Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year

[Primedeion]

If you want to talk about postseason efficiency failure, Kobe isn't going to come out smelling like a rose once you start looking at his performances, especially in the Finals...


Also, you're looking at raw per-possession scoring output as an end in and of itself, which it is not.

Yeah, and his peak postseason scoring performance is still way better than anything we've seen from SGA.

30.5 pts per 75 (inflation adjusted) with a opponent-adjusted relative TS of +4.9 in a Finals run.

Give me a SGA run that's even close? That's what I thought.

SGA has played 11 freaking postseason games as a superstar and he's a much better scorer? Do you realize how ludicrous you sound?

11 games.

We are talking about a specific season, buds. Maybe you forgot to pay attention?

Those are the postseason numbers from peak Kobe compared to the best we've seen from SGA so far. Keep up.

[zimpy27]

Oh, and SGA finished the postseason with a -0.5 opponent-adjusted relative TS. I know you don't know this, but peak Kobe was at +4.9 opponent adjusted rTS in the PS. And he was doing that while posting a higher inflation-adjusted scoring rate. Even you aren't foolish enough to place more stock on the RS.

If you want to talk about postseason efficiency failure, Kobe isn't going to come out smelling like a rose once you start looking at his performances, especially in the Finals...


Also, you're looking at raw per-possession scoring output as an end in and of itself, which it is not.

Yeah, and his peak postseason scoring performance is still way better than anything we've seen from SGA.

30.5 pts per 75 (inflation adjusted) with a opponent-adjusted relative TS of +4.9 in a Finals run.

Give me a SGA run that's even close? That's what I thought.

SGA has played 11 freaking postseason games as a superstar and he's a much better scorer? Do you realize how ludicrous you sound?

11 games.

You're very close to getting a strike for repeatedly questioning other posters intelligence. Simply argue against the post content or don't respond.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Well and Kobe was never the playmaker SGA is.

Actually, there, I'd say they are pretty close. Kobe had his APG suppressed in the triangle a bunch. I imagine that in today's environment with spacing and developed PnR strategy, he'd look just fine... but he was also a 6 apg guy a couple of times.

Pretty clear he's a better scorer?

I'm pretty sure you're the same genius that suggested Tyrese Haliburton had a better offensive peak, so I'm not surprised at this blubbering nonsense. Sit down.

Yeah. He's a better shooter, that one is pretty much impossible to overlook. And he's a dramatically superior off-dribble scorer in the middle spaces. And he's a better 3pt shooter. Like, in essentially every way but top end volume, he's been a superior scorer. And a lot of it off of action very similar to what Kobe saw in his own time, and which was very effective and available in the 90s and 2000s.

It's okay to like a player, but there IS a point where failing to acknowledge the abilities and impact of other players becomes a sort of blindspot.

Again, I'm pretty sure you're the same genius that suggested Tyrese Haliburton had a better offensive peak. It's pretty obvious which one of us has the blindspot.

Oh, and SGA finished the postseason with a -0.5 opponent-adjusted relative TS. I know you don't know this, but peak Kobe was at +4.9 opponent adjusted rTS in the PS. And he was doing that while posting a higher inflation-adjusted scoring rate. Even you aren't foolish enough to place more stock on the RS.

Why are you so emotional about this man? The league as a whole is SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient at shooting top to bottom. For several reasons. Less physical league, no hand checking, more open 3s, more ball movement etc. So relative TS% becomes less useful. Again, career wise Kobe is 100% greater. What I’m trying to relay though is in the last couple of years SGA has taken a leap to that top 5 SG echelon statistically.

It’s not an insult, it’s just the truth. He’s putting up stat combinations on both ends not done outside of Jordan/Wade. He’s a historically elite slasher (top 3 all time in drives per game combined with finishing efficiency). If you just take the last 1.5 seasons or so, he stacks up very well with Kobe, Wade, Jordan on paper.

If your answer is he needs to win rings or win more, I agree. He’s only 25. Lots of time. But from a production/efficiency standpoint he’s peaking extremely high. Just remember… the POV that I’m just crazy was something I dealt with when I said he’s a future perennial star before he played his first game.

Then I said future MVP tier guy, also got laughed at and he finished #2 last year. Also he’s been a hell of a playoff performer so far. His team just wasn’t good enough before. But now it is, and you’ll see the winning results you want.

Ps.. Haliburton comparison is irrelevant

[YogurtProducer]

According to a lot of people, apparently yes.

According to me and numbers and results, no.

Spoiler:

Did SGA pass Tatum in 2023?

"Nope, and I'll tell you why"

*Posts SGA's postseason stats from 4 years before 2023 when he was a rookie and 2nd year player*

They're the same age. They were both rookies and 2nd year players at one point.

The OP asked a question and I gave a pretty clear answer, and also acknowledged that most people don't agree.

With a question like this there's many ways to look at it.

Has Shai surpassed Tatum career wise? No.

Would he beat Tatum one on one? I don't know but I give JT the edge because of size.

Is he more important to his team? Prolly about even imo.

Did he have a more efficient individual offensive RS last year? Yes.

Has he won anything? No.

I mean I don't know what SGA has done to earn his extremely high ranking among NBA fans and analysts. He's awesome though and I look forward to him getting even better.

Stoooop he did not even win FInals or ECF MVP and has multiple all-star caliber teammates

[tsherkin]

If your answer is he needs to win rings or win more, I agree.

Yeah, if we're talking career and legacy and such, then that's a separate issue entirely. Kobe had a long prime, and got a lot done. SGA has only been playing at this level for a couple of seasons.

Ps.. Haliburton comparison is irrelevant

It is, that was nothing more than a personal attack.

[RB34]

Why are people bringing up Finals appearances?

SGA hasn’t been there, he got dog walked two games into the second round.

[Primedeion]

Actually, there, I'd say they are pretty close. Kobe had his APG suppressed in the triangle a bunch. I imagine that in today's environment with spacing and developed PnR strategy, he'd look just fine... but he was also a 6 apg guy a couple of times.



Yeah. He's a better shooter, that one is pretty much impossible to overlook. And he's a dramatically superior off-dribble scorer in the middle spaces. And he's a better 3pt shooter. Like, in essentially every way but top end volume, he's been a superior scorer. And a lot of it off of action very similar to what Kobe saw in his own time, and which was very effective and available in the 90s and 2000s.

It's okay to like a player, but there IS a point where failing to acknowledge the abilities and impact of other players becomes a sort of blindspot.

Again, I'm pretty sure you're the same genius that suggested Tyrese Haliburton had a better offensive peak. It's pretty obvious which one of us has the blindspot.

Oh, and SGA finished the postseason with a -0.5 opponent-adjusted relative TS. I know you don't know this, but peak Kobe was at +4.9 opponent adjusted rTS in the PS. And he was doing that while posting a higher inflation-adjusted scoring rate. Even you aren't foolish enough to place more stock on the RS.

Why are you so emotional about this man?

Ps.. Haliburton comparison is irrelevant

The difference in league environment is exactly why I used RELATIVE TS, and the Haliburton comment wasn't directed at you. I was merely pointing out that other...guy...has had some memorably bad takes. And SGA hasn't proven anything...yet. Maybe you should cool your jets and let him get out of the second round.

[CobraCommander]

More GMs would start their team with SGA over everyone but Wemby in the eyes of current and future upside.

And GMs have him behind only Jokic in mvp race this year....

So individually many say yes....but a ring trumps opinions so no....hail to the champs...Tatum is the best of the young guns cause he did it on the court at the highest level...and won

Does that mean that Billups was ahead of KG in 2004?

Sure - hyperbole and big leaps are cool on RealGM

But you know if the players close like KG and Duncan - the guy with the ring is better right ?

I don’t think chancey was in KG world ever lol

[hugepatsfan]

I think SGA is better than Tatum, but one thing I do feel needs to be brought up is that you have to acknowledge the positions they play. People do this a lot with Tatum where they compare him to other primary offensive scoring options/facilitators without acknowledging that they're guards and he's a PF.

Like sure, Tatum benefits from added offensive help, but let's say you swapped SGA for Tatum. The Celtics would take a huge hit defensively. White/Holiday/Brown are a lot less effective on defense as the SG/SF/PF than they are as PG/SG/SF. All of them are primarily perimeter players. The Celtics also rely on Tatum a lot for rebounding because Porzingis/Horford are weak there. Most likely, that team is going to feel some pressure to swap one of them (presumably White or Holiday) for a bigger forward to balance out the size. And in doing so, that's likely going to be a huge downgrade in secondary ball handling/playmaking/shotmaking just by virtue of going from a guard to a bigger forward and the skill sets typical of those positions.

So I understand that Tatum benefits from extra help compared to many of his peers as #1 options, but it often gets overlooked how much he himself is responsible for that just by nature of him bringing that skill set in a PF body vs. a guard. Like we would never criticize Giannis in a comparison against SGA because he needs more help on the perimeter because he's a PF so of course he does. Well, Tatum is a PF too. He just happens to also have that perimeter scorer/facilitator skill set. It's not the same as a Giannis because he's not that type of traditional defensive presence there, but he's still very much a two-way player. The fact that he's the perimeter player he is in a legit PF body should generate more unicorn discussion than it does and be recognized as an inherent advantage he has over other players in comparisons like this.

Now again, I do think SGA is better but I think it's an overall point that needs to be made with Tatum.

[reload141]

Did SGA pass Tatum in 2023?

"Nope, and I'll tell you why"

*Posts SGA's postseason stats from 4 years before 2023 when he was a rookie and 2nd year player*

They're the same age. They were both rookies and 2nd year players at one point.

The OP asked a question and I gave a pretty clear answer, and also acknowledged that most people don't agree.

With a question like this there's many ways to look at it.

Has Shai surpassed Tatum career wise? No.

Would he beat Tatum one on one? I don't know but I give JT the edge because of size.

Is he more important to his team? Prolly about even imo.

Did he have a more efficient individual offensive RS last year? Yes.

Has he won anything? No.

I mean I don't know what SGA has done to earn his extremely high ranking among NBA fans and analysts. He's awesome though and I look forward to him getting even better.

Stoooop he did not even win FInals or ECF MVP and has multiple all-star caliber teammates

That’s not a legitimate response to Bisme… try again.

[reload141]

Yes. You switch the players in their specific contexts and you'll see Shai winning FMVP last year and the thunder last year not really getting anywhere.

Hypotheticals don’t work in this scenario, SGA was the lesser player as his team didn’t advance.

I love SGA, and want to see his succeed so let’s see if he can surpass Tatum this year and do that.

So the best player in the league is always on the championship team?

Well… if there’s a best player in the league, then surely that player advances to the Finals?

[OkcSinceSGA]

Hypotheticals don’t work in this scenario, SGA was the lesser player as his team didn’t advance.

I love SGA, and want to see his succeed so let’s see if he can surpass Tatum this year and do that.

So the best player in the league is always on the championship team?

Well… if there’s a best player in the league, then surely that player advances to the Finals?

What lol??? Tons of examples of this not happening. Jordan was 27 when he made his first finals. Kobe didn’t do jack the 05+06+07 seasons until Gasol got there. Two beat downs in 1st round and one year missing playoffs. Wade didn’t make the finals . Wade won in year 3 but didn’t make the finals the other 6 seasons he played pre Heatles era… this is a weird criteria.

SGA likely has a 10 year prime still left. Lots of years.

[Myth]

Hypotheticals don’t work in this scenario, SGA was the lesser player as his team didn’t advance.

I love SGA, and want to see his succeed so let’s see if he can surpass Tatum this year and do that.

So the best player in the league is always on the championship team?

Well… if there’s a best player in the league, then surely that player advances to the Finals?

Not when it is a team sport.

[YogurtProducer]

They're the same age. They were both rookies and 2nd year players at one point.

The OP asked a question and I gave a pretty clear answer, and also acknowledged that most people don't agree.

With a question like this there's many ways to look at it.

Has Shai surpassed Tatum career wise? No.

Would he beat Tatum one on one? I don't know but I give JT the edge because of size.

Is he more important to his team? Prolly about even imo.

Did he have a more efficient individual offensive RS last year? Yes.

Has he won anything? No.

I mean I don't know what SGA has done to earn his extremely high ranking among NBA fans and analysts. He's awesome though and I look forward to him getting even better.

Stoooop he did not even win FInals or ECF MVP and has multiple all-star caliber teammates

That’s not a legitimate response to Bisme… try again.

Uhh yes it is.

OKC without SGA might miss the playoffs. Celtics without Tatum are a good team.

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

According to a lot of people, apparently yes.

According to me and numbers and results, no.

Spoiler:

Did SGA pass Tatum in 2023?

"Nope, and I'll tell you why"

*Posts SGA's postseason stats from 4 years before 2023 when he was a rookie and 2nd year player*

They're the same age. They were both rookies and 2nd year players at one point.

The OP asked a question and I gave a pretty clear answer, and also acknowledged that most people don't agree.

With a question like this there's many ways to look at it.

Has Shai surpassed Tatum career wise? No.

Would he beat Tatum one on one? I don't know but I give JT the edge because of size.

Is he more important to his team? Prolly about even imo.

Did he have a more efficient individual offensive RS last year? Yes.

Has he won anything? No.

I mean I don't know what SGA has done to earn his extremely high ranking among NBA fans and analysts. He's awesome though and I look forward to him getting even better.

They are the same age, but instead of comparing their stats from last year, or even the last 2 years, which would make a lot of sense, since, as you pointed out, they're the same age, you instead compared a subset of data from SGA where a majority of the games were played before his age 22 season (57% of his playoff games in your dataset came before 2021) to a subset of data from Tatum where a majority of the games played were after his age 22 season (56% of his playoff games in your dataset came after 2021).

It's as if you were comparing SGA's year 22 season to Tatum's year 24 season, then using that as evidence that Tatum was better at age 25/26. It's nonsensical.

[reload141]

So the best player in the league is always on the championship team?

Well… if there’s a best player in the league, then surely that player advances to the Finals?

What lol??? Tons of examples of this not happening. Jordan was 27 when he made his first finals. Kobe didn’t do jack the 05+06+07 seasons until Gasol got there. Two beat downs in 1st round and one year missing playoffs. Wade didn’t make the finals . Wade won in year 3 but didn’t make the finals the other 6 seasons he played pre Heatles era… this is a weird criteria.

SGA likely has a 10 year prime still left. Lots of years.

Exactly, and he does have the potential to surpass Tatum and will likely do so, he just hasn’t done it yet

[Jaqua92]

People whinging about Bisme’s post while comparing 2 rounds of SGA v 4 rounds of Tatum.

Fact is, the further you go in the playoffs, the worse your stats get. Your competition gets better, you’ve played top level basketball for over a month by the finals. There is always a drop off. Each and every great player has dropped off in the NBA finals.

Just look at Luka as the most recent example.

The same thing will happen when SGA eventually makes the finals. His stat line won’t look as pretty.

Tatum is the better overall player. He’s proven it at all levels.

He hasn’t the last two years.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

OKC is gonna smoke Boston in the playoffs I’ve put that out there over and over early so you guys can bump this later. Tatum wasn’t even the best player on his own team in the finals man. That ends the argument alone probably. SGA is not getting outplayed by any teammates.

OKC got smoked by a lesser talented team. And you seem to think an underachieving team will elevate to an all time great championship team in one season.

Good grief.

[Jaqua92]

Do people forget that Tatum has been the best player on 3 different iterations of Celtic rosters that have made, at least, the conference finals?

But because SGA had one better regular season, and failed to beat a lesser team in the conference finals, he's better?

I mean .. I dare anyone to make an argument that isn't Boston hate and jealousy secretly masquerading as "fact"


Because no one has.

Not a single one of you, and no one objective is being honest if they're suggesting SGA has surpassed it, even if you don't admit it lol.

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[NZB2323]

More GMs would start their team with SGA over everyone but Wemby in the eyes of current and future upside.

And GMs have him behind only Jokic in mvp race this year....

So individually many say yes....but a ring trumps opinions so no....hail to the champs...Tatum is the best of the young guns cause he did it on the court at the highest level...and won

Does that mean that Billups was ahead of KG in 2004?

Sure - hyperbole and big leaps are cool on RealGM

But you know if the players close like KG and Duncan - the guy with the ring is better right ?

I don’t think chancey was in KG world ever lol

Billups won Finals MVP. Tatum didn’t. Tatum also didn’t win ECF MVP. Look at their numbers in the playoffs last year.

SGA: 30, 7, and 6, 58.2 TS%, 25.5 PER
Tatum: 25, 10, and 6, 54.9 TS%, 20.1 PER

[OkcSinceSGA]

People whinging about Bisme’s post while comparing 2 rounds of SGA v 4 rounds of Tatum.

Fact is, the further you go in the playoffs, the worse your stats get. Your competition gets better, you’ve played top level basketball for over a month by the finals. There is always a drop off. Each and every great player has dropped off in the NBA finals.

Just look at Luka as the most recent example.

The same thing will happen when SGA eventually makes the finals. His stat line won’t look as pretty.

Tatum is the better overall player. He’s proven it at all levels.

He hasn’t the last two years.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

OKC is gonna smoke Boston in the playoffs I’ve put that out there over and over early so you guys can bump this later. Tatum wasn’t even the best player on his own team in the finals man. That ends the argument alone probably. SGA is not getting outplayed by any teammates.

OKC got smoked by a lesser talented team. And you seem to think an underachieving team will elevate to an all time great championship team in one season.

Good grief.

And Chet looks MVP caliber, Hartenstein and Caruso are monster pickups, another year of chemistry, Jalen Williams leap most likely.