Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year

[Woodsanity]

2024 SGA playoff stats: PER: 25.5, BPM: 9.2

2024 Tatum playoff stats: PER: 20.1, BPM: 3.7

SGA is far more effective than Tatum in both RS and PS.

Its night and day.

Please don't compare a legit superstar with a good all star who is just playing on an all time great team.

That guy couldn't even win FMVP over Brown.

FYI Celtics were already a 53 win team the year before Tatum was even drafted. There is historically very few top 3 picks who were drafted on such stacked teams.

[The Servant]

According to a lot of people, apparently yes.

According to me and numbers and results, no.

Wasn't Tatum's true shooting percentage 58% last year (56% is league average). Very telling this graphic leaves out efficiency.

[Larry_Russell]

2024 SGA playoff stats: PER: 25.5, BPM: 9.2

2024 Tatum playoff stats: PER: 20.1, BPM: 3.7

SGA is far more effective than Tatum in both RS and PS.

Its night and day.

Please don't compare a legit superstar with a good all star who is just playing on an all time great team.

That guy couldn't even win FMVP over Brown.

FYI Celtics were already a 53 win team the year before Tatum was even drafted. There is historically very few top 3 picks who were drafted on such stacked teams.

Someone didnt watch their opening game of the season, or any of the playoff games last season.

Tatum 100% should have won finals MVP. He dominated and led the team in almost every single statistic. That he didnt was just trolling from the media with voting rights.

[tsherkin]

Wasn't Tatum's true shooting percentage 58% last year (56% is league average). Very telling this graphic leaves out efficiency.

Nope.

League average was 58% last season and Tatum was at 60.4%.

[OkcSinceSGA]

What a dumb thread.

Tatum has won far more (while apparently having a overrated team based on end of season awards, allstar nods, all defense voting, all nba voting, etc) than SGA, he is willingly sacrificing his own stats to win as a team, plays within the system at all times.

Media votes for flash, and SGA has far more of that then JT, for sure.

Tatum is the better player.

SGA is a lesser version of OKC Westbrook at this time.

This reads like someone who’s never watched basketball outside of Boston before. “Lesser Russell Westbrook”? Huh? He’s a lot more like peak Wade or Kobe than Westbrook.

Not a **** chance.
Someone is into the coolaid too early in the morning here.

PEak Kobe??? wtf???????

Yep. He’s putting up guard stat combinations not seen since Wade/Jordan. Last year his season crushes Kobe’s best season in terms of impact/efficiency. Not saying he’s proven to be greater yet, because Kobe’s legacy is miles ahead. But for a one season peak he blows Kobe away and every single piece of data shows that. People will come around once they start winning rings.

[tsherkin]

Tatum 100% should have won finals MVP. He dominated and led the team in almost every single statistic. That he didnt was just trolling from the media with voting rights.

No, there's a pretty good and compelling argument that he shouldn't have won the Finals MVP. There's a similar argument that he should have, but he was pretty terrible as a scorer. 50.5% TS against a playoff league average of 56.6% was ABYSMAL. 38.8% FG was atrocious. 26.3% on 7.6 3PA/g was brutal.

He had his customarily-strong all-around game, though, and he also only took 19.6 FGA/g. He didn't overshoot, he didn't shoot his team out of games. He let himself be used as a decoy a lot. He let Brown get on-ball. He managed 7.2 apg. He was very good on D. He did lots of things well.

But to suggest that there isn't an argument for anyone else is a little odd, particularly given how rough Tatum was in his role as focal scorer.

[Larry_Russell]

Tatum 100% should have won finals MVP. He dominated and led the team in almost every single statistic. That he didnt was just trolling from the media with voting rights.

No, there's a pretty good and compelling argument that he shouldn't have won the Finals MVP. There's a similar argument that he should have, but he was pretty terrible as a scorer. 50.5% TS against a playoff league average of 56.6% was ABYSMAL. 38.8% FG was atrocious. 26.3% on 7.6 3PA/g was brutal.

He had his customarily-strong all-around game, though, and he also only took 19.6 FGA/g. He didn't overshoot, he didn't shoot his team out of games. He let himself be used as a decoy a lot. He let Brown get on-ball. He managed 7.2 apg. He was very good on D. He did lots of things well.

But to suggest that there isn't an argument for anyone else is a little odd, particularly given how rough Tatum was in his role as focal scorer.

He led the team in scoring, rebounds, assists, First tim ein history of the nBA that someone did that and didnt win it.

He played amazing defense, he made all the decisions that closed out games,


Brown played very very well, and shot a bit better But is that why he got it?


Cause Brown and Tatum on Defense was equal


Tatum had more points, rebounds, assists.


Brown shot better

[tsherkin]

He led the team in scoring, rebounds, assists, First tim ein history of the nBA that someone did that and didnt win it.

And? Raw box score production means only so much. Shooting 20 times per game, even quite poorly, will get you raw scoring volume. That's what Tatum did. The 1.4 ppg more Tatum scored over Brown? Not impressive in that series at all. He also shot 27/74 over the first 4 games of the series (36.5% FG). So again, take that for what you will.

Tatum did other things, as I mentioned, so there's space to argue that his broader utility merited the award, but holy crap, he was an awful scorer in that series. And Brown scored, as I mentioned, 1.4 ppg less on 3% better efficiency (still below playoff league average, though). And was himself a 5.0 apg player, so again, the gap there was small. And his defensive utility was showcased the whole series as well.

My point, again, isn't that Tatum had no business winning it. My point was that there is a compelling argument supporting Brown's winning the award.

[Primedeion]

This reads like someone who’s never watched basketball outside of Boston before. “Lesser Russell Westbrook”? Huh? He’s a lot more like peak Wade or Kobe than Westbrook.

Not a **** chance.
Someone is into the coolaid too early in the morning here.

PEak Kobe??? wtf???????

Yep. He’s putting up guard stat combinations not seen since Wade/Jordan. Last year his season crushes Kobe’s best season in terms of impact/efficiency. Not saying he’s proven to be greater yet, because Kobe’s legacy is miles ahead. But for a one season peak he blows Kobe away and every single piece of data shows that. People will come around once they start winning rings.

You're delusional. Peak Kobe was #1 in the league in minute-adjusted RAPM and was #1 among all non-Celtics in +/- and +/- per game . Exactly how is SGA FaRZ MOREZ IMPacPulz? And I hope you understand how comically inflated stats are now compared to the dead ball era.

[tsherkin]

You're delusional. Peak Kobe was #1 in the league in minute-adjusted RAPM and was #1 among all non-Celtics in +/- and +/- per game . Exactly how is SGA FaRZ MOREZ IMPacPulz? And I hope you understand how comically inflated stats are now compared to the dead ball era.

"Delusional" is a strong word. It's pretty clear that SGA is a better scorer, and not by a small margin. Kobe was great, but he wasn't nearly as good a shooter and had a penchant for disastrously stupid shots which he didn't make at a particularly high percentage most of the time, which undercut his overall value at times. Ultimately, this speaks more well of SGA than it does ill of Kobe, though, because Bryant was legitimately among the best ever.

That said, crappy posts with a bunch of AlTeRnAtINg CAPS don't really sell your point with any substance.

[hugepatsfan]

Well two years ago (22-23) Tatum finished 4th in MVP voting, SGA 5th. I think many thought the gap was probably close then. Tatum probably had the edge in most minds because he was the "incumbent". SGA outplayed him last year and I think in most minds is the better player now.

I don't think there's some crater of difference between the two, but I don't really hesitate to put SGA ahead either. Ignoring Embiid because injury history plays in as much as actual quality of player... I have Joker/Luka/Giannis as the clear cut top 3. I have SGA as the clear cut guy next behind them. Then I have Tatum as the clear cut next guy behind SGA. Again, this ignores Embiid because he's hard to place since the idea of a fully healthy Embiid doesn't even seem to exist for long term anymore.

[OkcSinceSGA]

You're delusional. Peak Kobe was #1 in the league in minute-adjusted RAPM and was #1 among all non-Celtics in +/- and +/- per game . Exactly how is SGA FaRZ MOREZ IMPacPulz? And I hope you understand how comically inflated stats are now compared to the dead ball era.

"Delusional" is a strong word. It's pretty clear that SGA is a better scorer, and not by a small margin. Kobe was great, but he wasn't nearly as good a shooter and had a penchant for disastrously stupid shots which he didn't make at a particularly high percentage most of the time, which undercut his overall value at times. Ultimately, this speaks more well of SGA than it does ill of Kobe, though, because Bryant was legitimately among the best ever.

That said, crappy posts with a bunch of AlTeRnAtINg CAPS don't really sell your point with any substance.

Well and Kobe was never the playmaker SGA is. Defensively Kobe is certainly a better POA defender, but worse off ball defender. So if SGA isn’t clearly worse overall on D and is a better (or more efficient at least) scorer+better playmaker and finisher… I don’t get why this is hard to accept for people?

[Primedeion]

You're delusional. Peak Kobe was #1 in the league in minute-adjusted RAPM and was #1 among all non-Celtics in +/- and +/- per game . Exactly how is SGA FaRZ MOREZ IMPacPulz? And I hope you understand how comically inflated stats are now compared to the dead ball era.

"Delusional" is a strong word. It's pretty clear that SGA is a better scorer, and not by a small margin. Kobe was great, but he wasn't nearly as good a shooter and had a penchant for disastrously stupid shots which he didn't make at a particularly high percentage most of the time, which undercut his overall value at times. Ultimately, this speaks more well of SGA than it does ill of Kobe, though, because Bryant was legitimately among the best ever.

That said, crappy posts with a bunch of AlTeRnAtINg CAPS don't really sell your point with any substance.

Pretty clear he's a better scorer?

I'm pretty sure you're the same genius that suggested Tyrese Haliburton had a better offensive peak, so I'm not surprised at this blubbering nonsense. Sit down.

[tsherkin]

Well and Kobe was never the playmaker SGA is.

Actually, there, I'd say they are pretty close. Kobe had his APG suppressed in the triangle a bunch. I imagine that in today's environment with spacing and developed PnR strategy, he'd look just fine... but he was also a 6 apg guy a couple of times.

Pretty clear he's a better scorer?

I'm pretty sure you're the same genius that suggested Tyrese Haliburton had a better offensive peak, so I'm not surprised at this blubbering nonsense. Sit down.

Yeah. He's a better shooter, that one is pretty much impossible to overlook. And he's a dramatically superior off-dribble scorer in the middle spaces. And he's a better 3pt shooter. Like, in essentially every way but top end volume, he's been a superior scorer. And a lot of it off of action very similar to what Kobe saw in his own time, and which was very effective and available in the 90s and 2000s.

It's okay to like a player, but there IS a point where failing to acknowledge the abilities and impact of other players becomes a sort of blindspot.

[brackdan70]

2024 SGA playoff stats: PER: 25.5, BPM: 9.2

2024 Tatum playoff stats: PER: 20.1, BPM: 3.7

SGA is far more effective than Tatum in both RS and PS.

Its night and day.

Please don't compare a legit superstar with a good all star who is just playing on an all time great team.

That guy couldn't even win FMVP over Brown.

FYI Celtics were already a 53 win team the year before Tatum was even drafted. There is historically very few top 3 picks who were drafted on such stacked teams.

One year does not equal surpassed
SGA has never even made a deep playoff run.
The 2017 Celtics did win 53 games and made the ECF finals but the top 3 and 6th and 7th scorers on that team did not come back.

[Bush4Ever]

As a Celtics fan, I think that SGA's average performance is higher but not to such an extent that Tatum couldn't outplay him over a seven-game series a meaningful percentage of the time.

Maybe the distributions are such that over 10 series, SGA has the better one six or seven times...or thereabouts.

I still wouldn't trade Tatum for SGA straight-across though.

[Primedeion]

Well and Kobe was never the playmaker SGA is.

Actually, there, I'd say they are pretty close. Kobe had his APG suppressed in the triangle a bunch. I imagine that in today's environment with spacing and developed PnR strategy, he'd look just fine... but he was also a 6 apg guy a couple of times.

Pretty clear he's a better scorer?

I'm pretty sure you're the same genius that suggested Tyrese Haliburton had a better offensive peak, so I'm not surprised at this blubbering nonsense. Sit down.

Yeah. He's a better shooter, that one is pretty much impossible to overlook. And he's a dramatically superior off-dribble scorer in the middle spaces. And he's a better 3pt shooter. Like, in essentially every way but top end volume, he's been a superior scorer. And a lot of it off of action very similar to what Kobe saw in his own time, and which was very effective and available in the 90s and 2000s.

It's okay to like a player, but there IS a point where failing to acknowledge the abilities and impact of other players becomes a sort of blindspot.

Again, I'm pretty sure you're the same genius that suggested Tyrese Haliburton had a better offensive peak. It's pretty obvious which one of us has the blindspot.

Oh, and SGA finished the postseason with a -0.5 opponent-adjusted relative TS. I know you don't know this, but peak Kobe was at +4.9 opponent adjusted rTS in the PS. And he was doing that while posting a higher inflation-adjusted scoring rate. Even you aren't foolish enough to place more stock on the RS.

[tsherkin]

Oh, and SGA finished the postseason with a -0.5 opponent-adjusted relative TS. I know you don't know this, but peak Kobe was at +4.9 opponent adjusted rTS in the PS. And he was doing that while posting a higher inflation-adjusted scoring rate. Even you aren't foolish enough to place more stock on the RS.

If you want to talk about postseason efficiency failure, Kobe isn't going to come out smelling like a rose once you start looking at his performances, especially in the Finals...


Also, you're looking at raw per-possession scoring output as an end in and of itself, which it is not.

[Primedeion]

Oh, and SGA finished the postseason with a -0.5 opponent-adjusted relative TS. I know you don't know this, but peak Kobe was at +4.9 opponent adjusted rTS in the PS. And he was doing that while posting a higher inflation-adjusted scoring rate. Even you aren't foolish enough to place more stock on the RS.

If you want to talk about postseason efficiency failure, Kobe isn't going to come out smelling like a rose once you start looking at his performances, especially in the Finals...


Also, you're looking at raw per-possession scoring output as an end in and of itself, which it is not.

Yeah, and his peak postseason scoring performance is still way better than anything we've seen from SGA.

30.5 pts per 75 (inflation adjusted) with a opponent-adjusted relative TS of +4.9 in a Finals run.

Give me a SGA run that's even close? That's what I thought.

SGA has played 11 freaking postseason games as a superstar and he's a much better scorer? Do you realize how ludicrous you sound?

11 games.

[tsherkin]

Oh, and SGA finished the postseason with a -0.5 opponent-adjusted relative TS. I know you don't know this, but peak Kobe was at +4.9 opponent adjusted rTS in the PS. And he was doing that while posting a higher inflation-adjusted scoring rate. Even you aren't foolish enough to place more stock on the RS.

If you want to talk about postseason efficiency failure, Kobe isn't going to come out smelling like a rose once you start looking at his performances, especially in the Finals...


Also, you're looking at raw per-possession scoring output as an end in and of itself, which it is not.

Yeah, and his peak postseason scoring performance is still way better than anything we've seen from SGA.

30.5 pts per 75 (inflation adjusted) with a opponent-adjusted relative TS of +4.9 in a Finals run.

Give me a SGA run that's even close? That's what I thought.

SGA has played 11 freaking postseason games as a superstar and he's a much better scorer? Do you realize how ludicrous you sound?

11 games.

We are talking about a specific season, buds. Maybe you forgot to pay attention?