Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league

[Tripod]

That's what makes a Natural Scorer a great 2nd option.

When the team is healthy, I think Scottie could go for 30 easily, and that's as a non-natural scorer.

That's why I think he's a perfect #1. Defenses Playing a guy for his scoring, is easier than playing a guy looking for the best shot, whether that's his shot, or cleaner look for someone else.

You also keep your teammates engaged. It's that Jokic meets Lebron type mold.

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

that's a more accurate statement, he's definitely a lowry type impact player....

i saw the den replays, he's starting to gradually show more flashes of the jumper but still a long work in progress....i say that's at least one year away from being more viable...

And given his contract...a bigger breakout next year better for the Raps than it happening this year.

[Clay Davis]

At first I wondered "was his shot there? I remember Kobe saying that when Kawhi came into the league, he couldn't shoot. Period. Is Tsherkin lying to us?"

xD

since unless Kobe meant he truly reversed his shooting rizz over the course of a year... which is possible, I'd think it's more likely that his shot just improved incrementally.

But then I looked at Kawhi's stats and it seems like he was always a good shooter lol.

He didn't take double-digit FGA/g until his 4th season, so it was probably hard to tell at the time. But he was also a 77% FT shooter as a rookie and then hasn't been under 80% since, and is over 86% on his career. Mashing almost 47% on corner 3s from his rookie season forward. 51% from 10-16 as early as his second season, and 42.4% on the long 2 that year, right?

So yeah, his shot was there early, though the sample size wasn't there. And of course, learning how to get to his shot and all that in volume against a defense focusing on him wasn't there while he was a defensive roleplayer, that developed over time. But the basics were there to a degree which is not true with Scottie. And that's aside from the athletic differences. I like Scottie, but he isn't That Guy, nor does he really profile that way outside of our desire to have such a player again very quickly. We have some rough luck in the draft, heh. At least he's far, far better than the Italian Mistake. Kawhi certainly had a developmental arc to follow, and patience with your young guys is useful. Scottie IS developing, he's shown us some things. It's just that he hasn't shown us the first thing which looks like he could leverage it to be a quality first option scorer. That's all. He looks like he's going to be a pretty sweet supporting cast guy, especially if he can find some consistency from 3. That's awesome. That's a player to keep an eye on, foster and develop, for sure. But he isn't a focal star. Those aren't that common, so it shouldn't be a surprise anyway.

I agree with everything you said, but I'd like to add a wrinkle to the rizz and pose another question:

Assuming that Scottie reaches his potential, and it's essentially a much better version of what he is now -- a do-it-all point forward type who's an excellent, switchable defender and who makes amazing passes -- do you think he could be the best player on a contending team?

I'd say yes. For instance, I think if you put that version of Scottie on a team with, say, Devin Booker and an amazing supporting cast that has no holes -- think, sorta like the Celtics this year -- then that could very well be a team that wins a championship.

[Buff]

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

If he gets Lowry's brain, watch out...and I think people here are taking for granted a kid who was supposed to be Draymond scoring wise and now puts 20pts easily without any bag. AND gives you 8 and 8 with good stocks, still the "fans" here **** on him everytime.

We can't have nice things.

[tsherkin]

Assuming that Scottie reaches his potential, and it's essentially a much better version of what he is now -- a do-it-all point forward type who's an excellent, switchable defender and who makes amazing passes -- do you think he could be the best player on a contending team?

I mean, if he reaches his potential, then he'd have found some way to become a quality scorer, no? So the answer should be "yes" in that situation, I imagine.

[bargs4mvp]

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

If he gets Lowry's brain, watch out...and I think people here are taking for granted a kid who was supposed to be Draymond scoring wise and now puts 20pts easily without any bag. AND gives you 8 and 8 with good stocks, still the "fans" here **** on him everytime.

We can't have nice things.

This. The fact that he puts up 20 pts a game with no bag at all is a great thing imo


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[Clay Davis]

Assuming that Scottie reaches his potential, and it's essentially a much better version of what he is now -- a do-it-all point forward type who's an excellent, switchable defender and who makes amazing passes -- do you think he could be the best player on a contending team?

I mean, if he reaches his potential, then he'd have found some way to become a quality scorer, no? So the answer should be "yes" in that situation, I imagine.

Ya but I think there's a difference between being a quality scorer and being a closer. Giannis, for instance, was a quality scorer but Khris Middleton was the closer. Different rizz.

[CPT]

Lowry checked all of the boxes for legit franchise player. The only thing he lacked was size.

With his Bball IQ, Work Ethic, Offensive Skill level, competitive fire & defensive capability, he was the closest thing we had to franchise player (aside from Kawhi).

You put Lowry's mind in VC's body & you have a top 10 NBA player of all time.

Lol you Lowry fan boys ..please stop smoking whatever you are on man, lol. LOWRY was barely above average NBA player and only benefitted from having superstar Kawhi carry the team ... he was the star... Lowry carried no one on any team, at any time ... Franchise player?.. lol post that in the general board... they laugh you out of town.

Lol can we just ban people who are so obviously out of touch with reality?

Lowry in a 6'6", mega athletic frame like VC is easily a HOF player. Outside of being taller and more athletic what did VC do better than Lowry?

Lowry was a better shooter, better defender, better playmaker, better rebounder, better pretty much everything that was onyl held back because he was MAYBE 6 feet tall.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/raptors-lowry-voted-among-nbas-smartest-annual-gms-poll/

The real answer is probably somewhere in between. I think Lowry is somewhat overrated by Raps fans, underrated by everyone else. It does seem like he had a "superstar" impact, but I think we also know there was a ceiling for team success with Lowry as your best player.

However, I'm replying to this discussion in particular because there's really nothing dumber than "if player A was ________, he'd be an all-time great" arguments. If Lowry had VC's body and athleticism, he'd be some different player. Why do we stop at VC? Why not LeBron? How about KG's body? Or Wemby? Can we give him Steph Curry's shot while we're at it?

In the meantime, what does VC's body get out of this? Can we give him Michael Jordan's brain instead? What are we doing here?

Kyle Lowry was Kyle Lowry. He doesn't get bonus points for being 6 feet tall instead of 6'6". What if he just became a gunner due to being able to move in different ways? He certainly had that in him. His body type forced him to play a certain way, and he was extremely effective and successful by playing that way. If you think he is top 10 all-time in basketball IQ, just say that.

[Tha Cynic]

I really don't see Barnes' best role moving forward as a high usage scorer. He's such a unique and versatile player that you want him to dominate the other key areas of game from a playmaking, rebounding, defensive versatility standpoint. Having him use most of his energy jacking up 25-30 shots a game night after night will make the other parts of his game suffer.

Even with Kawhi, you saw a noticeable drop off at the defensive end (especially in the regular season) as he got more involved offensively. There's only so much responsibility one guy can take on. If you're a pure scorer, it makes sense to focus on one side of the ball, but Scottie isn't that type of player and you waste a lot of his other qualities trying to make him that guy.

If the Raps are ever a contending team, it's likely because Barnes is teamed up with a natural scorer like a Kyrie, Maxey or Booker type. It's the job of the team to find a guy like that to add to the core because Scottie will never be able to do this on his own.

Personally I always felt there are two options for him - a modern day Garnett type who does everything well, and is the clear leader on the team, but someone else takes on the go to scoring (he's basically the big man version of Lowry). Other option is he morphs more into a LeBron James prototype where he generates from the perimeter and uses his body to bully the opposition, while being the clear cut best at everything on the team. Eventually he refines his offense and becomes a much better scorer. We need to see 20 games or so this season where he operates best and how he breaks down teams.

A Garnett type is probably easier to attain with his skillset (if he ever gets to either), but we have seen a couple of injections of the big perimeter player too in the last game.

[RoteSchroder]

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

If he gets Lowry's brain, watch out...and I think people here are taking for granted a kid who was supposed to be Draymond scoring wise and now puts 20pts easily without any bag. AND gives you 8 and 8 with good stocks, still the "fans" here **** on him everytime.

We can't have nice things.

There's a line between hating on him and wanting him to continue developing. There's nothing wrong with not being a #1 option. I would blame management/Ujiri for false advertising. Scottie's also at 52.7 TS% so far, which is really bad for a PF. He needs to start putting it together and build off of last season.

I think he can flip flop between a Lowry type vs Derozan type, but I think he'd benefit from both of DD and Lowry's traits.

Lowry was smarter, had a bulldog mentality, was a much better 3 point shooter.

Scottie's a bit closer to DD in terms of shot creating from the mid-range, weak perimeter shooting, weak ball-handling for a point-of-attack player (although DD got much better). DD put in a lot of work to polish his mid-range game, which Scottie needs to do. Scottie has a length, height and strength advantage with better court vision than DD, so that mid-range stuff would benefit him much more.

[Scase]

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

If he gets Lowry's brain, watch out...and I think people here are taking for granted a kid who was supposed to be Draymond scoring wise and now puts 20pts easily without any bag. AND gives you 8 and 8 with good stocks, still the "fans" here **** on him everytime.

We can't have nice things.

Lets not forget how Lowrys brain was when he was young, he was a petulant little **** that used to pout on the Rockets, he grew up here. Scottie is 23, there's time.

[Clutch0z24]

Yeah we are going to need to find an Alpha scorer type of player who can get buckets easy in the next few drafts coming up for the next era of the Raptors to reach its peak....We have a decent head start of the rebuild since i think we have a solid core team to surround a number 1 scorer with....Barnes/IQ/Barrett/Dick + All the young guys we have that can grow with the team is very solid depth...

Find that alpha Kawhi like scorer and your up there with any team in the NBA....Hope it comes in the 2025 draft

[HangTime]

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

If he gets Lowry's brain, watch out...and I think people here are taking for granted a kid who was supposed to be Draymond scoring wise and now puts 20pts easily without any bag. AND gives you 8 and 8 with good stocks, still the "fans" here **** on him everytime.

We can't have nice things.

Scottie is the Chameleon of the NBA.
He is hidden in plain sight,
But he's shown parts of his greatness (like a video game power up)
But when the power up "wears off", those people/fans forget about it what they just saw.
There seems to only be a few of us that know/remember the greatness is already here.

To the those who don't see it, Just be patient, Darko's seeing whom else can play in an expanded rotation when everyone is healthy.

[RoteSchroder]

I have always said he is a Lowry vs being a Derozan. We know who was more important despite scoring less

If he gets Lowry's brain, watch out...and I think people here are taking for granted a kid who was supposed to be Draymond scoring wise and now puts 20pts easily without any bag. AND gives you 8 and 8 with good stocks, still the "fans" here **** on him everytime.

We can't have nice things.

Lets not forget how Lowrys brain was when he was young, he was a petulant little **** that used to pout on the Rockets, he grew up here. Scottie is 23, there's time.

I never really had a problem with young Lowry, was a fan of him when he was in Houston. Dude wanted to start and had an aggressive/bulldog playing style and wasn't afraid of confrontation. He matured both off-court and on-court about the same time.

[mdenny]

There is a collection of posters on this board who have been so incredibly annoying in running the Scotty is savior agenda.

They did so while putting down all our championship players. Probably the only chip us raptor fans will see in our lifetime. But we have to tolerate these forum clowns , unnamed, trash all our chip players while over-hyping a great player like scotty.

[mdenny]

I rememeber when one of the scptty brigade clowns made the claim: "Malachi flynn and Terrence Davis were the future raptor backcourt".

In anycase...I can't help but feel a little unsettled that noone in the raptors coaching staff have not hit Scotty with a dose of reality.

Scotty is not an nba point guard. Old man scotty can barely bend his knees. His handle is "good" for a player with his size. His court vision is elite. But his handle is not "very good". And on scale with nba point guards....scotty's handle is actually "not good". Mostly because he he has no flexibility and can't bend his knees. His comfort dribbles go up to his chin. It will never work under sustained nba-like pressure.

Scotty is upright and stiff. Paul George in his prime is an example of a player of that size that had a tight enough handle to carry the ball up the floor in crunch time. Scotty will never be that guy. He's too stiff and upright to do that.

[dTox]

There is a collection of posters on this board who have been so incredibly annoying in running the Scotty is savior agenda.

They did so while putting down all our championship players. Probably the only chip us raptor fans will see in our lifetime. But we have to tolerate these forum clowns , unnamed, trash all our chip players while over-hyping a great player like scotty.

Why do random people who you don't know, on a message board, influence you to have so much hate towards a Raptor player? Especially for the one who is going to eventually become the next Michael Jordan.

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[ATLTimekeeper]

Re Lowry comp - As a Lowry at Villanova fan, I can assure you he was always high motor. Scottie has a hot/cold motor. Lowry's trust issues with coaches, off court pain-in-the-assery, etc never bled onto the court in Memphis, Houston or early Toronto.

Re KG comp - again, the motor was always on. My comp for Scottie is Rasheed Wallace. You think you can get more out of him, but there's some physical and emotional limitations that render him a hair less than the elite.

Re play with Booker! The Middleton to Giannis comp! Booker can't even win with KD. He had one year being carried by Chris Paul. For Scottie to get to Giannis' level he has to get closer to high 20s ppg on elite efficiency.

Superstars are rare. There just isn't an inefficient superstar in this day and age where scoring is a little easier. We need to see more time with Scottie and his best teammates to see if what he's worked on in the summer is enough to build efficiency.

[Tripod]

There is a collection of posters on this board who have been so incredibly annoying in running the Scotty is savior agenda.

They did so while putting down all our championship players. Probably the only chip us raptor fans will see in our lifetime. But we have to tolerate these forum clowns , unnamed, trash all our chip players while over-hyping a great player like scotty.

Savior? Few have ever said that.

Those championship players started to get turned on when they started playing for their next contract and put the team 2nd. Meanwhile, we had a #4 pick who needed reps for development, sitting in the corner so guys could play iso ball.

Just like Nurse got turned on when it was clear he bailed on the team.

All Barnes has done is exceed expectations in 3 years. Deemed furthest away from hitting his potential on draft day...yet won ROTY and is the only All Star from his draft so far.

Still with no bag, no go to move, no shooting, no favorable whistle, no stretch C, no floor spacing from teammates, yet is a 20-8-6 +2.5 stocks guy. You can't see why some could be excited that some of those things can improve to make his impact even bigger?

And almost everyone wants to see him with an elite scorer because even his biggest fans know he is a pass first play...not a score 1st guy. RJ is the opposite and it's quite clear watching both. We just need that score 1st guy be able to be a reliable outside shooter.

[tsherkin]

Ya but I think there's a difference between being a quality scorer and being a closer. Giannis, for instance, was a quality scorer but Khris Middleton was the closer. Different rizz.

Depends on the style, I guess. Giannis had some big games. HE was 't the end-of-clock guy, sure, but he was all they needed in terms of a focal scorer. Anyway, the question is sort of an odd one to me. If Scottie maximizes his potential, that means he's added a proper jumper from all ranges and a dribble game, right? Like, maximizing all his potential skills.

Any player who reaches their maximum potential is going to be at a level where they could lead a title team, in essence, so to me, that question doesn't have enough restriction on it to have meaning. Does that make sense? Like, Scottie isn't dumb. And he isn't unathletic. He isn't an elite athlete, but let's be real, we've seen dudes without big burst play the change-of-pace game and wield a strong jumper and handle just fine. And Barnes is 6'8 with a power frame, so he's got some tools to work with. When he turns his body to guard the ball, he can get things done. If he decided he wanted to just live at the elbow, he'd do quite well there if he could hit the J from that range, especially with a little Dirk fade. So he could potentially be quite dangerous.

But yeah, think of 2011 Dirk. He didn't have lift. He didn't have great burst anymore. He authored the slowest spin move in the history of all creation against Bosh in Game 2 of the Finals to get the go-ahead bucket. So it can be done. Dirk is 7 feet, of course, but even still. So yeah, with full potential realized, Scottie would be fine as a focal guy. But because he lacks elite athleticism and doesn't have the shot right now and all that, what it would take to get there is a larger mountain to climb, I guess. But he'd be pretty nasty if he maxed out.

[Buff]

Ya but I think there's a difference between being a quality scorer and being a closer. Giannis, for instance, was a quality scorer but Khris Middleton was the closer. Different rizz.

Depends on the style, I guess. Giannis had some big games. HE was 't the end-of-clock guy, sure, but he was all they needed in terms of a focal scorer. Anyway, the question is sort of an odd one to me. If Scottie maximizes his potential, that means he's added a proper jumper from all ranges and a dribble game, right? Like, maximizing all his potential skills.

Any player who reaches their maximum potential is going to be at a level where they could lead a title team, in essence, so to me, that question doesn't have enough restriction on it to have meaning. Does that make sense? Like, Scottie isn't dumb. And he isn't unathletic. He isn't an elite athlete, but let's be real, we've seen dudes without big burst play the change-of-pace game and wield a strong jumper and handle just fine. And Barnes is 6'8 with a power frame, so he's got some tools to work with. When he turns his body to guard the ball, he can get things done. If he decided he wanted to just live at the elbow, he'd do quite well there if he could hit the J from that range, especially with a little Dirk fade. So he could potentially be quite dangerous.

But yeah, think of 2011 Dirk. He didn't have lift. He didn't have great burst anymore. He authored the slowest spin move in the history of all creation against Bosh in Game 2 of the Finals to get the go-ahead bucket. So it can be done. Dirk is 7 feet, of course, but even still. So yeah, with full potential realized, Scottie would be fine as a focal guy. But because he lacks elite athleticism and doesn't have the shot right now and all that, what it would take to get there is a larger mountain to climb, I guess. But he'd be pretty nasty if he maxed out.

But there is not even a need for that, we will need another max to compete, let's get a #1 and be happy that scottie will be happy. He will give you 20-8-8 in his sleep because I think he is elite at opportunistic scoring/assits.