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Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league

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Do you think Scottie Barnes can be the best player on a championship team?

Yes
107
36%
No
191
64%
 
Total votes: 298

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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#221 » by AbC? » Mon Oct 28, 2024 1:54 am

TakeYourHeart wrote:Scottie's biggest issue is he has nothing in his game to gain an advantage over a defender from the perimeter. No quick first step, no elite handles, no pullup 3 threat, bad at getting downhill off a screen, nothing. There's a whole lot of 0 advantages being created for himself and others when he has the ball there. Hitting open cutters is nice and all but when a locked in defense takes that stuff away the struggles become apparent. There's no such thing as playmaking if you can't create an advantage for yourself, he needs to add something to his game that bends the defense and then his passing can shine. Even Gradey, who is drawing hard closeouts and attacking them, is starting to do things that throws the whole defense into rotation.

Now there is something fairly obvious he could do, given his current skillset...mismatch hunting, backing down smaller players and playing out of the post instead of the perimeter. This is by far the best way for Scottie to shift the defense and create advantages, forcing the help/double teams to come. And I have a feeling the team knows this, but they're trying to see if he can develop another part of his game before resorting to this.


Accurate. Starting year 4 now and he hasn't shown any major improvements in his ability to generate advantage. It's probably not coming. Bully ball and post-ups is not the shot diet of primary creators because it so heavily match-up dependent. 2 games against the Cavs and Wolves kind of highlighted it. He's not a Giannis that can impose himself on any defense.

I get that management has to roll with Barnes because there's not much else to work with (their own fault) but trying to make him something he's not just seems like an exercise in futility.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#222 » by PhilBlackson » Mon Oct 28, 2024 1:56 am

Does Scottie have the potential to be a superstar? IMO Yes!

Has he shown that he's on that trajectory yet? NO...but this is THE season that he's going to show he's it or not.

All the excuses are gone. There is no confusion, it is been made abundantly clear from management on down this is HIS team (period). They are literally bringing in the pieces to try & fit around him, they've clearly stated they intend on making him the focal point of the offence. Now it's on Scottie to produce.

Another 20ppg type of season is not enough, that's flat out just not the production of a superstar player. You can add the rebounds, assists but those kinds of numbers are that of a very valuable player that is somewhat AN engine of the offence but not THE engine....those numbers are literally an old James Harden. Both are arguable all-star players at that production but the numbers tell you the level of impact. It's definitely a major contributor but that's not a superstar. Ironically this is THE age when Harden took off on a bad Rockets' team (so I don't wanna hear the excuse about this roster especially when there are numerous other players who took off without a great cast of surrounding players)

...and I don't even expect him to put up 25.8+ppg as Harden (who still wasn't even stamped as a "superstar" then) but his level of production made you believe he could become one and he arguably did (unfortunately he's also the biggest superstar choke artist of all time too). But the superstars all break out by the 4th+ season. They might not hit the absolute heights of their primes but it becomes ABUNDANTLY CLEAR they there are on clear and massive ascension....you can look at Giannis, Tatum, Ja, Harden...go down the list. They all went on tears where you were just like "damn that dude is coming!" (pause...no Diddy).

We NEED to see that type step up and most importantly LEVEL OF AGGRESSION/ASSERTIVENESS. Teams need to FEEL your star player CONTROLLING the game/their team on majority of nights. Scottie is yet to do that, I believe he's fully capable of doing so but he has to actually DO IT/put up that level of production that is that of superstar on the rise, no more blending in with the crowd and no more excuses. It's put up or shut up time.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#223 » by bballsparkin » Mon Oct 28, 2024 2:26 am

MEDIC wrote:
Lowry checked all of the boxes for legit franchise player. The only thing he lacked was size.

With his Bball IQ, Work Ethic, Offensive Skill level, competitive fire & defensive capability, he was the closest thing we had to franchise player (aside from Kawhi).

You put Lowry's mind in VC's body & you have a top 10 NBA player of all time.


Lowry's mind in VC's body might say, "I'm not playing in Toronto!". 8-)
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#224 » by srhcan » Mon Oct 28, 2024 2:45 am

Senbonzakura wrote:I bring this up to illustrate how imperative it is for this team to tank next season. We do not have a player on this team with the upside of best player on a championship team. Scottie's really good and I think he can be the perfect complimentary guy to an actual #1 guy similar to the guy who imo he is most similar to (Pippen), but he's not got the upside to be the #1 guy. The issue being that those guys are typically excellent at something and Scottie is sort of just really good at everything. He's not an elite shot creator, he's not really an elite finisher, he's athletic but not one of the top athletes.

I think it's clear we need to get our hands on someone who can become a top 5-10 player in the league and #1 option on a championship team, and the best way to do so is through the draft (whether that's actually drafting the player or using the draft asset to acquire said player in a trade). I think without that happening this team is on the highway to mediocrity.

I ansewered Yes. The best version of Scottie will average triple-double and will absolutely be the best player on the championship team.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#225 » by Vampirate » Mon Oct 28, 2024 3:25 am

AbC? wrote:
TakeYourHeart wrote:Scottie's biggest issue is he has nothing in his game to gain an advantage over a defender from the perimeter. No quick first step, no elite handles, no pullup 3 threat, bad at getting downhill off a screen, nothing. There's a whole lot of 0 advantages being created for himself and others when he has the ball there. Hitting open cutters is nice and all but when a locked in defense takes that stuff away the struggles become apparent. There's no such thing as playmaking if you can't create an advantage for yourself, he needs to add something to his game that bends the defense and then his passing can shine. Even Gradey, who is drawing hard closeouts and attacking them, is starting to do things that throws the whole defense into rotation.

Now there is something fairly obvious he could do, given his current skillset...mismatch hunting, backing down smaller players and playing out of the post instead of the perimeter. This is by far the best way for Scottie to shift the defense and create advantages, forcing the help/double teams to come. And I have a feeling the team knows this, but they're trying to see if he can develop another part of his game before resorting to this.


Accurate. Starting year 4 now and he hasn't shown any major improvements in his ability to generate advantage. It's probably not coming. Bully ball and post-ups is not the shot diet of primary creators because it so heavily match-up dependent. 2 games against the Cavs and Wolves kind of highlighted it. He's not a Giannis that can impose himself on any defense.

I get that management has to roll with Barnes because there's not much else to work with (their own fault) but trying to make him something he's not just seems like an exercise in futility.


I'm going to both defend and criticize Barnes in 1 post.

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His best weapon is his deep midrange shot .387% there. If he ever gets the confidence he has the tools to just shoot over most players. With his wingspan and legs I don't think he needs to many moves to create separation. It's just going to rely on his handle.

From what i've seen, his off season work was mostly on his shooting mechanics and it was smooth in the videos, however in those same videos his handle was still shaky.

let's go 1 step at a time here, forget superstar for a bit, to get to legit all star level it likely just depends on him mastering the midrange to the point defenses are worried about it.

This all being said, it's no guarantee he gets there and what he's shown so far overall just isn't good enough, especially for his contract. I guess the one saving grace is if he doesn't, it might lead to a very good pick in this draft.

If we're doing this, don't short cut it and do it for the whole season. Barnes as the defacto #1.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#226 » by JL2002 » Mon Oct 28, 2024 10:57 am

Tacoma wrote:
JL2002 wrote:
PushDaRock wrote:We all know he likely isn't but we don't really have anything to lose in letting him try to be and show us whether he is or isn't.


Agreed. Out of the 2021 draft, outside of the top 3, Scottie is definitely the best player with superstar potential available. Out of who we are able to get via draft, trades and free agent, Scottie is the best chance we have. If Giannis can be who he is today, I don't see why Scottie can't be at Giannis level at some point. He has already shown tremendous improvement in his 3 point shot as compared to Pascal who still struggles.

Despite saying all that, if an 'elite scorer' is what you determined to be the "#1 option Superstar in this league", then I can tell you he most likely won't be that. We are a really poor man's Dallas Maverick at this point.


Giannis led MIL in scoring and was #1 option and #2 in NBA in points per game last season. If you don't see why Scottie can't be at Giannis level at some point, then why can't he be #1 option at some point?

The answer is Scottie isn't Giannis and it's a poor comparison. Giannis is much taller (4-inch), able to play bully ball because of his strength but he also has much superior lateral movement and explosive power easily to get around defenders. Barnes pretty well plays only bully ball to try to go through you because he isn't close to being as physically gifted to get by you.

Giannis has a determined scorer's mentality with an aggressive "'I'm going to the basket now so get the f**k out of my way" demeanor that you don't (and likely never will) find in Barnes who mostly looks to pass first.

Still, with his skill-set, Scottie could someday become a top 15-20 player but he and Giannis are both mentally and physically very different and I don't see Barnes reaching close to Giannis' Top 5 level at any point because of these differences.


I understand why you would think I'm trying to compare Scottie to Giannis, just the first player that pops out of my head. But I'm not actually comparing both players, but just at the same level as Giannis as Scottie is more of a facilitator. I think I probably should've used 'a poor man's 39yo Lebron', also what we are hoping for at this point anyway lol.

In terms of your first point, I said if an 'elite scorer' is what makes him a #1 option Superstar, then I don't see that in Scottie. I don't think he can score like Giannis, Kyrie, Steph, KD, Luka etc. He still has a lot to work on. But with the right group, he can be a #1 option for sure. Just having the rest of the BBQ crew back would free Scottie up a lot.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#227 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Oct 28, 2024 11:44 am

Let's see where he's at after 15 games. He's playing with like the full 15 man roster + 2 ways right now.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#228 » by tsherkin » Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:15 pm

Based on what I've seen so far, I can't really imagine it. He isn't an elite scorer, nor anywhere near it, and hasn't shown anything like the development arc typically seen in those guys. IT's been said by others, but he lacks any elite skill set. He's pretty good at a bunch of stuff, like defense and playmaking for his size, but his shot and his handle and his athleticism are all below par for a superstar-type player. HIs mid-range game has shown no improvement, though his short gam remains pretty strong. And yeah, I just keep coming back to the idea that he has no tools which permit him to impose his will on a defense with any consistency.

He's a good player. It's nice to have him on the team. But he doesn't smell like a superstar prospect and never really did. He doesn't look like a focal scoring option at all. He doesn't even look like a good second option scorer at the moment. But if he's going to show us any kind of leap, it'd be this season, and this season is very, very young. I suppose that means a little more patience is in order, since it is only his 4th season. The number of guys who have made enough improvement to their scoring skillset at this stage in their career to matter is pretty small, but we'll see.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#229 » by Kingsway_fan » Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:56 pm

MEDIC wrote:
TheGeneral99 wrote:
Vampirate wrote:I should say, you have no idea how hard it is to find a #1 option superstar, period.

Lowry wasn't it, Derozan wasn't it, Bosh wasn't it, Siakam wasn't it.

We've had a few seasons of Vince and 1 season of Kawhi, that's pretty much it.


I think Lowry is criminally underrated. During his prime here every advanced stat pointed him at being a superstar level impact player...he was top 10 every year in Real Plus Minus and Win Shares between 2016 and 2020. Lowry basically had Chris Paul level impact, but both Lowry and Paul were not good #1 options in the playoffs due to their size.

I think it's more of finding a top 5 player...Vince was never a top 5 player. Kawhi was only legitimate MVP level/top 5 player we've ever had.


Lowry checked all of the boxes for legit franchise player. The only thing he lacked was size.

With his Bball IQ, Work Ethic, Offensive Skill level, competitive fire & defensive capability, he was the closest thing we had to franchise player (aside from Kawhi).

You put Lowry's mind in VC's body & you have a top 10 NBA player of all time.


Lol you Lowry fan boys ..please stop smoking whatever you are on man, lol. LOWRY was barely above average NBA player and only benefitted from having superstar Kawhi carry the team ... he was the star... Lowry carried no one on any team, at any time ... Franchise player?.. lol post that in the general board... they laugh you out of town.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#230 » by MiamiSPX » Mon Oct 28, 2024 7:51 pm

I am not convinced at this point that anyone from that draft class will be a true, without question, franchise player.

Still a pretty good draft that will yield several All-Stars and a couple of guys that will perennially be in the conversation for DPOY (Jones and Suggs).
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#231 » by TheGeneral99 » Mon Oct 28, 2024 8:03 pm

Kingsway_fan wrote:
MEDIC wrote:
TheGeneral99 wrote:
I think Lowry is criminally underrated. During his prime here every advanced stat pointed him at being a superstar level impact player...he was top 10 every year in Real Plus Minus and Win Shares between 2016 and 2020. Lowry basically had Chris Paul level impact, but both Lowry and Paul were not good #1 options in the playoffs due to their size.

I think it's more of finding a top 5 player...Vince was never a top 5 player. Kawhi was only legitimate MVP level/top 5 player we've ever had.


Lowry checked all of the boxes for legit franchise player. The only thing he lacked was size.

With his Bball IQ, Work Ethic, Offensive Skill level, competitive fire & defensive capability, he was the closest thing we had to franchise player (aside from Kawhi).

You put Lowry's mind in VC's body & you have a top 10 NBA player of all time.


Lol you Lowry fan boys ..please stop smoking whatever you are on man, lol. LOWRY was barely above average NBA player and only benefitted from having superstar Kawhi carry the team ... he was the star... Lowry carried no one on any team, at any time ... Franchise player?.. lol post that in the general board... they laugh you out of town.


He led the Raptors to 48, 49, 56, 51, 58 and 53 win seasons without Kawhi.

He was the primary reason we were a perennial 50+ win team and this reflected by him being top 10 in Win Shares and Plus Minus nearly every season.

Lowry was ridiculous in his prime...just an absolute bulldog and leader on both ends who made everyone better.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#232 » by Mattatron » Mon Oct 28, 2024 9:48 pm

Kingsway_fan wrote:
MEDIC wrote:
TheGeneral99 wrote:
I think Lowry is criminally underrated. During his prime here every advanced stat pointed him at being a superstar level impact player...he was top 10 every year in Real Plus Minus and Win Shares between 2016 and 2020. Lowry basically had Chris Paul level impact, but both Lowry and Paul were not good #1 options in the playoffs due to their size.

I think it's more of finding a top 5 player...Vince was never a top 5 player. Kawhi was only legitimate MVP level/top 5 player we've ever had.


Lowry checked all of the boxes for legit franchise player. The only thing he lacked was size.

With his Bball IQ, Work Ethic, Offensive Skill level, competitive fire & defensive capability, he was the closest thing we had to franchise player (aside from Kawhi).

You put Lowry's mind in VC's body & you have a top 10 NBA player of all time.


Lol you Lowry fan boys ..please stop smoking whatever you are on man, lol. LOWRY was barely above average NBA player and only benefitted from having superstar Kawhi carry the team ... he was the star... Lowry carried no one on any team, at any time ... Franchise player?.. lol post that in the general board... they laugh you out of town.


Wtf
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#233 » by wegotthabeet » Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:15 am

tsherkin wrote:Based on what I've seen so far, I can't really imagine it. He isn't an elite scorer, nor anywhere near it, and hasn't shown anything like the development arc typically seen in those guys. IT's been said by others, but he lacks any elite skill set. He's pretty good at a bunch of stuff, like defense and playmaking for his size, but his shot and his handle and his athleticism are all below par for a superstar-type player. HIs mid-range game has shown no improvement, though his short gam remains pretty strong. And yeah, I just keep coming back to the idea that he has no tools which permit him to impose his will on a defense with any consistency.

He's a good player. It's nice to have him on the team. But he doesn't smell like a superstar prospect and never really did. He doesn't look like a focal scoring option at all. He doesn't even look like a good second option scorer at the moment. But if he's going to show us any kind of leap, it'd be this season, and this season is very, very young. I suppose that means a little more patience is in order, since it is only his 4th season. The number of guys who have made enough improvement to their scoring skillset at this stage in their career to matter is pretty small, but we'll see.


Ironically Kawhi and DeMar both made massive leaps in year five. Lowry even later. Hard to cap anyone’s potential before their rookie contract is up. Kawhi probably became a superstar in year 5.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#234 » by tsherkin » Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:58 am

wegotthabeet wrote:Ironically Kawhi and DeMar both made massive leaps in year five. Lowry even later. Hard to cap anyone’s potential before their rookie contract is up. Kawhi probably became a superstar in year 5.


Not quite. He was already a DPOY in year 4. He'd been trending up in scoring as responsibility was shuffled to him. He made the real shift in shooting ability in his second season. Season 5 was his first 20+ ppg season and first AS appearance, but he'd been making changes WELL before that. And it wasn't that massive a leap. It was a 5-point rise in his scoring average off of 2 extra shots from a guy already shooting 55% inside the arc and smashing 3s from the corner.

With Demar, he didn't make ANY massive leaps. He made incremental changes year after year. Same thing with him, though, it was more about responsibility than any grand leap. And then he continued to make small improvements moving forward. But Demar's timeline was slow as all hell and he's an oxygen thief in the playoffs and doesn't play much defense, so I'm not really interested in looking to him as a guidepost for how to treat Scottie. And Kawhi was very much better than Scottie quite a bit earlier than year 4 or 5.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#235 » by YogurtProducer » Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:39 am

Kingsway_fan wrote:
MEDIC wrote:
TheGeneral99 wrote:
I think Lowry is criminally underrated. During his prime here every advanced stat pointed him at being a superstar level impact player...he was top 10 every year in Real Plus Minus and Win Shares between 2016 and 2020. Lowry basically had Chris Paul level impact, but both Lowry and Paul were not good #1 options in the playoffs due to their size.

I think it's more of finding a top 5 player...Vince was never a top 5 player. Kawhi was only legitimate MVP level/top 5 player we've ever had.


Lowry checked all of the boxes for legit franchise player. The only thing he lacked was size.

With his Bball IQ, Work Ethic, Offensive Skill level, competitive fire & defensive capability, he was the closest thing we had to franchise player (aside from Kawhi).

You put Lowry's mind in VC's body & you have a top 10 NBA player of all time.


Lol you Lowry fan boys ..please stop smoking whatever you are on man, lol. LOWRY was barely above average NBA player and only benefitted from having superstar Kawhi carry the team ... he was the star... Lowry carried no one on any team, at any time ... Franchise player?.. lol post that in the general board... they laugh you out of town.

Lol can we just ban people who are so obviously out of touch with reality?

Lowry in a 6'6", mega athletic frame like VC is easily a HOF player. Outside of being taller and more athletic what did VC do better than Lowry?

Lowry was a better shooter, better defender, better playmaker, better rebounder, better pretty much everything that was onyl held back because he was MAYBE 6 feet tall.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/raptors-lowry-voted-among-nbas-smartest-annual-gms-poll/
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#236 » by YogurtProducer » Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:40 am

tsherkin wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:Ironically Kawhi and DeMar both made massive leaps in year five. Lowry even later. Hard to cap anyone’s potential before their rookie contract is up. Kawhi probably became a superstar in year 5.


Not quite. He was already a DPOY in year 4. He'd been trending up in scoring as responsibility was shuffled to him. He made the real shift in shooting ability in his second season. Season 5 was his first 20+ ppg season and first AS appearance, but he'd been making changes WELL before that. And it wasn't that massive a leap. It was a 5-point rise in his scoring average off of 2 extra shots from a guy already shooting 55% inside the arc and smashing 3s from the corner.

With Demar, he didn't make ANY massive leaps. He made incremental changes year after year. Same thing with him, though, it was more about responsibility than any grand leap. And then he continued to make small improvements moving forward. But Demar's timeline was slow as all hell and he's an oxygen thief in the playoffs and doesn't play much defense, so I'm not really interested in looking to him as a guidepost for how to treat Scottie. And Kawhi was very much better than Scottie quite a bit earlier than year 4 or 5.

Kawhi was also a 4th option on that Spurs team. If he was asked to be the #1 option he probably never gets the DPOY or defensive resume or reputation because it is damn hard to play both ends like that.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#237 » by tsherkin » Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:47 am

YogurtProducer wrote:Kawhi was also a 4th option on that Spurs team. If he was asked to be the #1 option he probably never gets the DPOY or defensive resume or reputation because it is damn hard to play both ends like that.


Yeah, I mean his defense declined in proportion to his scoring responsibility to at least some extent. But more to the point, his shot was there by year 2, the skill set involved in scoring was there, so what changed was scoring load more than anything else. He didn't do dramatic development in skillset. Scottie needs to do dramatic development in his ability to make shots and score efficiently before he can do anything like what Kawhi did. And Demar was in his 7th season before he started surpassing league average (rookie season on 6.6 FGA/g notwithstanding). And was then at or below for another 3 years after that as well.

So if he's the map for Scottie's career arc, that isn't worth the wait, IMHO, was my point. And Scottie's already a couple years behind someone like Kawhi. So ultimately, neither are particularly good maps for Barnes.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#238 » by Clay Davis » Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:05 pm

tsherkin wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:Kawhi was also a 4th option on that Spurs team. If he was asked to be the #1 option he probably never gets the DPOY or defensive resume or reputation because it is damn hard to play both ends like that.


Yeah, I mean his defense declined in proportion to his scoring responsibility to at least some extent. But more to the point, his shot was there by year 2, the skill set involved in scoring was there, so what changed was scoring load more than anything else. He didn't do dramatic development in skillset. Scottie needs to do dramatic development in his ability to make shots and score efficiently before he can do anything like what Kawhi did. And Demar was in his 7th season before he started surpassing league average (rookie season on 6.6 FGA/g notwithstanding). And was then at or below for another 3 years after that as well.

So if he's the map for Scottie's career arc, that isn't worth the wait, IMHO, was my point. And Scottie's already a couple years behind someone like Kawhi. So ultimately, neither are particularly good maps for Barnes.

At first I wondered "was his shot there? I remember Kobe saying that when Kawhi came into the league, he couldn't shoot. Period. Is Tsherkin lying to us?" since unless Kobe meant he truly reversed his shooting rizz over the course of a year... which is possible, I'd think it's more likely that his shot just improved incrementally.

But then I looked at Kawhi's stats and it seems like he was always a good shooter in the NBA lol. Interestingly, he was turrrrrrrrrrrrrible in college. Anyway if Scottie hadn't figured out how to become a league average within his first couple years, it's hard to imagine him becoming a truly elite shooter (which is what he needs, at this point) in the future.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#239 » by tsherkin » Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:12 pm

Clay Davis wrote:At first I wondered "was his shot there? I remember Kobe saying that when Kawhi came into the league, he couldn't shoot. Period. Is Tsherkin lying to us?"


xD

since unless Kobe meant he truly reversed his shooting rizz over the course of a year... which is possible, I'd think it's more likely that his shot just improved incrementally.

But then I looked at Kawhi's stats and it seems like he was always a good shooter lol.


He didn't take double-digit FGA/g until his 4th season, so it was probably hard to tell at the time. But he was also a 77% FT shooter as a rookie and then hasn't been under 80% since, and is over 86% on his career. Mashing almost 47% on corner 3s from his rookie season forward. 51% from 10-16 as early as his second season, and 42.4% on the long 2 that year, right?

So yeah, his shot was there early, though the sample size wasn't there. And of course, learning how to get to his shot and all that in volume against a defense focusing on him wasn't there while he was a defensive roleplayer, that developed over time. But the basics were there to a degree which is not true with Scottie. And that's aside from the athletic differences. I like Scottie, but he isn't That Guy, nor does he really profile that way outside of our desire to have such a player again very quickly. We have some rough luck in the draft, heh. At least he's far, far better than the Italian Mistake. Kawhi certainly had a developmental arc to follow, and patience with your young guys is useful. Scottie IS developing, he's shown us some things. It's just that he hasn't shown us the first thing which looks like he could leverage it to be a quality first option scorer. That's all. He looks like he's going to be a pretty sweet supporting cast guy, especially if he can find some consistency from 3. That's awesome. That's a player to keep an eye on, foster and develop, for sure. But he isn't a focal star. Those aren't that common, so it shouldn't be a surprise anyway.
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Re: Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league 

Post#240 » by YogurtProducer » Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:24 pm

tsherkin wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:Kawhi was also a 4th option on that Spurs team. If he was asked to be the #1 option he probably never gets the DPOY or defensive resume or reputation because it is damn hard to play both ends like that.


Yeah, I mean his defense declined in proportion to his scoring responsibility to at least some extent. But more to the point, his shot was there by year 2, the skill set involved in scoring was there, so what changed was scoring load more than anything else. He didn't do dramatic development in skillset. Scottie needs to do dramatic development in his ability to make shots and score efficiently before he can do anything like what Kawhi did. And Demar was in his 7th season before he started surpassing league average (rookie season on 6.6 FGA/g notwithstanding). And was then at or below for another 3 years after that as well.

So if he's the map for Scottie's career arc, that isn't worth the wait, IMHO, was my point. And Scottie's already a couple years behind someone like Kawhi. So ultimately, neither are particularly good maps for Barnes.

Yeah but again, Kawhi was also gift wrapped a lot of open 3's in a great system and was pretty low volume. Who knows what it would have looked like if he was asked to do all that Scottie has been asked from day 1.

And I wouldn't say Kawhi didn't need to do any dramatic development in skillset. From age 22 to 25 he went from a 18% USG to 30%USG AND his TS% went up. He was assisted on over 50% of his makes in his first years as a Spur to as low as 28% by the time he was a Raptor. He made significant developmental improvements to get there in terms of skill.

I wouldn't say Scottie is a couple years behind Kawhi at all. Ignoring the small sample from this year, year 3 Kawhi vs year 3 SCottie.

Kawhi - 12.8/6.2/2.0 .522/.379/.802
Scottie - 19.9/8.2/6.1 .475/.341/.781

Scottie had better counting stats, Kawhi was more efficient. Scottie was the teams #1 option, Kawhi was a 1a/b/c/d in a split between him, Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. Imagine what Scottie could have done there.

and FWIW - I don't ever foresee Scottie being an elite scoring #1 guy. BUT lets assume he does, he is not going to do it like Kawhi does it anyways. He is going to be closer to a Giannis, or a Butler, in that they are really really good in every other area but still need a guard beside them to take some pressure off more than a guy like Kawhi does.
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