Retro Player of the Year Project 1983-84 UPDATE — Larry Bird

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1983-84.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 10:30AM EST on Thursday, October 31st. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

________________________________________
Layaway Voters
* Bad Gatorade
* McBubbles

[Djoker]

Bird is #1 for sure. Possibly Magic #2 despite the Tragic moniker. Kareem right behind him.

Love Isiah Thomas here though. Pistons had the #1 offense and he had seriously great numbers in both the RS and PS. And Bernard King was also fantastic that he probably makes my ballot.

[AEnigma]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Isiah Thomas
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird

I am willing to penalise Magic for the fifteen missed regular season games and for the disappointing performances in Games 5 and 7 of the Finals, but not to the extent I would move him below Bird, who was similarly bad in Game 7. The beneficiary then is Isiah, who was a volume playmaker on par with (maybe even exceeding) Magic while leading a #1 offence that went +6 against the #1 defence that year — in large part because the Knicks could not force turnovers against Isiah the way they did throughout the regular season (17.8% down to 13.3%).

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Mark Eaton
2. Tree Rollins
3. Robert Parish

I am not excited by this ballot. Eaton per minute is the best defender here, but this year he plays few enough minutes that he is not necessarily the league’s most valuable defender (in contrast with 1985-89, where I see no real argument against him being at least top two). That said, Tree does not exactly do much to justify his placement at the top of this ballot. The Sonics continue to fade as a relevant defence and relevant team. McHale’s elevation and DJ’s addition mean Parish is no longer providing as much relative defensive value to the Celtics as he did when he first joined the team. And Cartwright is absolutely not a DPoY-level player.

That leaves Buck Williams, but I have always been skeptical of his real impact: from 1987-90, the Nets were 61-165 (27% win rate) with Buck and 25-77 (24.5% win rate) without Buck. He did decline from his prime, but not to sufficiently excusable degree.

With all that in mind, Eaton secures my support a year earlier than anticipated.

Player of the Year

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bernard King
4. Sidney Moncrief
5. Isiah Thomas

Do not think Bird is the de facto best player, but he is the most significant player this year, and while he had disappointing Finals games like usual, his missteps were ultimately not as damaging as Magic’s were.

Kareem is the tough exclusion here. On his own team he is likely a better player than Isiah and Moncrief, but with competition improving, I cannot show him the same deference I did last year without a title.

[Colbinii]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Isiah Thomas
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird

I am willing to penalise Magic for the fifteen missed regular season games and for the disappointing performances in Games 5 and 7 of the Finals, but not to the extent I would move him below Bird, who was similarly bad in Game 7. The beneficiary then is Isiah, who was a volume playmaker on par with (maybe even exceeding) Magic while leading a #1 offence that went +6 against the #1 defence that year — in large part because the Knicks could not force turnovers against Isiah the way they did throughout the regular season (17.8% down to 13.3%).

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Mark Eaton
2. Tree Rollins
3. Robert Parish

I am not excited by this ballot. Eaton per minute is the best defender here, but this year he plays few enough minutes that he is not necessarily the league’s most valuable defender (in contrast with 1985-89, where I see no real argument against him being at least top two). That said, Tree does not exactly do much to justify his placement at the top of this ballot, and McHale’s elevation and DJ’s addition mean Parish is no longer providing as much relative defensive value to the Celtics as he did when he first joined the team.

Player of the Year

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bernard King
4. Sidney Moncrief
5. Isiah Thomas

More later.

Do you care about the Celtics posting a 113 Ortg against the Knicks while the Pistons only posted 109?

Bird was better vs the Knicks than Isiah was.

[One_and_Done]

Bird and Magic are my 1 & 2 for sure, probably for the next 3 years.

[AEnigma]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Isiah Thomas
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird

I am willing to penalise Magic for the fifteen missed regular season games and for the disappointing performances in Games 5 and 7 of the Finals, but not to the extent I would move him below Bird, who was similarly bad in Game 7. The beneficiary then is Isiah, who was a volume playmaker on par with (maybe even exceeding) Magic while leading a #1 offence that went +6 against the #1 defence that year — in large part because the Knicks could not force turnovers against Isiah the way they did throughout the regular season (17.8% down to 13.3%).

Do you care about the Celtics posting a 113 Ortg against the Knicks while the Pistons only posted 109?

Bird was better vs the Knicks than Isiah was.

To me that is more about personnel. Bird and the Celtics were nowhere near as successful against their other two opponents even though neither had a particularly elite regular season defence. Larry Bird outscored Bernard King head-to-head in that Celtics/Knicks series, but that does not mean I think Bird was a better scorer generally — just like I do not think Terry Cummings is a better scorer than Moses Malone and Michael Jordan generally despite outscoring both head-to-head next year.

In one year, Bird and Isiah will play each other — which means in a roughly one year period, we see King play the Pistons and Celtics, Bird play the Knicks and Pistons, and Isiah play the Celtics and Knicks. Of those three series, I would say King was most spectacular against the Pistons (relative to Bird), Bird was most spectacular against the Knicks (relative to Isiah), and Isiah was most spectacular against the Celtics (relative to King). These rock/paper/scissor games do not tell me much.

I ascribe more specific responsibility to Isiah for the offensive performance of the Pistons than I do to Bird for the offensive performance of the Celtics, just off the nature of their roles. Again, Isiah went up as a dominant ballhandler against the top turnover-forcing team, yet his playmaking (and the offence) thrived all the same. Bird of course had an outstanding series as a scorer, but forward defence was not any real strength of the Knicks that year; remember that Tripucka excelled as a scorer too against the Knicks at a level beyond his regular season output.

[penbeast0]

Boston was the league champion and easily the best RS team this year. Adding Dennis Johnson to the already star studded Boston lineup made them even stronger and having Bird healthy for the postseason was a key as he had a strong playoff run to go with his regular season numbers. LA and Philly were unsurprisingly the next two teams in regular season standings. LA gave Boston strong competition in the finals despite the Tragic Johnson meme; Philly got upset by New Jersey in the first tourn. LA traded PG Norm Nixon to finally allow it to fully become Magic's team, drafting Byron Scott to replace him. Philly was still Doc and Moses with Andrew Toney having a strong season for the 3rd option.

Close behind the top 3 were Milwaukee, still in the midst of Sidney Moncrief's 4 year healthy prime teamed with Marques Johnson who got to the ECF again with Philly's upset. Other second tier contenders included Detroit who teamed Bill Laimbeer with Isiah to begin what turned into the Bad Boys run, New York where Bernard King stepped up from a strong regular season with a monster postseason scoring spree, and New Jersey where Otis Birdsong was their only All-star until he got brutally shut down by Sidney Moncrief after the Nets beat Philly. In the West, LA's top challengers were balanced Portland, Utah with Adrian Dantley who led the league in scoring while finishing second in efficiency, Dallas, and Seattle.

The top 5 scorers in the league were all forwards led by Adrian Dantley. Moses led in rebounds per game but missed some games so Laimbeer and Buck Williams had more total rebounds. Similarly Magic led in assists per game but Norm Nixon and Isiah Thomas had more total assists.

Player of the Year:
1. Larry Bird -- best player on the best team, no reasons to pick against him
2. Magic Johnson -- the rivalry was definitely on
3. Adrian Dantley -- Volume scoring at great efficiency to lead a less strong cast to a good record
4. Sidney Moncrief -- Another year combining great efficiency, great defense, and good scoring for another ECF trip
5. Bernard King -- Monster playoff scoring combined with strong regular season

[ardee]

Excited to get to this part of league history. I think '84-'93 is the NBA's golden era.

PoY

1. Larry Bird: duh. Year 1 of one of the greatest 3-5 year stretches in NBA history by a player. '84-'86 is certainly top 5 all time in my book, hard to rank anyone besides Jordan, LeBron and Shaq definitely above it. Zero concerns about Playoff performance this year as is sometimes the case with Bird. One of the strongest no. 1s the project has had so far.

2. Magic Johnson: Mighty impressive stuff, basically in his classic prime now where he is the full-time point guard instead of splitting duties with Norm Nixon.

3. Bernard King: One of those weird years when a player shows an insane level that he can never quite return to. Even today we'd freak at a perimeter volume scorer shooting 57% from the field, and to top it off his Playoffs were even crazier.

4. Sidney Moncrief: DPoY again, the Bucks were very solid again, and he remained an All-Star level offensive player too.

5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: well past his prime now but I just think he contributes more to winning basketball even still than Isiah, who is the other contender. He is almost certainly going to finish in the top 5 next year, and I don't see him as any worse in '84 on paper.

OPoY

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Bernard King

DPoY

Will fill this in later.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Larry Bird
4 - Isiah Thomas
5 - Moncrief

No one expects the Knicks to do anything and they really suck when King isn't there yet they're making the Celtics go to the final game and no one's even voting him top 2? He didn't win an MVP or anything so I get it but think people are voting by name maybe.
I know he's Tragic Johnson but his stats are better during the playoffs and he played better in the final anyway. Taking a few clips to say the famous playmaker with 13 assists was worse than the famous playmaker with 3 assists seems weird. Especially since it seems Magics assists are worth more to people. He also has the higher TS and the eyetest seems kind of bad for Bird. Just feel voting him above would be a rings vote and not who I think was better.

Guards aren't real DPOYS I know but Sid's the best player on a team that made the top 4 and won 50 games so he should get some love right?

I know analytics and advanced whatever doesn't like him but 21 points and 11 assists and leading good offenses too. I don't know if IT's assists are real but he was on a lot of really good teams and most people say he led them. Also, if the whole thing about assists being real is about dribbling the ball then doesn't it matter IT was one of the best in the league?. It's not like he's waiting in the corner or something.

Offensive Player of the Year

1- Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Isiah Thomas

Don't really know who to vote for on defense so I'll sit this one out.

[trelos6]

I love how Bird goes from 5th to 1st in most people's ballots, where he basically was the same player.

His scoring went from 21.7, +3 to 22.7, +0.9 in the regular season.

In the playoffs he was markedly better with rTS%, but he also had a better team. He was a slightly better playmaker in '84 also.

Looking at the Celtics minutes played in rs between '83 and '84.

Bird: 2982 -> 3028
Parish: 24.59 -> 2867
McHale: 2345 -> 2577
Maxwell: 2252 -> 2502
Ainge: 2048 -> 1154
Tiny -> DJ: 1811 ->2665
Also, Robey: 885 -> 0

McHale DID improve, Parish was about the same, a slight bit of a decline. Maxwell unchanged. Ainge worse, but he wasn't starting.

The biggest difference was Dennis Johnson over TIny Archibald. DJ taking Ainge and TIny's minutes made the Celtics a better team.

Celtics went from 56 to 62 wins in the regular season, and DJ plus McHale's improvement made Boston a much tougher out in the playoffs.

Goes to show, team situation is quite important. Winning bias is real.

[AEnigma]

Yeah, performing well in the postseason matters. Glad we are establishing that over three decades into the project.

[penbeast0]

1 - Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Larry Bird
4 - Isiah Thomas
5 - Moncrief

No one expects the Knicks to do anything and they really suck when King isn't there yet they're making the Celtics go to the final game and no one's even voting him top 2? He didn't win an MVP or anything so I get it but feels like people are voting by name maybe.
I know he's Tragic Johnson but his stats are better during the playoffs and he played better in the final anyway. Taking a few clips to say the famous playmaker with 13 assists was worse than the famous playmaker with 3 assists seems weird. Especially since it seems Magics assists are worth more to people. He also has the higher TS and the eyetest seems kind of bad for Bird. Just feel voting him above would be a rings vote and not who I think was better.

Guards aren't real DPOYS I know but Sid's the best player on a team that made the top 4 and won 50 games so he should get some love right?

I know analytics and advanced whatever doesn't like him but 21 points and 11 assists and leading good offenses too. I don't know if IT's assists are real but he was on a lot of really good teams and most people say he led them. Also, if the whole thing about assists being real is about dribbling the ball then doesn't it matter IT was one of the best in the league?. It's not like he's waiting in the corner or something.

Offensive Player of the Year

1- Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Isiah Thomas

Don't really know who to vote for on defense so I'll sit this one out.

Seeing a lot of Bernard King love and none for Adrian Dantley but this is the most extreme.

Some points to note:
(a) In a 79 game (77 for King) regular season sample, Dantley scored 30.1 ppg (best in league) v. King's 26.3. Dantley's ts% was .652 (2nd in league) to King's .619. Dantley also played 1 more game and a few more minutes so it can't be durability.
Dantley led the league in Win Shares, WS/48, PER, Offensive Box Score +/-, Offensive Rating, Fouls drawn, and Fouls made.
(b) In a 12 game (11 for Dantley) playoff sample, King stepped up in the playoffs with 34.8 points (best in league) on .620 ts% in 12 games; Dantley also stepped up his volume scoring 32.2 but his efficiency dropped to .604 ts%.
(c) In terms of style, both were known as post-up threes, neither played much defense, King has a slight rebounding edge, Dantley a fairly strong edge in assists, neither were warm, fuzzy types. fwiw Dantley did get the nickname The Teacher and raves from Chuck Daly for his leadership and practice habits (and even some for defense!) in Detroit later but his main coach during his Utah years, Frank Layden, ripped him as a selfish jerk (though he later tried to recant those remarks).

Dantley's team had the higher rated team offense, New York much the better defense, they had similar records (45 wins for Utah, 47 for NY) and went equally far in the playoffs both losing in close series in the second round. Hubie Brown as New York's coach impressed me more than Layden. So, the regular season stats favor Dantley more strongly than the postseason ones favor King. King got the press because he played in the media capital of NY while Dantley was often ignored because Utah was arguably the least national media of any team. I can see voting King over Dantley for that hot 12 game stretch; but picking him #1 in the league while completely ignoring the better player for the other 79 games seems wrong to me. I tend to go with the stronger sample size unless one player had a complete meltdown or there are non-statistical factors involved. I don't see those here.

[OhayoKD]

Kola's ballot.

Spoiler:

1984

1.

Magic Johnson - (Grain Version) Yuki
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Showtime Slaughter

Ball Techniques:
+ Perfect Passer
+ Bom-Ba-Ball handling; Reverse-Ball Technique - Turbo Transition; Maximum Output - Layup Limbo
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Floor-General - Special Grade

Baller Vow:
+ In Exchange for playing with Kareem, Magic must retire early and let MJ three-peat

Key Chapters:
- Los Angeles School loses conference cross-over
- Hooper Hiccup vs Los Angeles School, Battle 5 - Floor General - Grade 2
- Sealed for 15 battles

2.

Larry Bird - (Grain Version) Todo
Grade: 1
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Precision Passer
+ Idle Cardio
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 3
+ Floor-General - Grade 1
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 3

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a successful non-player NBA career, Bird will have to deal with a chronic back condition while he plays

Key Chapters:
+ Boston School wins Conference Cross-over
- Hooper Burnout vs Los Angeles School - Floor-General - Grade 3
- Hooper Burnout vs Milwaukee School - Floor-General - Grade 3
- Hooper Hiccup vs Los Angeles School, Battle 7 - Bucket-Getter - Grade 4
+ Hooper Flash Flurry vs New York School - Bucket-Getter - Special Grade
+ Hooper Flash vs Los Angeles School, Battle 5 - Bucket-Getter - Special Grade

3.

Moses Malone - (Grain Version) kusakabe
Grade: 1 2
Hoop Expansion - Board, Board, Board

Ball Techniques:
+ Rebound Rendezvous
+ New Swish Technique; Simple Dunkin
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 1 3
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 1 3
+ Stoppah - Grade 2
+ Board-Bringer - Special Grade Grade 1

4.

Bernard King - (Grain Version) Mosquito Curse
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 1

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for bossing Kareem, Malone’s MVPs may never be taken seriously

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Boston School

5.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar - (Grain Version) Kenjaku
Grade: Special 2
Hoop Expansion - Almost Lebron

Ball Techniques:
+ Two Way Titan - Two season use
+ Elegant Efficiency
+ Post Perfection; Reverse Ball-Technique - Gravity Giant
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 1 3
+ Board-Getter - Special Grade Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for playing with Magic, Kareem must lose in all his best years

[AEnigma]

^ As stated in the general project thread, will count this ballot and take “computer issues” at face value, so long as there is no moderator confirmation that a permanent ban was issued.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Larry Bird
4 - Isiah Thomas
5 - Moncrief

No one expects the Knicks to do anything and they really suck when King isn't there yet they're making the Celtics go to the final game and no one's even voting him top 2? He didn't win an MVP or anything so I get it but feels like people are voting by name maybe.
I know he's Tragic Johnson but his stats are better during the playoffs and he played better in the final anyway. Taking a few clips to say the famous playmaker with 13 assists was worse than the famous playmaker with 3 assists seems weird. Especially since it seems Magics assists are worth more to people. He also has the higher TS and the eyetest seems kind of bad for Bird. Just feel voting him above would be a rings vote and not who I think was better.

Guards aren't real DPOYS I know but Sid's the best player on a team that made the top 4 and won 50 games so he should get some love right?

I know analytics and advanced whatever doesn't like him but 21 points and 11 assists and leading good offenses too. I don't know if IT's assists are real but he was on a lot of really good teams and most people say he led them. Also, if the whole thing about assists being real is about dribbling the ball then doesn't it matter IT was one of the best in the league?. It's not like he's waiting in the corner or something.

Offensive Player of the Year

1- Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Isiah Thomas

Don't really know who to vote for on defense so I'll sit this one out.

Seeing a lot of Bernard King love and none for Adrian Dantley but this is the most extreme.

Some points to note:
(a) In a 79 game (77 for King) regular season sample, Dantley scored 30.1 ppg (best in league) v. King's 26.3. Dantley's ts% was .652 (2nd in league) to King's .619. Dantley also played 1 more game and a few more minutes so it can't be durability.
Dantley led the league in Win Shares, WS/48, PER, Offensive Box Score +/-, Offensive Rating, Fouls drawn, and Fouls made.
(b) In a 12 game (11 for Dantley) playoff sample, King stepped up in the playoffs with 34.8 points (best in league) on .620 ts% in 12 games; Dantley also stepped up his volume scoring 32.2 but his efficiency dropped to .604 ts%.
(c) In terms of style, both were known as post-up threes, neither played much defense, King has a slight rebounding edge, Dantley a fairly strong edge in assists, neither were warm, fuzzy types. fwiw Dantley did get the nickname The Teacher and raves from Chuck Daly for his leadership and practice habits (and even some for defense!) in Detroit later but his main coach during his Utah years, Frank Layden, ripped him as a selfish jerk (though he later tried to recant those remarks).

Dantley's team had the higher rated team offense, New York much the better defense, they had similar records (45 wins for Utah, 47 for NY) and went equally far in the playoffs both losing in close series in the second round. Hubie Brown as New York's coach impressed me more than Layden. So, the regular season stats favor Dantley more strongly than the postseason ones favor King. King got the press because he played in the media capital of NY while Dantley was often ignored because Utah was arguably the least national media of any team. I can see voting King over Dantley for that hot 12 game stretch; but picking him #1 in the league while completely ignoring the better player for the other 79 games seems wrong to me. I tend to go with the stronger sample size unless one player had a complete meltdown or there are non-statistical factors involved. I don't see those here.

I think the earlier talks in the project have convinced me not to really care about a number like PER to be honest.

You've sold me on putting Dantley somewhere though

[One_and_Done]

1 - Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Larry Bird
4 - Isiah Thomas
5 - Moncrief

No one expects the Knicks to do anything and they really suck when King isn't there yet they're making the Celtics go to the final game and no one's even voting him top 2? He didn't win an MVP or anything so I get it but feels like people are voting by name maybe.
I know he's Tragic Johnson but his stats are better during the playoffs and he played better in the final anyway. Taking a few clips to say the famous playmaker with 13 assists was worse than the famous playmaker with 3 assists seems weird. Especially since it seems Magics assists are worth more to people. He also has the higher TS and the eyetest seems kind of bad for Bird. Just feel voting him above would be a rings vote and not who I think was better.

Guards aren't real DPOYS I know but Sid's the best player on a team that made the top 4 and won 50 games so he should get some love right?

I know analytics and advanced whatever doesn't like him but 21 points and 11 assists and leading good offenses too. I don't know if IT's assists are real but he was on a lot of really good teams and most people say he led them. Also, if the whole thing about assists being real is about dribbling the ball then doesn't it matter IT was one of the best in the league?. It's not like he's waiting in the corner or something.

Offensive Player of the Year

1- Bernard King
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Isiah Thomas

Don't really know who to vote for on defense so I'll sit this one out.

Seeing a lot of Bernard King love and none for Adrian Dantley but this is the most extreme.

Some points to note:
(a) In a 79 game (77 for King) regular season sample, Dantley scored 30.1 ppg (best in league) v. King's 26.3. Dantley's ts% was .652 (2nd in league) to King's .619. Dantley also played 1 more game and a few more minutes so it can't be durability.
Dantley led the league in Win Shares, WS/48, PER, Offensive Box Score +/-, Offensive Rating, Fouls drawn, and Fouls made.
(b) In a 12 game (11 for Dantley) playoff sample, King stepped up in the playoffs with 34.8 points (best in league) on .620 ts% in 12 games; Dantley also stepped up his volume scoring 32.2 but his efficiency dropped to .604 ts%.
(c) In terms of style, both were known as post-up threes, neither played much defense, King has a slight rebounding edge, Dantley a fairly strong edge in assists, neither were warm, fuzzy types. fwiw Dantley did get the nickname The Teacher and raves from Chuck Daly for his leadership and practice habits (and even some for defense!) in Detroit later but his main coach during his Utah years, Frank Layden, ripped him as a selfish jerk (though he later tried to recant those remarks).

Dantley's team had the higher rated team offense, New York much the better defense, they had similar records (45 wins for Utah, 47 for NY) and went equally far in the playoffs both losing in close series in the second round. Hubie Brown as New York's coach impressed me more than Layden. So, the regular season stats favor Dantley more strongly than the postseason ones favor King. King got the press because he played in the media capital of NY while Dantley was often ignored because Utah was arguably the least national media of any team. I can see voting King over Dantley for that hot 12 game stretch; but picking him #1 in the league while completely ignoring the better player for the other 79 games seems wrong to me. I tend to go with the stronger sample size unless one player had a complete meltdown or there are non-statistical factors involved. I don't see those here.

Winning bias. King was a 'winner', whereas Dantley was supposedly a 'loser', even though the Piston were great with Dantley as their lead scorer in the late 80s and would have won titles with him if he wasn't traded. In reality Utah won 2 fewer games than NY this year, and made it just as far in the playoffs.

[DNice68]

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Bernard King
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Sidney Moncrief

[AEnigma]

Both King and Dantley missed 27 games in 1985, but while the Jazz chugged along unabated, the Knicks became the clear worst team in the league. Dantley was never anywhere near as impactful as his efficiency might suggest; how you get your points matters too.

[penbeast0]

Both King and Dantley missed 27 games in 1985, but while Utah chugged along unabated, the Knicks became the clear worst team in the league. Dantley was never anywhere near as impactful as his efficiency might suggest; how you get your points matters too.

New York dropped like a paralyzed pigeon based on going from the best defensive team in the league to 19th/23. If you ever saw King, you would probably realize he had very little to do with their success in that area.

They lost starting center Bill Cartwright (who went on to help MJ win titles), reserve center Marvin "the Human Eraser" Webster, and starting PF Truck Robinson for some combination of career journeymen Pat Cummings, Ken "the Animal" Bannister, James Bailey, and SF Louis Orr trying to play up. That's a massive defensive downgrade and more than explains the Knicks falling completely off the table.

Remember that they were a less efficient offense than Utah in 84 (hard to blame that on King though admittedly he didn't pass much for someone with the ball in his hands that much) but while both teams dropped with their star scorer out, Utah's offense dropped off worse. Utah did drop 8 games from 49 wins to 41 which seems a reasonable response to losing your best player for a third of the season. And they dropped that badly despite drastically improving their defense to best in the league as their offense tanked from top 10 to bottom 3. Interestingly, Utah's personnel changed very little except for rookie reserve PG John Stockton who is unlikely to be a key ingredient in less than 20 mpg so hard to explain the defensive performance.

[AEnigma]

Both King and Dantley missed 27 games in 1985, but while Utah chugged along unabated, the Knicks became the clear worst team in the league. Dantley was never anywhere near as impactful as his efficiency might suggest; how you get your points matters too.

New York dropped like a paralyzed pigeon based on going from the best defensive team in the league to 19th/23. If you ever saw King, you would probably realize he had very little to do with their success in that area.

They lost starting center Bill Cartwright (who went on to help MJ win titles), reserve center Marvin "the Human Eraser" Webster, and starting PF Truck Robinson for some combination of career journeymen Pat Cummings, Ken "the Animal" Bannister, James Bailey, and SF Louis Orr trying to play up. That's a massive defensive downgrade and more than explains the Knicks falling completely off the table.

All of that already happened in 1985.

Remember that they were a less efficient offense than Utah in 84 (hard to blame that on King though admittedly he didn't pass much for someone with the ball in his hands that much) but while both teams dropped with their star scorer out, Utah's offense dropped off worse. Utah did drop 8 games from 49 wins to 41 which seems a reasonable response to losing your best player for a third of the season. And they dropped that badly despite drastically improving their defense to best in the league as their offense tanked from top 10 to bottom 3. Interestingly, Utah's personnel changed very little except for rookie reserve PG John Stockton who is unlikely to be a key ingredient in less than 20 mpg so hard to explain the defensive performance.

1985 Jazz ppg with Dantley: 110
1985 Jazz ppg without Dantley: 106.9 (-3.1)

1985 Knicks ppg with King: 109.2
1985 Knicks ppg without King: 97.1 (-12.1)

The Jazz went 13-14 without Dantley; the Knicks went 5-22 without King.