Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai!

[Scase]

That’s how this board is though. They pick and choose when they want to believe small sample sizes or not based on whether they like a player or not lol. When it was RJ they didn’t believe his sample with Raptors bc it was too small, but when it’s Ochai they believe the Raptors sample even though it too was small lol. It’s pretty much what ever sample paints one of our players to be bad that’s the one people here choose to believe

Ok but this is literally what is happening right now, in this thread, that you are responding to. It's a 3 game sample size lol.

Ochai is playing better than I expected and I hope he keeps it up, but much like RJ there's plenty of evidence prior showing this is not what is to be expected. Let's see these guys do it for a whole season before we start crowning him fixed.

I have been enjoying seeing him in transition, he's looked great there, needs a lot of work in the HC though.

I actually think most people here understand it’s a small sample size and there are people who have even stated the numbers will 100% go down and he won’t stay at 70% true shooting. But you can see tangible improvement in his finishing and driving. Maybe I missed something, but most people are generally being level headed about the improvement we’ve seen so far. All we are saying is we didn’t write him off after the small sample size with Raptors where he mostly played alongside G leaguers to end the season. And his history in terms of stats wasn’t great, but it definitely wasn’t as bad as it was with Raptors. But yes we can agree on the fact that it’s nice to see him playing well and we both hope it continues.

I can't speak for others, but I wasn't basing my opinion on just his stint with the Raps, but rather his body of work with the Jazz and his college numbers, which collectively are hundreds of games. 4 year college players don't typically take big leaps once they hit the NBA, I would be happy if Ochai bucked that trend, but not surprised if he doesn't.

I hope he keeps up the improved play, but people need to relax, his "50%" from 3, is just 3 made shots. His defence looks much the same as last year, which is not a bad thing. As I mentioned before, I'm liking what I've been seeing with him in transition, but I'm not sure if that is just us running more this season vs last. His HC offence is still a mess, but I'm willing to chalk that up to our team being disorganized.

All in all, things look better, but I'm not out here assuming things are fine after 3 games lol.

[ConSarnit]

That’s how this board is though. They pick and choose when they want to believe small sample sizes or not based on whether they like a player or not lol. When it was RJ they didn’t believe his sample with Raptors bc it was too small, but when it’s Ochai they believe the Raptors sample even though it too was small lol. It’s pretty much what ever sample paints one of our players to be bad that’s the one people here choose to believe

I want to remain optimistic but it's crazy how we do this every year. Last year at this time Dick was bust. Haven't heard much about that this year. All of a sudden Ochai and Shead having solved their shooting woes even though they've taken 6 and 8 TOTAL 3pa on the season. Hopefully they can keep it up but man these sample sizes are miniscule.

People on this board definitely live in extremes and speak in absolutes based on what they’re seeing at the moment and that’s both on the positive end and negative end. I agree with that. But I haven’t seen anyone say Ochai is gonna continue to have a 70% true shooting for the season based on 3 games. I think most people praising him understand that won’t continue. But he’s showing that even when that shot doesn’t fall he can affect the game in a positive way. It’s not just the shot. He has looked good since preseason and his shot only really fell last game. That was just the icing on top. He’s cutting extremely well and finishing much better. He’s also driving more and showing more comfort in his handle and playing the usual good defence he always plays. Those things can stick around (efficiency will most likely drop a bit bc he’s barely missed an layup this season yet) even if the shooting comes and goes.

It might be an unpopular opinion but I believe 100% of Agbaji's success in the league will come down to 3pt shooting. Defensive guards who can't shoot or play-make basically have no place in the league. The only recent guards who have really gotten by with questionable shooting are GP2 and Thybulle, and those guys are considered elite defensive guards (both of whom I would have above Agbaji defensively). Who is an A (not A+) level defensive, non-shooting, off-ball guard who gets real rotation minutes in the league?

[youngRAPZ]

I want to remain optimistic but it's crazy how we do this every year. Last year at this time Dick was bust. Haven't heard much about that this year. All of a sudden Ochai and Shead having solved their shooting woes even though they've taken 6 and 8 TOTAL 3pa on the season. Hopefully they can keep it up but man these sample sizes are miniscule.

People on this board definitely live in extremes and speak in absolutes based on what they’re seeing at the moment and that’s both on the positive end and negative end. I agree with that. But I haven’t seen anyone say Ochai is gonna continue to have a 70% true shooting for the season based on 3 games. I think most people praising him understand that won’t continue. But he’s showing that even when that shot doesn’t fall he can affect the game in a positive way. It’s not just the shot. He has looked good since preseason and his shot only really fell last game. That was just the icing on top. He’s cutting extremely well and finishing much better. He’s also driving more and showing more comfort in his handle and playing the usual good defence he always plays. Those things can stick around (efficiency will most likely drop a bit bc he’s barely missed an layup this season yet) even if the shooting comes and goes.

It might be an unpopular opinion but I believe 100% of Agbaji's success in the league will come down to 3pt shooting. Defensive guards who can't shoot or play-make basically have no place in the league. The only recent guards who have really gotten by with questionable shooting are GP2 and Thybulle, and those guys are considered elite defensive guards (both of whom I would have above Agbaji defensively). Who is an A (not A+) level defensive, non-shooting, off-ball guard who gets real rotation minutes in the league?

I’d argue ochai is already better than both at shooting.

[ConSarnit]

People on this board definitely live in extremes and speak in absolutes based on what they’re seeing at the moment and that’s both on the positive end and negative end. I agree with that. But I haven’t seen anyone say Ochai is gonna continue to have a 70% true shooting for the season based on 3 games. I think most people praising him understand that won’t continue. But he’s showing that even when that shot doesn’t fall he can affect the game in a positive way. It’s not just the shot. He has looked good since preseason and his shot only really fell last game. That was just the icing on top. He’s cutting extremely well and finishing much better. He’s also driving more and showing more comfort in his handle and playing the usual good defence he always plays. Those things can stick around (efficiency will most likely drop a bit bc he’s barely missed an layup this season yet) even if the shooting comes and goes.

It might be an unpopular opinion but I believe 100% of Agbaji's success in the league will come down to 3pt shooting. Defensive guards who can't shoot or play-make basically have no place in the league. The only recent guards who have really gotten by with questionable shooting are GP2 and Thybulle, and those guys are considered elite defensive guards (both of whom I would have above Agbaji defensively). Who is an A (not A+) level defensive, non-shooting, off-ball guard who gets real rotation minutes in the league?

I’d argue ochai is already better than both at shooting.

I agree with that but the volume and fg% still matters. If he's Ochai is shooting 33% on low volume that type of player is not really valued. The only guy who plays regular minutes who fits in Agbaji's profile (zero playmaking, low 3pt volume defensive guard) is Terrance Mann. Mann has also shown some versatility in that he can make ATB 3's, which is a more valuable skill. I would consider non-shooting guard the hardest position to "make it" as a real rotation player. If you are a non-shooting, non-playmaking guard teams are not interested. You have to be absolutely elite defensively to have any shot and even then you probably exist as a closer to end of rotation guy.

[DreamTeam09]

You don't have to be a marksman to have value in this league, like it or not, not everyone in the NBA will be a league avg 3pt shooters. Some will be above avg, some will be below avg. Ochai just has to be confident enough to continue to take them, some will go in, most will not.
It's the other things he has to continue doing, but he has BBIQ so he'll be okay. Finishing is the important part and he has been doing that. If the 3 falls at a respectable clip then he becomes our PJ Tucker Lou Dort Aaron Naismith with maybe even a little more pop

[DreamTeam09]

I just don't like the rehtoric that some of y'all have, like you have to do this, if not, you're not wanted. I mean that's definitely not always the case at all

[Scase]

That’s how this board is though. They pick and choose when they want to believe small sample sizes or not based on whether they like a player or not lol. When it was RJ they didn’t believe his sample with Raptors bc it was too small, but when it’s Ochai they believe the Raptors sample even though it too was small lol. It’s pretty much what ever sample paints one of our players to be bad that’s the one people here choose to believe

Ok but this is literally what is happening right now, in this thread, that you are responding to. It's a 3 game sample size lol.

Ochai is playing better than I expected and I hope he keeps it up, but much like RJ there's plenty of evidence prior showing this is not what is to be expected. Let's see these guys do it for a whole season before we start crowning him fixed.

I have been enjoying seeing him in transition, he's looked great there, needs a lot of work in the HC though.

It's not though. Agbaji hit nearly 40% of his threes in his last two college seasons (on 6.2 attempts per game to boot) then shot the three at a ~36% rate in his first NBA season while he was touted as a good defender. He continued to hit threes at a solid rate through the first few months last season (40/108 or 37% up to December 31st) before he fell off a cliff the rest of the season (22/103 or 21% in 2024). Aside from a four-month stretch where the majority of those attempts and minutes on the court came with him playing a role he wasn't suitable for, he had been a pretty solid three-point shooter for 3+ years. His three-point shooting was trending up every year in college (~3% increase year over year) and he carried that over into his first ~100 NBA games where he hit ~36% on respectable volume (~6 attempts per36).

He's not an elite or even great shooter by any means, but he's a pretty good fit with our starters (Scottie, IQ, RJ and Poeltl) and it shouldn't come as a big surprise if he ends up starting games over Gradey when we're healthy. You might not agree with it (and I'm on the fence about the possibility because Gradey has a much higher ceiling offensively), but there are going to be a lot of minutes and opportunities for both of them regardless.

You are right, but lacking context. Ochai in the NBA has shot the 3 at an above average rate from a single place on the court, one corner, that's all. That doesn't mean he is a good shooter, it means he is extremely limited from where he can be a good shooter. I cannot find any website (that doesnt change 50$/mo) that shows college shot charts for him, so I can't say with certainty that it was the same case there, but 2 things to take into account regarding that. 1) it's very likely that he had the same shot diet, and 2) the 3pt line is closer in college.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't be a good shooter in the NBA, but it also doesn't mean he can. You can't just look at a raw number and make a decision, you need to get into the details of it. The other spots on the court, he shoots either average, or WELL below league average, I have touched on this previously and people like to ignore it.

From the right corner, 45.5% vs 38.8% league average.
Above the break right side, 27.7% vs 35.9% league average.
Above the break center, 21.7% vs 35.1% league average.
Above the break left side, 25% vs3 5.7% league average.
From the left corner, 38.2% vs 38.5% league average.

1/5 spots being above average is not a good fit with this team, unless Darkos offence can accommodate that. But considering his focus on movement offence and everything being shifted constantly, I don't see how. But I'm ok with him being average in the other corner. Ochai has taken 445 3's in the NBA, generally speaking that's a solid enough sample size to make predictions from. I don't think he's a 30% 3pt shooter, but I also don't think he's a 38% shooter either.

He's not as bad as he was last year with the raps, but that doesn't mean he's good enough either. He's likely a stop gap for this team and I'm fine with that for now. I'm not saying anything wildly controversial here, he's a 4 year college player, he should be doing better, that's why teams draft 4 year college players. Lower ceiling, higher floor, we haven't seen that yet, and neither did Ainge.

[pingpongrac]

I want to remain optimistic but it's crazy how we do this every year. Last year at this time Dick was bust. Haven't heard much about that this year. All of a sudden Ochai and Shead having solved their shooting woes even though they've taken 6 and 8 TOTAL 3pa on the season. Hopefully they can keep it up but man these sample sizes are miniscule.

People on this board definitely live in extremes and speak in absolutes based on what they’re seeing at the moment and that’s both on the positive end and negative end. I agree with that. But I haven’t seen anyone say Ochai is gonna continue to have a 70% true shooting for the season based on 3 games. I think most people praising him understand that won’t continue. But he’s showing that even when that shot doesn’t fall he can affect the game in a positive way. It’s not just the shot. He has looked good since preseason and his shot only really fell last game. That was just the icing on top. He’s cutting extremely well and finishing much better. He’s also driving more and showing more comfort in his handle and playing the usual good defence he always plays. Those things can stick around (efficiency will most likely drop a bit bc he’s barely missed an layup this season yet) even if the shooting comes and goes.

It might be an unpopular opinion but I believe 100% of Agbaji's success in the league will come down to 3pt shooting. Defensive guards who can't shoot or play-make basically have no place in the league. The only recent guards who have really gotten by with questionable shooting are GP2 and Thybulle, and those guys are considered elite defensive guards (both of whom I would have above Agbaji defensively). Who is an A (not A+) level defensive, non-shooting, off-ball guard who gets real rotation minutes in the league?

I think someone else said it, but Agbaji is similar to Okoro in a lot of ways. They have very similar measurements and athletic profiles (~6'5" and 220 pounds with ~6'10" wingspans, above average quickness and explosiveness, etc.), counting stats (11/4/2 with 1.6 STL+BLK per36 for Okoro VS Agbaji 12/4/2 with 1.6 STL+BLK per36 for Agbaji) and advanced stats (REB%, AST%, TOV%, STL% and BLK% all within 1.5% while they're both very low usage players as well). They shoot the three ball at a similar percentage too (35% for Okoro and 33% for Agbaji) – though Okoro shoots less frequently (3.5 3FGA per36 and .414 3PAr VS 5.5 3FGA per36 and .529 3PAr) – and they both prefer the corners (38% from Okoro and 42% from Agbaji).

The main difference is Okoro has spent 3/4 of his career on a playoff team while Agbaji has spent 1/2 of his career on teams that were blatantly tanking (Utah in the second half of 22/23 and Toronto in the second half of 23/24). When Agbaji has been in the proper role (coming off the bench and/or a 4th/5th option), he's had success – which is similar to Okoro, who has been a staple in the Cavs rotation since 21/22 but tends to struggle when given more offensive responsibility.

[GLF]

Ok but this is literally what is happening right now, in this thread, that you are responding to. It's a 3 game sample size lol.

Ochai is playing better than I expected and I hope he keeps it up, but much like RJ there's plenty of evidence prior showing this is not what is to be expected. Let's see these guys do it for a whole season before we start crowning him fixed.

I have been enjoying seeing him in transition, he's looked great there, needs a lot of work in the HC though.

It's not though. Agbaji hit nearly 40% of his threes in his last two college seasons (on 6.2 attempts per game to boot) then shot the three at a ~36% rate in his first NBA season while he was touted as a good defender. He continued to hit threes at a solid rate through the first few months last season (40/108 or 37% up to December 31st) before he fell off a cliff the rest of the season (22/103 or 21% in 2024). Aside from a four-month stretch where the majority of those attempts and minutes on the court came with him playing a role he wasn't suitable for, he had been a pretty solid three-point shooter for 3+ years. His three-point shooting was trending up every year in college (~3% increase year over year) and he carried that over into his first ~100 NBA games where he hit ~36% on respectable volume (~6 attempts per36).

He's not an elite or even great shooter by any means, but he's a pretty good fit with our starters (Scottie, IQ, RJ and Poeltl) and it shouldn't come as a big surprise if he ends up starting games over Gradey when we're healthy. You might not agree with it (and I'm on the fence about the possibility because Gradey has a much higher ceiling offensively), but there are going to be a lot of minutes and opportunities for both of them regardless.

You are right, but lacking context. Ochai in the NBA has shot the 3 at an above average rate from a single place on the court, one corner, that's all. That doesn't mean he is a good shooter, it means he is extremely limited from where he can be a good shooter. I cannot find any website (that doesnt change 50$/mo) that shows college shot charts for him, so I can't say with certainty that it was the same case there, but 2 things to take into account regarding that. 1) it's very likely that he had the same shot diet, and 2) the 3pt line is closer in college.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't be a good shooter in the NBA, but it also doesn't mean he can. You can't just look at a raw number and make a decision, you need to get into the details of it. The other spots on the court, he shoots either average, or WELL below league average, I have touched on this previously and people like to ignore it.

From the right corner, 45.5% vs 38.8% league average.
Above the break right side, 27.7% vs 35.9% league average.
Above the break center, 21.7% vs 35.1% league average.
Above the break left side, 25% vs3 5.7% league average.
From the left corner, 38.2% vs 38.5% league average.

1/5 spots being above average is not a good fit with this team, unless Darkos offence can accommodate that. But considering his focus on movement offence and everything being shifted constantly, I don't see how. But I'm ok with him being average in the other corner. Ochai has taken 445 3's in the NBA, generally speaking that's a solid enough sample size to make predictions from. I don't think he's a 30% 3pt shooter, but I also don't think he's a 38% shooter either.

He's not as bad as he was last year with the raps, but that doesn't mean he's good enough either. He's likely a stop gap for this team and I'm fine with that for now. I'm not saying anything wildly controversial here, he's a 4 year college player, he should be doing better, that's why teams draft 4 year college players. Lower ceiling, higher floor, we haven't seen that yet, and neither did Ainge.

But unless I’m reading this incorrectly it means he’s good from the corners. Once we are healthy I don’t see why we wouldn’t for the most part have the ability to keep him relegated to the corners. Both IQ and now Gradey can shoot from the other areas. If he can hit the corner 3 well, cut and finish the way he has and play good defence that’s an NBA level bench rotation player in my humble opinion.

[YogurtProducer]

It's not though. Agbaji hit nearly 40% of his threes in his last two college seasons (on 6.2 attempts per game to boot) then shot the three at a ~36% rate in his first NBA season while he was touted as a good defender. He continued to hit threes at a solid rate through the first few months last season (40/108 or 37% up to December 31st) before he fell off a cliff the rest of the season (22/103 or 21% in 2024). Aside from a four-month stretch where the majority of those attempts and minutes on the court came with him playing a role he wasn't suitable for, he had been a pretty solid three-point shooter for 3+ years. His three-point shooting was trending up every year in college (~3% increase year over year) and he carried that over into his first ~100 NBA games where he hit ~36% on respectable volume (~6 attempts per36).

He's not an elite or even great shooter by any means, but he's a pretty good fit with our starters (Scottie, IQ, RJ and Poeltl) and it shouldn't come as a big surprise if he ends up starting games over Gradey when we're healthy. You might not agree with it (and I'm on the fence about the possibility because Gradey has a much higher ceiling offensively), but there are going to be a lot of minutes and opportunities for both of them regardless.

You are right, but lacking context. Ochai in the NBA has shot the 3 at an above average rate from a single place on the court, one corner, that's all. That doesn't mean he is a good shooter, it means he is extremely limited from where he can be a good shooter. I cannot find any website (that doesnt change 50$/mo) that shows college shot charts for him, so I can't say with certainty that it was the same case there, but 2 things to take into account regarding that. 1) it's very likely that he had the same shot diet, and 2) the 3pt line is closer in college.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't be a good shooter in the NBA, but it also doesn't mean he can. You can't just look at a raw number and make a decision, you need to get into the details of it. The other spots on the court, he shoots either average, or WELL below league average, I have touched on this previously and people like to ignore it.

From the right corner, 45.5% vs 38.8% league average.
Above the break right side, 27.7% vs 35.9% league average.
Above the break center, 21.7% vs 35.1% league average.
Above the break left side, 25% vs3 5.7% league average.
From the left corner, 38.2% vs 38.5% league average.

1/5 spots being above average is not a good fit with this team, unless Darkos offence can accommodate that. But considering his focus on movement offence and everything being shifted constantly, I don't see how. But I'm ok with him being average in the other corner. Ochai has taken 445 3's in the NBA, generally speaking that's a solid enough sample size to make predictions from. I don't think he's a 30% 3pt shooter, but I also don't think he's a 38% shooter either.

He's not as bad as he was last year with the raps, but that doesn't mean he's good enough either. He's likely a stop gap for this team and I'm fine with that for now. I'm not saying anything wildly controversial here, he's a 4 year college player, he should be doing better, that's why teams draft 4 year college players. Lower ceiling, higher floor, we haven't seen that yet, and neither did Ainge.

But unless I’m reading this incorrectly it means he’s good from the corners. Once we are healthy I don’t see why we wouldn’t for the most part have the ability to keep him relegated to the corners. Both IQ and now Gradey can shoot from the other areas. If he can hit the corner 3 well, cut and finish the way he has and play good defence that’s an NBA level bench rotation player in my humble opinion.

His analysis completely ignores that "league average %" is skewed by elite shooters who shoot a lot.

The league average shooting % =/= who is a league average shooter. %'s are GREATLY skewed by the fact that Curry shot 876 3's at 40.8%, Doncic's 744 at 38.2%, Donte's 705 at 40.1%, etc. Those guys influence the league average shooting % a hell of a lot more than say, Siakams 246 3's at 34.6%.

Fun fact - league average last year was 36.6%. Only 100 qualifying players shot over that % for the entire season. It is quite a high bar people use casually as "league average".

A league average shooter is closer to 33%, not 37%.

[Scase]

It's not though. Agbaji hit nearly 40% of his threes in his last two college seasons (on 6.2 attempts per game to boot) then shot the three at a ~36% rate in his first NBA season while he was touted as a good defender. He continued to hit threes at a solid rate through the first few months last season (40/108 or 37% up to December 31st) before he fell off a cliff the rest of the season (22/103 or 21% in 2024). Aside from a four-month stretch where the majority of those attempts and minutes on the court came with him playing a role he wasn't suitable for, he had been a pretty solid three-point shooter for 3+ years. His three-point shooting was trending up every year in college (~3% increase year over year) and he carried that over into his first ~100 NBA games where he hit ~36% on respectable volume (~6 attempts per36).

He's not an elite or even great shooter by any means, but he's a pretty good fit with our starters (Scottie, IQ, RJ and Poeltl) and it shouldn't come as a big surprise if he ends up starting games over Gradey when we're healthy. You might not agree with it (and I'm on the fence about the possibility because Gradey has a much higher ceiling offensively), but there are going to be a lot of minutes and opportunities for both of them regardless.

You are right, but lacking context. Ochai in the NBA has shot the 3 at an above average rate from a single place on the court, one corner, that's all. That doesn't mean he is a good shooter, it means he is extremely limited from where he can be a good shooter. I cannot find any website (that doesnt change 50$/mo) that shows college shot charts for him, so I can't say with certainty that it was the same case there, but 2 things to take into account regarding that. 1) it's very likely that he had the same shot diet, and 2) the 3pt line is closer in college.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't be a good shooter in the NBA, but it also doesn't mean he can. You can't just look at a raw number and make a decision, you need to get into the details of it. The other spots on the court, he shoots either average, or WELL below league average, I have touched on this previously and people like to ignore it.

From the right corner, 45.5% vs 38.8% league average.
Above the break right side, 27.7% vs 35.9% league average.
Above the break center, 21.7% vs 35.1% league average.
Above the break left side, 25% vs3 5.7% league average.
From the left corner, 38.2% vs 38.5% league average.

1/5 spots being above average is not a good fit with this team, unless Darkos offence can accommodate that. But considering his focus on movement offence and everything being shifted constantly, I don't see how. But I'm ok with him being average in the other corner. Ochai has taken 445 3's in the NBA, generally speaking that's a solid enough sample size to make predictions from. I don't think he's a 30% 3pt shooter, but I also don't think he's a 38% shooter either.

He's not as bad as he was last year with the raps, but that doesn't mean he's good enough either. He's likely a stop gap for this team and I'm fine with that for now. I'm not saying anything wildly controversial here, he's a 4 year college player, he should be doing better, that's why teams draft 4 year college players. Lower ceiling, higher floor, we haven't seen that yet, and neither did Ainge.

But unless I’m reading this incorrectly it means he’s good from the corners. Once we are healthy I don’t see why we wouldn’t for the most part have the ability to keep him relegated to the corners. Both IQ and now Gradey can shoot from the other areas. If he can hit the corner 3 well, cut and finish the way he has and play good defence that’s an NBA level bench rotation player in my humble opinion.

I think it all depends on your definition of good, and whether or not the sample size is truly enough to judge it on. 199 total 3pa from the corners isn't insignificant by any means, but it's also not a lot either. And him being smack dab average with the league, personally I reserve the word good for higher than average. So by my definition, he's good from a single place on the court, I'm more than willing to say he's actually very good from that spot, but the other is just average and that's not enough from a 3+D player.

If we can keep him parked in the corners I won't lose too much sleep. I just don't think having a guy stationary and parked in a corner is good for our offence. And our offence is already not very good looking, when guys are cutting and moving it doesn't look half bad, but the possessions when there isn't much movement, man it looks horrendous. And I know we're missing IQ/RJ, but that doesn't change the fact that this is not a team that will do well without action.

Ochai has been looking better cutting to the basket so I have some optimism there, but overall we need a lot more movement. I'm not as low on him as I was last season, but it's gonna take a lot more than a couple games for me to have higher expectations.

Both him and RJ shoot well from the same corner, so that limits their pairing a little bit, and I don't know what our SL looks like when RJ is back either. I don't like the idea of Gradey being stuck primarily with the second unit, as I think he needs more reps with the starters, and he has a significantly higher ceiling than Ochai. So that would put Ochai on the bench, which is already devoid of offence as is.

It's just a bit of a **** sandwhich, we just have to decide if we want it on rye, or pumpernickel lol. I'll be happy if he can be a reliable corner threat and keeps up the defensive level he's shown thus far. But he needs a shock collar for every time he looks at an above the break 3

[Dalek]

I am pleasantly surprised on Ochai on his overall development.

I think an underrated factor is the Kansas connection with Gradey Dick. They worked out in Kansas over the summer and did event there and I think that has created a connection for him. Just being with a great shooter will help him get better.

The defense is something that I will watch, but just because Ochai is getting to the rim a bit better and shooting 50% from three, it doesn't mean he is bringing value. Value for him is about his defense. If he can be a stopper, especially against bigger offensive players, that is huge value.

Lastly, I think Ochai should start with the starting group when everyone is back. I love Gradey's amazing shooting displays but RJ and IQ more than cover for him. Gradey is the guy offenses target every possession. It has gotten worse this season. Ochai is a better complimentary piece but if wins and losses don't matter then they may keep Gradey as a starter.

[YogurtProducer]

You are right, but lacking context. Ochai in the NBA has shot the 3 at an above average rate from a single place on the court, one corner, that's all. That doesn't mean he is a good shooter, it means he is extremely limited from where he can be a good shooter. I cannot find any website (that doesnt change 50$/mo) that shows college shot charts for him, so I can't say with certainty that it was the same case there, but 2 things to take into account regarding that. 1) it's very likely that he had the same shot diet, and 2) the 3pt line is closer in college.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't be a good shooter in the NBA, but it also doesn't mean he can. You can't just look at a raw number and make a decision, you need to get into the details of it. The other spots on the court, he shoots either average, or WELL below league average, I have touched on this previously and people like to ignore it.

From the right corner, 45.5% vs 38.8% league average.
Above the break right side, 27.7% vs 35.9% league average.
Above the break center, 21.7% vs 35.1% league average.
Above the break left side, 25% vs3 5.7% league average.
From the left corner, 38.2% vs 38.5% league average.

1/5 spots being above average is not a good fit with this team, unless Darkos offence can accommodate that. But considering his focus on movement offence and everything being shifted constantly, I don't see how. But I'm ok with him being average in the other corner. Ochai has taken 445 3's in the NBA, generally speaking that's a solid enough sample size to make predictions from. I don't think he's a 30% 3pt shooter, but I also don't think he's a 38% shooter either.

He's not as bad as he was last year with the raps, but that doesn't mean he's good enough either. He's likely a stop gap for this team and I'm fine with that for now. I'm not saying anything wildly controversial here, he's a 4 year college player, he should be doing better, that's why teams draft 4 year college players. Lower ceiling, higher floor, we haven't seen that yet, and neither did Ainge.

But unless I’m reading this incorrectly it means he’s good from the corners. Once we are healthy I don’t see why we wouldn’t for the most part have the ability to keep him relegated to the corners. Both IQ and now Gradey can shoot from the other areas. If he can hit the corner 3 well, cut and finish the way he has and play good defence that’s an NBA level bench rotation player in my humble opinion.

I think it all depends on your definition of good, and whether or not the sample size is truly enough to judge it on. 199 total 3pa from the corners isn't insignificant by any means, but it's also not a lot either. And him being smack dab average with the league, personally I reserve the word good for higher than average. So by my definition, he's good from a single place on the court, I'm more than willing to say he's actually very good from that spot, but the other is just average and that's not enough from a 3+D player.

If we can keep him parked in the corners I won't lose too much sleep. I just don't think having a guy stationary and parked in a corner is good for our offence. And our offence is already not very good looking, when guys are cutting and moving it doesn't look half bad, but the possessions when there isn't much movement, man it looks horrendous. And I know we're missing IQ/RJ, but that doesn't change the fact that this is not a team that will do well without action.

Ochai has been looking better cutting to the basket so I have some optimism there, but overall we need a lot more movement. I'm not as low on him as I was last season, but it's gonna take a lot more than a couple games for me to have higher expectations.

Both him and RJ shoot well from the same corner, so that limits their pairing a little bit, and I don't know what our SL looks like when RJ is back either. I don't like the idea of Gradey being stuck primarily with the second unit, as I think he needs more reps with the starters, and he has a significantly higher ceiling than Ochai. So that would put Ochai on the bench, which is already devoid of offence as is.

It's just a bit of a **** sandwhich, we just have to decide if we want it on rye, or pumpernickel lol. I'll be happy if he can be a reliable corner threat and keeps up the defensive level he's shown thus far. But he needs a shock collar for every time he looks at an above the break 3

In one post you talk of small sample, and then in the same post state Ochai is only good from 1 corner despite being a 38% from one and 45% from the other and dont even realize you are speaking on 110 and 89 shot samples.

Can you just for one post be subjective and not cherry pick as you see fit?

And why even bring up RJ Barrett? He took a total of 91 corner 3's all of last year. I don't think you need to concern yourself on his "good corner" when we are talking about such a low rate of shots. Why not bring up Dick who shoots 50% from the opposite corner of Ochai?

[GLF]

You are right, but lacking context. Ochai in the NBA has shot the 3 at an above average rate from a single place on the court, one corner, that's all. That doesn't mean he is a good shooter, it means he is extremely limited from where he can be a good shooter. I cannot find any website (that doesnt change 50$/mo) that shows college shot charts for him, so I can't say with certainty that it was the same case there, but 2 things to take into account regarding that. 1) it's very likely that he had the same shot diet, and 2) the 3pt line is closer in college.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't be a good shooter in the NBA, but it also doesn't mean he can. You can't just look at a raw number and make a decision, you need to get into the details of it. The other spots on the court, he shoots either average, or WELL below league average, I have touched on this previously and people like to ignore it.

From the right corner, 45.5% vs 38.8% league average.
Above the break right side, 27.7% vs 35.9% league average.
Above the break center, 21.7% vs 35.1% league average.
Above the break left side, 25% vs3 5.7% league average.
From the left corner, 38.2% vs 38.5% league average.

1/5 spots being above average is not a good fit with this team, unless Darkos offence can accommodate that. But considering his focus on movement offence and everything being shifted constantly, I don't see how. But I'm ok with him being average in the other corner. Ochai has taken 445 3's in the NBA, generally speaking that's a solid enough sample size to make predictions from. I don't think he's a 30% 3pt shooter, but I also don't think he's a 38% shooter either.

He's not as bad as he was last year with the raps, but that doesn't mean he's good enough either. He's likely a stop gap for this team and I'm fine with that for now. I'm not saying anything wildly controversial here, he's a 4 year college player, he should be doing better, that's why teams draft 4 year college players. Lower ceiling, higher floor, we haven't seen that yet, and neither did Ainge.

But unless I’m reading this incorrectly it means he’s good from the corners. Once we are healthy I don’t see why we wouldn’t for the most part have the ability to keep him relegated to the corners. Both IQ and now Gradey can shoot from the other areas. If he can hit the corner 3 well, cut and finish the way he has and play good defence that’s an NBA level bench rotation player in my humble opinion.

I think it all depends on your definition of good, and whether or not the sample size is truly enough to judge it on. 199 total 3pa from the corners isn't insignificant by any means, but it's also not a lot either. And him being smack dab average with the league, personally I reserve the word good for higher than average. So by my definition, he's good from a single place on the court, I'm more than willing to say he's actually very good from that spot, but the other is just average and that's not enough from a 3+D player.

If we can keep him parked in the corners I won't lose too much sleep. I just don't think having a guy stationary and parked in a corner is good for our offence. And our offence is already not very good looking, when guys are cutting and moving it doesn't look half bad, but the possessions when there isn't much movement, man it looks horrendous. And I know we're missing IQ/RJ, but that doesn't change the fact that this is not a team that will do well without action.

Ochai has been looking better cutting to the basket so I have some optimism there, but overall we need a lot more movement. I'm not as low on him as I was last season, but it's gonna take a lot more than a couple games for me to have higher expectations.

Both him and RJ shoot well from the same corner, so that limits their pairing a little bit, and I don't know what our SL looks like when RJ is back either. I don't like the idea of Gradey being stuck primarily with the second unit, as I think he needs more reps with the starters, and he has a significantly higher ceiling than Ochai. So that would put Ochai on the bench, which is already devoid of offence as is.

It's just a bit of a **** sandwhich, we just have to decide if we want it on rye, or pumpernickel lol. I'll be happy if he can be a reliable corner threat and keeps up the defensive level he's shown thus far. But he needs a shock collar for every time he looks at an above the break 3

LOL not a shock collar ahahaha. Yea I would say he’s an average 3 point shooter from the corner and we definitely need more sample size to see if that holds. But I think as a bench player, being average from one corner and above average from another, while cutting well, finishing well and playing good defence is good enough. I would love to see him become an above average 3 point shooter overall but I think what he’s shown is good enough for a bench level player. For a starter no and I 100% want Gradey starting over him, I don’t care how bad Gradey is defensively lol.

[Scase]

But unless I’m reading this incorrectly it means he’s good from the corners. Once we are healthy I don’t see why we wouldn’t for the most part have the ability to keep him relegated to the corners. Both IQ and now Gradey can shoot from the other areas. If he can hit the corner 3 well, cut and finish the way he has and play good defence that’s an NBA level bench rotation player in my humble opinion.

I think it all depends on your definition of good, and whether or not the sample size is truly enough to judge it on. 199 total 3pa from the corners isn't insignificant by any means, but it's also not a lot either. And him being smack dab average with the league, personally I reserve the word good for higher than average. So by my definition, he's good from a single place on the court, I'm more than willing to say he's actually very good from that spot, but the other is just average and that's not enough from a 3+D player.

If we can keep him parked in the corners I won't lose too much sleep. I just don't think having a guy stationary and parked in a corner is good for our offence. And our offence is already not very good looking, when guys are cutting and moving it doesn't look half bad, but the possessions when there isn't much movement, man it looks horrendous. And I know we're missing IQ/RJ, but that doesn't change the fact that this is not a team that will do well without action.

Ochai has been looking better cutting to the basket so I have some optimism there, but overall we need a lot more movement. I'm not as low on him as I was last season, but it's gonna take a lot more than a couple games for me to have higher expectations.

Both him and RJ shoot well from the same corner, so that limits their pairing a little bit, and I don't know what our SL looks like when RJ is back either. I don't like the idea of Gradey being stuck primarily with the second unit, as I think he needs more reps with the starters, and he has a significantly higher ceiling than Ochai. So that would put Ochai on the bench, which is already devoid of offence as is.

It's just a bit of a **** sandwhich, we just have to decide if we want it on rye, or pumpernickel lol. I'll be happy if he can be a reliable corner threat and keeps up the defensive level he's shown thus far. But he needs a shock collar for every time he looks at an above the break 3

LOL not a shock collar ahahaha. Yea I would say he’s an average 3 point shooter from the corner and we definitely need more sample size to see if that holds. But I think as a bench player, being average from one corner and above average from another, while cutting well, finishing well and playing good defence is good enough. I would love to see him become an above average 3 point shooter overall but I think what he’s shown is good enough for a bench level player. For a starter no and I 100% want Gradey starting over him, I don’t care how bad Gradey is defensively lol.

If he can turn out to be a good corner 3pt shooter as you mentioned, on like 4ish 3pa/g with his current level of defence, and improved cutting. I will be happy with him as a solid bench piece, I have nothing against these guys that I don't think are particularly good, I just don't want to see development time and resources spent on them, when there are better options available.

Since we are pretty thin in the talent area, have at er. But being slotted over say someone like Gradey? Nah **** him to DET before that happens lol.

[YogurtProducer]

2/5 from 3 tonight, both from the right corner I believe. Above the arc still gross

[LoveMyRaps]

Wish there was a tag/call out posters on this thread.

[ItsDanger]

Agbaji looking solid so far.

[mtcan]

I think he's worth more than the 29th pick.

[bballsparkin]

Some of you went pretty hard at him. That play he curled for the pull up mid range shot was nice. Had me believing for a moment.

edit: the shot never quite went in but it was close!