Retro Player of the Year 1982-83 UPDATE — Moses Malone

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1982-83.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 12:30PM PST on Sunday, October 27th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

________________________________________
Layaway Voters
* Bad Gatorade
* McBubbles

[One_and_Done]

I don't think I'll have Moses #1, but I'm still tossing up who gets ahead of him. Given Bird's disappointing playoffs my #1 is probably Magic.

[AEnigma]

Why not George Gervin.

[One_and_Done]

Why not George Gervin.

If Gervin played with a support cast as good as Dr J, Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks and Toney then he'd likely have a title or two under his belt as well. Of course Gervin is a guard, so maybe switch out Toney for someone like later career Gilmore or Parish.

Moses had basically a perfect fit support cast for that era. I'll have Moses in my top 5, but not over Magic. Magic was the better player over the balance of the season.

[AEnigma]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Gus Williams
3. Moses Malone

Messy year after Magic. Keeping Gus at second because I still assess him as a top three playmaker (Isiah Thomas is on a similar level but misses the postseason). The problem is talent is too consolidated. The Spurs have Gervin and Gilmore and Mike Mitchell, and then their most outstanding postseason player was Johnny Moore! Moncrief and Marques split offensive shares on the Bucks. Bird and English have good rosters but disappoint in the postseason. Moses has a great roster too, but thoroughly dominating the entire league is a strong point of distinction over the alternate options.

Next year will be more interesting.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Tree Rollins
2. Bill Cartwright
3. Rick Mahorn

Tree Rollins is officially a starter and is the league’s clear best rim protector. Easy pick. Buck Williams is the best defender on the league’s top defence (assuming Larry Brown is excluded ), and the additions of MRR and Dawkins do not seem to have changed much on that end… but yet again they are thoroughly outshined by a first-round playoff opponent with a similarly valid candidate. Meanwhile, Rick Mahorn misses the playoffs at 42-40 essentially because he played in by far the best division in basketball. I put Mahorn ahead last year, and Buck hardly improved his candidacy in the postseason.

Jack Sikma is likely a more valuable defender than Buck and Cartwright, and possibly Mahorn too, but the Sonics are nothing notable this year on defence, and Sikma is not enough of an individually brilliant defender to forgive that slide.

Player of the Year

1. Moses Malone
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Sidney Moncrief
5. Larry Bird

Weird year after the top spot. I have generally fallen on the more critical side of Moses, but I do not see a real argument where he was not the league’s top regular season or postseason player. Just a shakier year below. Magic is a stand-out for most of the seasons but struggles more in the Finals. Kareem is in his late prime and slowing down, but his scoring is still excellent; I suppose the idea of the Lakers having two of the top three players may seem excessive, but roughly same average between them as in 1982. Moncrief is the best player on the Bucks up until they face the 76ers, and Marques’s advantage in a 4-1 loss is not enough for me to flip. Bird fades yet again in the postseason — I have seen this one attributed to illness? — but unlike in 1980 and 1981, the Celtics were not even a competitive postseason threat, and they also had a comparatively lacklustre regular season.

[70sFan]

I don't know if there is any other season that people would argue for a player that was outplayed to similar degree to Magic against Moses. Magic had probably the weakest finals of his career (he wasn't even Lakers best player in that series) while Moses dominated the Lakers.

I haven't finished my list for the season, but I definitely have Moses ahead of Magic.

[Djoker]

Moses is easily my #1 here... by a big margin. The most interesting aspect of Moses' career is what in the world happens to him after 1983. Man was just 27 obliterating the league then became irrelevant. Seems he lost motivation. Fo' fo' fo' followed by why bother any mo' mo' mo'. Moses was supposed to be the best big man in the league in the 80's.

Actually leaning towards Kareem for #2. He had a very strong PS before the Finals not just with magnificent scoring but strong defense. Magic probably had a marginally better RS so those two guys are close. Then probably Doctor J and Bird round out my list although I'll think about it a bit more and read the others' posts.

[LA Bird]

MVP, FMVP, league leader in multiple box composites both RS and PO, team leading +15.6 on/off on an all time team that almost swept the postseason... there is zero debate really. This should be an unanimous year. The debate is who goes #2 considering every other 1st team player fell off in the playoffs at some point.

[70sFan]

Moses is easily my POY here and I don't find anyone else even remotely close to him.
I actually think I will have Kareem 2nd, although I can see a case for Magic as well (Magic was better in WCF, Kareem was better in the first round and the finals, RS is close).

I think Moncrief is a strong candidate for top 5, but don't sleep on Artis Gilmore - he didn't give the Spurs the ultimate prize, but he made them competitive against the Lakers while being clearly the best Spurs player in the playoffs (Gervin really underperformed in that series unfortunately).

[One_and_Done]

Moses is easily my #1 here... by a big margin. The most interesting aspect of Moses' career is what in the world happens to him after 1983. Man was just 27 obliterating the league then became irrelevant. Seems he lost motivation. Fo' fo' fo' followed by why bother any mo' mo' mo'. Moses was supposed to be the best big man in the league in the 80's.

Actually leaning towards Kareem for #2. He had a very strong PS before the Finals not just with magnificent scoring but strong defense. Magic probably had a marginally better RS so those two guys are close. Then probably Doctor J and Bird round out my list although I'll think about it a bit more and read the others' posts.

Nothing happened. Other stars like Bird had disappointing playoff runs this year. It wasn't that Moses got worse, other players did better.

One only needs to ask 'omg what happened!?' if they genuinely believe Moses was this godlike player in 83. That's not how I see it. Moses just joined a team that was a 58 win contender without him and became their missing piece, kind of like a better version of Sheed joining the Pistons. They caught lightning in a bottle in year 1, and were still good after that, but the other teams played better. Plus, Erving and Bobby Jones were getting older, and teams who dominate the league like that tend to coast a little in the RS in the following year/s.

The Sixers had a bit of a championship hangover the next year at 52 wins (though they played at a 54 win pace when Moses played), but then had seasons where they won 58 and 54, losing to the Celtics, and then the Bucks in 7.

[70sFan]

It wasn't that Moses got worse, other players did better.

That's factually incorrect. Moses struggled with injuries throughout the season (don't remember the details) and his production regressed from the first season.

[One_and_Done]

It wasn't that Moses got worse, other players did better.

That's factually incorrect. Moses struggled with injuries throughout the season (don't remember the details) and his production regressed from the first season.

Well, I did say the team had a championship hangover, so I won't say he played as well, but I don't think he fundamentally changed as a player post 83.

[OhayoKD]

Agree Moses should be #1 here, perhaps even unanimously. That said...

MVP, FMVP, league leader in multiple box composites both RS and PO, team leading +15.6 on/off on an all time team that almost swept the postseason... there is zero debate really. This should be an unanimous year. The debate is who goes #2 considering every other 1st team player fell off in the playoffs at some point.

It should not be hard to conjure up box-composites were Magic would come ahead, paticularly if you novel box-inputs were allowed(prog.dribbles, prog. passes, dto's, ect). Unless there is a reason for why we think the former is more relevant to Magic vs Moses, I don't see much value there. It doesn't really change much here, but I would hope leading in whatever formulas humans decided to create would only be weighed to the degree they could be justified over would-be controls.

Also not sure how seriously a +15.6 on/off(especially in the 80s) should be taken when over full-games the team only improves by +1.6 SRS and 7 wins.

It's not quite KD on the 2017 Warriors (Durant was outdone at his greatest strength (scoring) by Steph for the regular-season and 3 rounds of the postseason, looks alot worse by all the impact approaches, team is unaffected when he misses games in the regular season, so on), but Moses being #1 is really more about the competition than Moses having an all-time campaign. When you join a team that comes within 2 games of a title, barring extraordinary circumstances, any superstar worth their salt should be able to convert that into a win, particularly when none of the competition is as good as they were the previous year.

That said, while I'm sympathetic to anyone who decides to favor Julius, taking Magic is a tad ridiculous.

[One_and_Done]

1. Magic

I have Magic as a clearly superior player to Moses. Now of course, guys have down years and up years, that’s what this project is about. Trying to capture who was the best player in a given year. I just don’t think Moses was better than Magic, I think Moses is just getting that recognition because his team was dominant. But the reality is Moses had the better support cast than Magic, so it’s not that surprising his team won. Erving was still an MVP candidate, and he also had Bobby Jones, Cheeks and Toney. That’s a near perfect fit of players to close around you for this era, which complement your strengths. The Sixers won 58 the year before, so it’s not a big shock that adding Moses would put them over the top.

People point to Moses “outplaying Magic” in the finals, as though they were matched up with each other. That’s not a sensible way of looking at things. Magic didn’t have the best finals, he didn’t shoot well, but I don’t think the Lakers lost because Moses outplayed Magic or something, if anything Kareem should catch some heat for that. The Lakers lost because they had a worse team. Over the course of the whole RS and PS, Magic was better, poor finals shooting aside. It’s post-prime Kareem getting bullied on the boards in the finals that was a bigger issue.

2. Moses

I have a lot of reservations about Moses. He has some real limits to his game, and I don’t think in a vacuum that he’s a better player than Bird this year. If you tried to build a team around Bird or Moses this year, the Bird team would be more likely to win. However, the reality is that Bird had a bad playoffs this year. Whatever the reason for it, that’s what happened, so despite my view that Bird was the better player (including in the RS), I find it tough to put him ahead of Moses.

3. Bird

A better player than any of the other players, but his bad playoffs sees him drop to 3 this year.

4. Kareem

I don’t think much of the competition. This was just a weird year, where various guys had down years, or didn’t really show enough to place highly. Kareem’s finals was a bit disappointing, but on the whole his playoffs and RS is strong enough for me to rank him here.

5. Gilmore

This was a tough decision. I looked at Erving, Moncrief, Marques, and Gervin. There are a tonne of guys all in the mix around here. I’ve ultimately gone with Gilmore, who had a very strong RS and PS. People underrate this Spurs season; they lost gam 6 by 1 point, and were really giving the showtime Lakers a run for their money, a team that completely outgunned them. This is Gilmore’s last year as a top 5 player, and I’m surprised he’s still able to get a vote from me. Very open to flipping my #5 vote tbh.

[B-Mitch 30]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Moses Malone

There’s an argument for Magic, or other players this season, but Moses is clearly the spark plug behind the Sixers becoming the best team in the league. The fact they were number 1 in both offensive rebounding and free throw attempts was mostly thanks to him, and the team capped off the year by only losing one game in the playoffs, as Malone took home Finals MVP.

2. Magic Johnson

In the Western Conference, the Lakers were the clear best team, as they similarly dominated their opposition in the regular and postseason, until they ran into the Sixers. Magic led the NBA in assists for the first time, and while his scoring volume dropped a bit, he was as efficient as ever.

3. Marques Johnson

Marques had a bounce back season after missing some games and my ballot last year. Once again, Johnson was efficient at scoring, and good at rebounding and passing, as the Bucks swept the Celtics and handed the Sixers their only playoff loss. Larry Bird had better regular season stats than Marques, but Johnson managed to maintain his scoring volume and a decent efficiency in the postseason, unlike Bird.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Larry Nance

The Suns were one of the best defensive teams in the league, with the number 1 eFG defense, and good stats in turnovers, rebounding, and fouls. Nance was obviously the most important defender on the team, being 18th in defensive rebounds, and 3rd in blocks, while averaging over a steal per game.

2. Tree Rollins

The Hawks had a mediocre offense this year, and only made it to the playoffs thanks to their excellent defense, spearheaded by Rollins, who was 1st in blocks and 15th in defensive rebounds.

3. Buck Williams

After Moses obviously, Williams was the best rebounder in the league, and averaged over a block and steal per game on a similarly offensively moribund Nets team.

Player of the Year

1. Moses Malone

In addition to his contributions on offense, Moses had the best steal numbers of his career, and was 10th in blocks. While he was far from the best defender on the Sixers, their defense was still very good, and Malone clearly did his part.

2. Magic Johnson

Magic’s defense looks like it declined a bit from last year, but obviously that had little to do with why the Lakers were one of the best teams in the league since he arrived.

3. Marques Johnson

As stated earlier, Johnson was arguably the best all-around player in the game, and did well in the playoffs.

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Kareem’s decline, especially in rebounding, is very evident by this point, but he was still an insanely efficient 20 points per game man, who led the postseason in scoring and blocks.

5. Buck Williams

Williams averaged a very efficient 17 points per game, and was the only reason the Nets made the playoffs, where he played well in an admittedly two game sweep.

[Djoker]

Nothing happened. Other stars like Bird had disappointing playoff runs this year. It wasn't that Moses got worse, other players did better.

One only needs to ask 'omg what happened!?' if they genuinely believe Moses was this godlike player in 83. That's not how I see it. Moses just joined a team that was a 58 win contender without him and became their missing piece, kind of like a better version of Sheed joining the Pistons. They caught lightning in a bottle in year 1, and were still good after that, but the other teams played better. Plus, Erving and Bobby Jones were getting older, and teams who dominate the league like that tend to coast a little in the RS in the following year/s.

The Sixers had a bit of a championship hangover the next year at 52 wins (though they played at a 54 win pace when Moses played), but then had seasons where they won 58 and 54, losing to the Celtics, and then the Bucks in 7.

Disagree. Moses definitely got worse after 1983. He never again had a prime quality season. Closest is 1985 but still not on the same level. Baffling for a player who was at an age at which he should be peaking.

You are seriously disrespecting Moses comparing him to Sheed who just isn't the same caliber of player. He didn't just join a 58-win team and make them champions. He joined them and made them one of the greatest teams ever. There aren't too many squads in history clearly better than the 1983 Sixers.

[One_and_Done]

Nothing happened. Other stars like Bird had disappointing playoff runs this year. It wasn't that Moses got worse, other players did better.

One only needs to ask 'omg what happened!?' if they genuinely believe Moses was this godlike player in 83. That's not how I see it. Moses just joined a team that was a 58 win contender without him and became their missing piece, kind of like a better version of Sheed joining the Pistons. They caught lightning in a bottle in year 1, and were still good after that, but the other teams played better. Plus, Erving and Bobby Jones were getting older, and teams who dominate the league like that tend to coast a little in the RS in the following year/s.

The Sixers had a bit of a championship hangover the next year at 52 wins (though they played at a 54 win pace when Moses played), but then had seasons where they won 58 and 54, losing to the Celtics, and then the Bucks in 7.

Disagree. Moses definitely got worse after 1983. He never again had a prime quality season. Closest is 1985 but still not on the same level. Baffling for a player who was at an age at which he should be peaking.

You are seriously disrespecting Moses comparing him to Sheed who just isn't the same caliber of player. He didn't just join a 58-win team and make them champions. He joined them and made them one of the greatest teams ever. There aren't too many squads in history clearly better than the 1983 Sixers.

The 83 Sixers wouldn't make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs today.

[Djoker]

The 83 Sixers wouldn't make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs today.

The 2024 Celtics wouldn't make it out of the 1st round of the 2065 playoffs then...Wwhy pretend like today's basketball is any good when in the future it will be way better.

[One_and_Done]

The 83 Sixers wouldn't make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs today.

The 2024 Celtics wouldn't make it out of the 1st round of the 2065 playoffs then...Wwhy pretend like today's basketball is any good when in the future it will be way better.

I mean, it's possible, but unless there are systemic changes to the game I doubt it.

[70sFan]

Nothing happened. Other stars like Bird had disappointing playoff runs this year. It wasn't that Moses got worse, other players did better.

One only needs to ask 'omg what happened!?' if they genuinely believe Moses was this godlike player in 83. That's not how I see it. Moses just joined a team that was a 58 win contender without him and became their missing piece, kind of like a better version of Sheed joining the Pistons. They caught lightning in a bottle in year 1, and were still good after that, but the other teams played better. Plus, Erving and Bobby Jones were getting older, and teams who dominate the league like that tend to coast a little in the RS in the following year/s.

The Sixers had a bit of a championship hangover the next year at 52 wins (though they played at a 54 win pace when Moses played), but then had seasons where they won 58 and 54, losing to the Celtics, and then the Bucks in 7.

Disagree. Moses definitely got worse after 1983. He never again had a prime quality season. Closest is 1985 but still not on the same level. Baffling for a player who was at an age at which he should be peaking.

You are seriously disrespecting Moses comparing him to Sheed who just isn't the same caliber of player. He didn't just join a 58-win team and make them champions. He joined them and made them one of the greatest teams ever. There aren't too many squads in history clearly better than the 1983 Sixers.

1985 is definitely a prime Moses quality season, he just disappointed in the playoffs. 1984 can be explained by injury issues, what happened after 1985 is truly strange though. Moses remained a solid all-nba caliber player, but he was no longer in discussion for the MVP. It's really strange considering that he still showed many signs of excellence when he outplayed many younger stars at his position.