backpaddling away from there best scorer?

[stuporman]

Yup.

OG trade didn't change the hierarchy of the offense. He was just fitting in cutting and hitting open 3's. We also didn't have to change the defensive gameplan either since we had Ihart and Mitch and he would just fit in as an elite wing defender.

Ihart leaving and Mitch hurt changes how we play even before the Mikal + KAT trades. Then the Mikal and KAT trades change how we are going to play offense by adding a new #2 and #3 option as well as changing how we should in theory play defense because KAT is not a rim protector like Ihart or Mitch is.

Changing RJ for OG and replacing IQ qith Divo/Deuce was a simple transition than having to figure out a defensive identity without any of the center role players Thibs relies on to build the defense around. It's not about Randle for KAT, Randle is buns on defense even more than KAT may be and KAT is much better fitting offensively.

It's about the rim protecting 5s being gone and while KAT can be a great stretch 5 the team will have to rely on perimeter defensive pressure to help keep people out of the paint. As long as they don't go unconscious from 3 like the Celtics did then it may actually work.

That is why Thibs needs to be more open to adjusting his defensive scheme. You can't play KAT in drop coverage...it just wont work most of the time.

Since KAT played mostly 4 last year he is much more comfortable on the perimeter than in years past...so we have to use our length and versatility at the wings to our advantage.

Instead of drop coverage against Tatum and giving him a step in wide open 3...we should have switched.

KAT guards Tatum and OG goes to Horford in like a matchup zone after the screen...or run a 1-2-2 zone and put KAT in the low block that has to get out and guard the corner. Put Mikal or OG at the top of the zone and contest that way.

Yes KAT vs Tatum is a mismatch but you just for him into help if he drives and then do your best contesting 3's.

I would love to see what we do tomorrow...indy certainly going to put KAT into a tun of P&R's...you can't run drop coverage vs the pacers with there shooting.

I'm not going to argue adjustments in the forum because so much of that is hypothetical but yea, changes needed to be made. I know that Thibs isn't one to make in game adjustments like that in the first game of the season because he wants to see it play out some before changing it up.

We can criticize that maybe he doesn't make in game changes later in the season or playoffs as quickly enough to help win those games but I'm not going to go all in on him because game 1 of the season doesn't work out as intended and he isn't changing it up after 12min of the game.

Let's hope he will change his plan to fit the skill set of the players he has instead of force his system onto players that may not be able to do it.

[mpharris36]

Changing RJ for OG and replacing IQ qith Divo/Deuce was a simple transition than having to figure out a defensive identity without any of the center role players Thibs relies on to build the defense around. It's not about Randle for KAT, Randle is buns on defense even more than KAT may be and KAT is much better fitting offensively.

It's about the rim protecting 5s being gone and while KAT can be a great stretch 5 the team will have to rely on perimeter defensive pressure to help keep people out of the paint. As long as they don't go unconscious from 3 like the Celtics did then it may actually work.

That is why Thibs needs to be more open to adjusting his defensive scheme. You can't play KAT in drop coverage...it just wont work most of the time.

Since KAT played mostly 4 last year he is much more comfortable on the perimeter than in years past...so we have to use our length and versatility at the wings to our advantage.

Instead of drop coverage against Tatum and giving him a step in wide open 3...we should have switched.

KAT guards Tatum and OG goes to Horford in like a matchup zone after the screen...or run a 1-2-2 zone and put KAT in the low block that has to get out and guard the corner. Put Mikal or OG at the top of the zone and contest that way.

Yes KAT vs Tatum is a mismatch but you just for him into help if he drives and then do your best contesting 3's.

I would love to see what we do tomorrow...indy certainly going to put KAT into a tun of P&R's...you can't run drop coverage vs the pacers with there shooting.

Gonna be an interesting test of Thibs ability to adapt & make adjustments in this new, new era of basketball. If the option is still to disregard defending the 3 ball then we're dead in the water.

And honestly….i don’t know if Thibs will adjust, what has he shown to give any optimism in that area?

he better he doesn't have a really strong rim protecting big at the moment. Almost entirely not by Knicks choice.

So either adapt the the personnel you have or he will show why his teams a lot of times struggle in the playoffs when he goes up against better coaches.

You have switchable matchup zone type wings with OG/Mikal/Hart...that is there value...utilize it..if you are just going to defend and use KAT like he would use Ihart or Mitch well thats Thibs fault.

[stuporman]

It takes a lot for Thibs to pull the trigger on his initial rotation. I do think Huk has way more potential and impact defensively than Sims...I just don't see thibs yanking Sims from rotation right now because he's been in the system for a minute.

We can criticize Thibs for being too inflexible at times but one thing he won't put up with is a player ruining the team's chance to win games and the more Sims shows that ability he won't hesitate to ditch him for Huk if the latter proves to be more conducive to better defense and winning basketball.

This much we can be assured of.

Sims has been clueless since he got into the NBA

https://youtu.be/MFxzjsqoXio?si=D-Tt6k6TEbMwdjoA&t=49

49 seconds in (I think I clipped it at that point with the link). Can someone explain WTF he is doing on this play? Is he actually backpaddling away from there best scorer?

Maybe Thibs is just infatuated with his hair but yea, not sure why he has put any trust in him for as long as he has.