Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league

[tsherkin]

Yeah but again, Kawhi was also gift wrapped a lot of open 3's in a great system and was pretty low volume. Who knows what it would have looked like if he was asked to do all that Scottie has been asked from day 1.

Probably worse, but the actual shooting ability was already there. Adjusting to volume is a thing. It even happened to Lebron and to KD, for sure.

I wouldn't say Scottie is a couple years behind Kawhi at all.

Kawhi certainly had a gentle introduction to the role, but he was showing signs far earlier and the foundations of his shot are considerably better than anything we've seen from Scottie, who has dubious touch at best outside of 10 feet and has for years now, where Kawhi was showing it far earlier, even in his lower-usage aspects.

Kawhi was a 1a/b/c/d in a split between him, Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. Imagine what Scottie could have done there.

Missed a bunch of jumpers, I imagine. Scottie isn't good from the corner, and the assisted proportion of his 3pt volume is quite good. He just doesn't have the touch. And he didn't show it even when he was taking a pretty chill 12-13 FGA/g. The degree of defensive coverage isn't what holds Scottie back.

and FWIW - I don't ever foresee Scottie being an elite scoring #1 guy. BUT lets assume he does, he is not going to do it like Kawhi does it anyways. He is going to be closer to a Giannis, or a Butler, in that they are really really good in every other area but still need a guard beside them to take some pressure off more than a guy like Kawhi does.

Yes, aesthetically and mechanically, he would be a different kind of scorer. He won't be leveraging a strong first step or a good jumper. He would have to center around his strength to a far greater degree, that's true. But that's somewhat moot. You need some kind of elite trait to be an elite scorer, and Scottie doesn't possess any.

Don't mistake me; I believe that Barnes has the potential to be better than a below-average-efficiency scorer. He's got size, he's got touch on his short shots. He's got some semblance of a post game. He flashed the 3 last season, at least. There are some tools which would help him look better if he had a real first option drawing attention. I'm plenty happy to have him on the team for a host of reasons. But I can't see the first reason why he could turn into an elite #1. That's all.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Kawhi was like famously living in the gym early in his career, practicing moves that Pop said if he tried them in games he would get benched. He corrected his form with Chip before his rookie season. And of course his handle was always there in college.

With Scottie you never really hear that he puts in the psycho hours that a lot of these greats are known for. Even as late as last season when he had his breakout into an all-star, Siakam was still known as the hardest working Raptor. What Scottie is really good at is scoring in a variety of ways, and it makes me think he's just honed his craft in games, playing a lot of pick-up over the years. Nothing looks smooth or refined, but he has touch, and he has loads of creativity. If someone locks him in a gym over the summer emphasizing his ballhandling he's going to make a leap. If he just sort of works on iso scoring because that's what his pay grade tells him he needs to do, then I think he probably won't get to superstar. His game is just way more threatening going north-south, because of his ability to see the floor.

[tsherkin]

What Scottie is really good at is scoring in a variety of ways,

Which, honestly, is a little worrisome to me. Versatility is a trap if you don't have something you can lean on. That smacks of Melo, although obviously if Scottie was ever as good as Melo, I'd be thrilled. Melo was more "not elite" than he was "not a good choice as first option." He also worked really well off of a proper PG, and as a small-ball 4. HIs greatest sin was that he was a little overrated because people called him an ATG scorer when he was really more of a tier-2 guy, but even that was pretty awesome for Denver and, briefly, for New York as well.

But, Scottie is still young. There are some things he can do. Legit ball-handling improvement isn't that common, but it isn't impossible. Developing a shot, not impossible. We'll have to see. It's terribly unlikely, but that isn't a 0% chance. It'd be dope if he tightened up his handle, found an elbow/nail jumper and maybe a little more efficacy from his post game. Generally speaking, we tend to see the signs of a really dangerous scorer pretty early. The raw guys who come in and succeed typically have elite athleticism and then maybe develop a jumper later. Guys with the instincts and the tools usually show it by their second or third season. "Usually, typically," again, none of that is absolute. But I think it's pretty clear that Scottie isn't following the most common career arc for a guy who develops into a dangerous scorer. He's looking more like a Demar or a Kemba Walker or something like that, optimistically. And that's really the source of my pessimism around him, coupled to his lack of elite anything.

If he can get his 3 back, then in tandem with his ability to pass, he's got a long career ahead of him, but funneling loads of scoring possessions to him doesn't spark joy. The season is long, though, and he did end the last one with an injury, so we'll have to see where it all takes us.

[OakleyDokely]

I really don't see Barnes' best role moving forward as a high usage scorer. He's such a unique and versatile player that you want him to dominate the other key areas of game from a playmaking, rebounding, defensive versatility standpoint. Having him use most of his energy jacking up 25-30 shots a game night after night will make the other parts of his game suffer.

Even with Kawhi, you saw a noticeable drop off at the defensive end (especially in the regular season) as he got more involved offensively. There's only so much responsibility one guy can take on. If you're a pure scorer, it makes sense to focus on one side of the ball, but Scottie isn't that type of player and you waste a lot of his other qualities trying to make him that guy.

If the Raps are ever a contending team, it's likely because Barnes is teamed up with a natural scorer like a Kyrie, Maxey or Booker type. It's the job of the team to find a guy like that to add to the core because Scottie will never be able to do this on his own.

[ATLTimekeeper]

What Scottie is really good at is scoring in a variety of ways,

Which, honestly, is a little worrisome to me. Versatility is a trap if you don't have something you can lean on. That smacks of Melo, although obviously if Scottie was ever as good as Melo, I'd be thrilled. Melo was more "not elite" than he was "not a good choice as first option." He also worked really well off of a proper PG, and as a small-ball 4. HIs greatest sin was that he was a little overrated because people called him an ATG scorer when he was really more of a tier-2 guy, but even that was pretty awesome for Denver and, briefly, for New York as well.

But, Scottie is still young. There are some things he can do. Legit ball-handling improvement isn't that common, but it isn't impossible. Developing a shot, not impossible. We'll have to see. It's terribly unlikely, but that isn't a 0% chance. It'd be dope if he tightened up his handle, found an elbow/nail jumper and maybe a little more efficacy from his post game. Generally speaking, we tend to see the signs of a really dangerous scorer pretty early. The raw guys who come in and succeed typically have elite athleticism and then maybe develop a jumper later. Guys with the instincts and the tools usually show it by their second or third season. "Usually, typically," again, none of that is absolute. But I think it's pretty clear that Scottie isn't following the most common career arc for a guy who develops into a dangerous scorer. He's looking more like a Demar or a Kemba Walker or something like that, optimistically. And that's really the source of my pessimism around him, coupled to his lack of elite anything.

If he can get his 3 back, then in tandem with his ability to pass, he's got a long career ahead of him, but funneling loads of scoring possessions to him doesn't spark joy. The season is long, though, and he did end the last one with an injury, so we'll have to see where it all takes us.

I might be misunderstanding the thread, but for me it's not important that Scottie be a first option scorer like Kawhi, but to grow into a superstar. Maybe not a go to scorer, but the guy that drives most of the offense for the game and defends at an all-NBA level. I've already mentioned in threads this year he doesn't have a hot spot, or an office that he can work out of. We saw exhibit A last night down the stretch he didn't look threatening at all against a set D.

[tsherkin]

I really don't see Barnes' best role moving forward as a high usage scorer. He's such a unique and versatile player that you want him to dominate the other key areas of game from a playmaking, rebounding, defensive versatility standpoint. Having him use most of his energy jacking up 25-30 shots a game night after night will make the other parts of his game suffer.

Agreed, he does bring a lot of other things to the table. It wouldn't be horrible if he found a role where he didn't have to shoot that much but could focus on D, rebounding and playmaking. And then maybe emphasizing his optimized sets. He does well inside ten feet, he's a pretty decent post player. Transition + post + cuts wouldn't be a bad way to focus his scoring possessions.

[Buff]

You need 2 if not 3 max players, I'd argue that Scottie is the absolute perfect 1b if you are going to go get one of those no defense scorers. He will not pout, play great defense and score way easier. A Scottie Pippen to some scoring Jordan. I'd venture the Scotties are way harder to find than the high volumes.

[Tripod]

You need 2 if not 3 max players, I'd argue that Scottie is the absolute perfect 1b if you are going to go get one of those no defense scorers. He will not pout, play great defense and score way easier. A Scottie Pippen to some scoring Jordan. I'd venture the Scotties are way harder to find than the high volumes.

Yeah even to dumb it down a little...think of GTJ who could go off for 40 and was a shooter and averaged over 18pts a game one year. And think how empty those pts were due to not doing other things.

Or even Siakam. When he focused more on offense his defense 100% took a hit. Scottie is willing to do those other things no issue and get joy from helping get other guys buckets.

In the end, 20-8-6 & 2.5 stocks is great overall production. Perfect for a guy next to a natural scorer.

[Scase]

What Scottie is really good at is scoring in a variety of ways,

Which, honestly, is a little worrisome to me. Versatility is a trap if you don't have something you can lean on. That smacks of Melo, although obviously if Scottie was ever as good as Melo, I'd be thrilled. Melo was more "not elite" than he was "not a good choice as first option." He also worked really well off of a proper PG, and as a small-ball 4. HIs greatest sin was that he was a little overrated because people called him an ATG scorer when he was really more of a tier-2 guy, but even that was pretty awesome for Denver and, briefly, for New York as well.

But, Scottie is still young. There are some things he can do. Legit ball-handling improvement isn't that common, but it isn't impossible. Developing a shot, not impossible. We'll have to see. It's terribly unlikely, but that isn't a 0% chance. It'd be dope if he tightened up his handle, found an elbow/nail jumper and maybe a little more efficacy from his post game. Generally speaking, we tend to see the signs of a really dangerous scorer pretty early. The raw guys who come in and succeed typically have elite athleticism and then maybe develop a jumper later. Guys with the instincts and the tools usually show it by their second or third season. "Usually, typically," again, none of that is absolute. But I think it's pretty clear that Scottie isn't following the most common career arc for a guy who develops into a dangerous scorer. He's looking more like a Demar or a Kemba Walker or something like that, optimistically. And that's really the source of my pessimism around him, coupled to his lack of elite anything.

If he can get his 3 back, then in tandem with his ability to pass, he's got a long career ahead of him, but funneling loads of scoring possessions to him doesn't spark joy. The season is long, though, and he did end the last one with an injury, so we'll have to see where it all takes us.

I will say, his pull ups from the elbow have looked pretty good, not quite midrange but also only a couple feet short too. Most guys that cover him he's big/long enough to shoot over, I think if he can hone in on that, it might be his bread and butter that unlocks his passing game more. He needs to be doubled if he's on the block with anyone not blessed with an inhuman wingspan.

His 3 isn't going in, but the shots don't look bad either, kinda like Gradey last night. Not upset with the shots as they go out, they just arent dropping. I think he's always going to be a game to game streaky 3 pointer, which while not as good as a more consistent shooter, players still have to respect it all the same. Hopefully he can float around 35-36% by seasons end.

You need 2 if not 3 max players, I'd argue that Scottie is the absolute perfect 1b if you are going to go get one of those no defense scorers. He will not pout, play great defense and score way easier. A Scottie Pippen to some scoring Jordan. I'd venture the Scotties are way harder to find than the high volumes.

Absolutely this. It's not hard to find a guy who wants to put up 40 every night, it is hard as hell to find a guy who thrives playing defence and being a facilitator.

[tsherkin]

I will say, his pull ups from the elbow have looked pretty good, not quite midrange but also only a couple feet short too.

He's not hitting them at the moment, but we'll see how the season unfolds. If he gets comfortable taking them and those become a pet shot which starts to follow, that could be a significant development for him. They're something of a staple for Shai, and it could be a significant way to manipulate the defense using that shot as a threat.

[Scase]

I will say, his pull ups from the elbow have looked pretty good, not quite midrange but also only a couple feet short too.

He's not hitting them at the moment, but we'll see how the season unfolds. If he gets comfortable taking them and those become a pet shot which starts to follow, that could be a significant development for him. They're something of a staple for Shai, and it could be a significant way to manipulate the defense using that shot as a threat.

According to BBrefs shot chart he's making more than he's missing. But we might be talking about slightly different shots tbf. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but one thing that was very apparent in the DEN game, was that he was realizing he can just go straight up and shoot over people. Didn't need to fade etc. Hopefully we see him practice it more and improve over the year.

[tsherkin]

According to BBrefs shot chart he's making more than he's missing. But we might be talking about slightly different shots tbf. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but one thing that was very apparent in the DEN game, was that he was realizing he can just go straight up and shoot over people. Didn't need to fade etc. Hopefully we see him practice it more and improve over the year.

Oh you're talking the really short ones inside 10 feet?

I was looking at his seasonal chart over 4 games. THe link you're providing has him 2/4 at that range (EDIT: 10 - <16) but doesn't include the most recent game.

[YogurtProducer]

I will say, his pull ups from the elbow have looked pretty good, not quite midrange but also only a couple feet short too.

He's not hitting them at the moment, but we'll see how the season unfolds. If he gets comfortable taking them and those become a pet shot which starts to follow, that could be a significant development for him. They're something of a staple for Shai, and it could be a significant way to manipulate the defense using that shot as a threat.

According to BBrefs shot chart he's making more than he's missing. But we might be talking about slightly different shots tbf. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but one thing that was very apparent in the DEN game, was that he was realizing he can just go straight up and shoot over people. Didn't need to fade etc. Hopefully we see him practice it more and improve over the year.

Scottie just... doesn't like the right side?

[Scase]

According to BBrefs shot chart he's making more than he's missing. But we might be talking about slightly different shots tbf. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but one thing that was very apparent in the DEN game, was that he was realizing he can just go straight up and shoot over people. Didn't need to fade etc. Hopefully we see him practice it more and improve over the year.

Oh you're talking the really short ones inside 10 feet?

I was looking at his seasonal chart over 4 games. THe link you're providing has him 2/4 at that range (EDIT: 10 - <16) but doesn't include the most recent game.

Ah yeah maybe it's missing last nights game, BBref is weird with updating stuff.

[tsherkin]

According to BBrefs shot chart he's making more than he's missing. But we might be talking about slightly different shots tbf. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but one thing that was very apparent in the DEN game, was that he was realizing he can just go straight up and shoot over people. Didn't need to fade etc. Hopefully we see him practice it more and improve over the year.

Oh you're talking the really short ones inside 10 feet?

I was looking at his seasonal chart over 4 games. THe link you're providing has him 2/4 at that range (EDIT: 10 - <16) but doesn't include the most recent game.

Ah yeah maybe it's missing last nights game, BBref is weird with updating stuff.

Yeah, they update the main page first and the other stuff can take some time.

[anotherhomer]

a true number one superstar is paolo banchero...watching his highlights and you know his game is so complete

[tsherkin]

a true number one superstar is paolo banchero...watching his highlights and you know his game is so complete

Not yet he isn't. His next season at league-average efficiency will be his first. He has growth to go as well.

[HangTime]

You need 2 if not 3 max players, I'd argue that Scottie is the absolute perfect 1b if you are going to go get one of those no defense scorers. He will not pout, play great defense and score way easier. A Scottie Pippen to some scoring Jordan. I'd venture the Scotties are way harder to find than the high volumes.

Yeah even to dumb it down a little...think of GTJ who could go off for 40 and was a shooter and averaged over 18pts a game one year. And think how empty those pts were due to not doing other things.

Or even Siakam. When he focused more on offense his defense 100% took a hit. Scottie is willing to do those other things no issue and get joy from helping get other guys buckets.

In the end, 20-8-6 & 2.5 stocks is great overall production. Perfect for a guy next to a natural scorer.

That's what makes a Natural Scorer a great 2nd option.

When the team is healthy, I think Scottie could go for 30 easily, and that's as a non-natural scorer.

That's why I think he's a perfect #1. Defenses Playing a guy for his scoring, is easier than playing a guy looking for the best shot, whether that's his shot, or cleaner look for someone else.

You also keep your teammates engaged. It's that Jokic meets Lebron type mold.

[Tripod]

You need 2 if not 3 max players, I'd argue that Scottie is the absolute perfect 1b if you are going to go get one of those no defense scorers. He will not pout, play great defense and score way easier. A Scottie Pippen to some scoring Jordan. I'd venture the Scotties are way harder to find than the high volumes.

Yeah even to dumb it down a little...think of GTJ who could go off for 40 and was a shooter and averaged over 18pts a game one year. And think how empty those pts were due to not doing other things.

Or even Siakam. When he focused more on offense his defense 100% took a hit. Scottie is willing to do those other things no issue and get joy from helping get other guys buckets.

In the end, 20-8-6 & 2.5 stocks is great overall production. Perfect for a guy next to a natural scorer.

That's what makes a Natural Scorer a great 2nd option.

When the team is healthy, I think Scottie could go for 30 easily, and that's as a non-natural scorer.

That's why I think he's a perfect #1. Defenses Playing a guy for his scoring, is easier than playing a guy looking for the best shot, whether that's his shot, or cleaner look for someone else.

You also keep your teammates engaged. It's that Jokic meets Lebron type mold.

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

[anotherhomer]

Yeah even to dumb it down a little...think of GTJ who could go off for 40 and was a shooter and averaged over 18pts a game one year. And think how empty those pts were due to not doing other things.

Or even Siakam. When he focused more on offense his defense 100% took a hit. Scottie is willing to do those other things no issue and get joy from helping get other guys buckets.

In the end, 20-8-6 & 2.5 stocks is great overall production. Perfect for a guy next to a natural scorer.

That's what makes a Natural Scorer a great 2nd option.

When the team is healthy, I think Scottie could go for 30 easily, and that's as a non-natural scorer.

That's why I think he's a perfect #1. Defenses Playing a guy for his scoring, is easier than playing a guy looking for the best shot, whether that's his shot, or cleaner look for someone else.

You also keep your teammates engaged. It's that Jokic meets Lebron type mold.

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

that's a more accurate statement, he's definitely a lowry type impact player....

i saw the den replays, he's starting to gradually show more flashes of the jumper but still a long work in progress....i say that's at least one year away from being more viable...