Retro Player of the Year 1982-83 UPDATE — Moses Malone

[kcktiny]

One notable example would be Quinn Buckner, whose career was built around his defense

Very good to excellent defender. But played just 1/26 of the Bucks total minutes those 6 seasons.

Paul Pressey, also a fantastic defensive guard

Played primarily SF. Their guards were the likes of Moncrief, Buckner, Brian Winters, Phil Ford, Nate Archibald, Lorenzo Romar, Craig Hodges, Kevin Grevey, Ricky Pierce. But yes Pressey was an excellent defender.

This isn't necessarily trying to take something away from Moncrief. But those elite DRtg's very much feel like an ensemble effort most years

With Moncrief playing almost 1/7 of their total minutes played over those 6 seasons, those Bucks were the league's dominant defensive team.

And those 6 years Moncrief played the most minutes among the league's SGs. But other SGs who played a lot of minutes during that time included high scorers like George Gervin, World Free, Darrell Griffith, none known for their defense.

Just out of curiosity, if 1 of those 3 SGs had played those 16483 minutes for Milwaukee instead of Moncrief over those 6 seasons, how much worse of a defensive team do you think the Bucks would have been? Still the best? 2nd or 3rd best?

Or more like 15th-20th best (4th-9th worst)? FYI there were only 23 teams at the time.

[AEnigma]

If you replaced Moncrief with Gervin, then I think they would still be an easy top ten defence, yes, but probably never top three.

[Cavsfansince84]

One notable example would be Quinn Buckner, whose career was built around his defense

Very good to excellent defender. But played just 1/26 of the Bucks total minutes those 6 seasons.

Paul Pressey, also a fantastic defensive guard

Played primarily SF. Their guards were the likes of Moncrief, Buckner, Brian Winters, Phil Ford, Nate Archibald, Lorenzo Romar, Craig Hodges, Kevin Grevey, Ricky Pierce. But yes Pressey was an excellent defender.

This isn't necessarily trying to take something away from Moncrief. But those elite DRtg's very much feel like an ensemble effort most years

With Moncrief playing almost 1/7 of their total minutes played over those 6 seasons, those Bucks were the league's dominant defensive team.

And those 6 years Moncrief played the most minutes among the league's SGs. But other SGs who played a lot of minutes during that time included high scorers like George Gervin, World Free, Darrell Griffith, none known for their defense.

Just out of curiosity, if 1 of those 3 SGs had played those 16483 minutes for Milwaukee instead of Moncrief over those 6 seasons, how much worse of a defensive team do you think the Bucks would have been? Still the best? 2nd or 3rd best?

Or more like 15th-20th best (4th-9th worst)? FYI there were only 23 teams at the time.

The 1/7 of total minutes over a 6 year period means less when discussing individual seasons. Not that I disagree with much else you're saying but it takes away from your argument when you want to talk about 6 year periods with moving part in a project dedicated to single seasons.

[penbeast0]

One notable example would be Quinn Buckner, whose career was built around his defense

Very good to excellent defender. But played just 1/26 of the Bucks total minutes those 6 seasons.

Paul Pressey, also a fantastic defensive guard

Played primarily SF. Their guards were the likes of Moncrief, Buckner, Brian Winters, Phil Ford, Nate Archibald, Lorenzo Romar, Craig Hodges, Kevin Grevey, Ricky Pierce. But yes Pressey was an excellent defender.

This isn't necessarily trying to take something away from Moncrief. But those elite DRtg's very much feel like an ensemble effort most years

With Moncrief playing almost 1/7 of their total minutes played over those 6 seasons, those Bucks were the league's dominant defensive team.

And those 6 years Moncrief played the most minutes among the league's SGs. But other SGs who played a lot of minutes during that time included high scorers like George Gervin, World Free, Darrell Griffith, none known for their defense.

Just out of curiosity, if 1 of those 3 SGs had played those 16483 minutes for Milwaukee instead of Moncrief over those 6 seasons, how much worse of a defensive team do you think the Bucks would have been? Still the best? 2nd or 3rd best?

Or more like 15th-20th best (4th-9th worst)? FYI there were only 23 teams at the time.

The 1/7 of total minutes over a 6 year period means less when discussing individual seasons. Not that I disagree with much else you're saying but it takes away from your argument when you want to talk about 6 year periods with moving part in a project dedicated to single seasons.

It does add something. When there is a great team defensive result one season, you can point to part time players who had career seasons and the like and say that the star's impact might have been overrated by DRtg. When it happens over a 6 year stretch including long stretches without Buckner or Pressey, you have to look at the main star, particularly when his peers and contemporaries consider him possibly the GOAT defensive SG; either that or the coach or both. I wouldn't dismiss Don Nelson's role and his playing the league's best "disguised" zone (not like anyone didn't know) despite the fact that in his own NBA career, he never played much defense himself.

[Cavsfansince84]

It does add something. When there is a great team defensive result one season, you can point to part time players who had career seasons and the like and say that the star's impact might have been overrated by DRtg. When it happens over a 6 year stretch including long stretches without Buckner or Pressey, you have to look at the main star, particularly when his peers and contemporaries consider him possibly the GOAT defensive SG; either that or the coach or both. I wouldn't dismiss Don Nelson's role and his playing the league's best "disguised" zone (not like anyone didn't know) despite the fact that in his own NBA career, he never played much defense himself.

I'm not saying its a meaningless stat but I think it shouldn't be the main thrust of any argument. He should also list the minutes for a given season.

[kcktiny]

If you replaced Moncrief with Gervin, then I think they would still be an easy top ten defence, yes, but probably never top three.

The 10th best defense in a league of 23 teams is close to just a league average defense. Those 6 seasons (1980-81 to 1985-86) the defenses ranged from allowing 101.1 (Milwaukee) to 109.3 pts/100poss (San Diego/LAClippers).

Those 6 years there were 38 SGs that played 5000+ minutes, and on offense they ranged in 2pt FG% from 45.3% to 55.1%. So I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the defensive 2pt FG% allowed by SGs in general was a somewhat similar range of about 10% (even 8%-12%).

If you assume that during that time Moncrief was the best SG defender on 2s (which I do) and Gervin one of the worst, and the more 2pt FGM that would be allowed by Gervin had he played Moncrief's minutes, you'd see about a 3-4 pts/100poss more scored against the Bucks, which would put that at about just the 9th to 10th best defense. But that's an assumption.

The 1/7 of total minutes over a 6 year period means less when discussing individual seasons.

Perhaps.

Not that I disagree with much else you're saying but it takes away from your argument when you want to talk about 6 year periods with moving part in a project dedicated to single seasons.

Don't really care about the project. Just the conversation the thread spurs (no pun intended) on 80s NBA.

When it happens over a 6 year stretch... you have to look at the main star

And the premise that that one player was for the most part a constant great on defense, which I do as it pertains to Moncrief.

[ShaqAttac]

how does bird have a superteam and then get swept by moncrief pretender and go ahead?

First, Milwaukee was the 4th best team in the league. Would you say it was impossible for the Celtics to lose a series to the 4th best team in the league last year? That type of thing does happen; like Dallas beating Minnesota. . .

Second, Bird was hobbled. He missed one game completely and was less effective in the rest. Plus, give credit to Don Nelson and Milwaukee, they did a great job.

they didnt just lose tho. they got nuked. i dont see how thats possible outside of a choke.

also don't it mean something bucks were only team to win vs moses and doctor j