PG: The Myth of Sisyphus is over .500

[CBS7]

Hot take- we would not be 3-2 with Caruso instead of Giddey.

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

It was always a terrible trade. On the surface it looked like a tank move but didn't get a pick in return. But then the FO strongly implied (if not out right stated) we're not tanking and the plan is to make the playoffs. I think the FO should cut their losses with Giddey and take advantage of the value he has while its still there and bolster our front court. Especially with how well Vuc has been playing

This is a weird take. Theres no shot that they trade a high value asset for a young player only to trade the young player at the start of the season.

[patryk7754]

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

It was always a terrible trade. On the surface it looked like a tank move but didn't get a pick in return. But then the FO strongly implied (if not out right stated) we're not tanking and the plan is to make the playoffs. I think the FO should cut their losses with Giddey and take advantage of the value he has while its still there and bolster our front court. Especially with how well Vuc has been playing

This is a weird take. Theres no shot that they trade a high value asset for a young player only to trade the young player at the start of the season.

Just because it’s not likely doesn’t mean it’s a “weird take” or shouldn’t happen. Giddey isn’t good but probably still has decent value. So why wouldn’t you at least considering trading by himself or a team friendly package to improve a need on the roster. It’d be weird to not at least think about. And it wouldn’t be at the start of the season. Most trades happen closer to the deadline

[dougthonus]

I have not crunched the numbers and don't plan to but is it possible his +/- (broken record, stat means nothing without a very, very large sample size) is simply due to the terrible starts we've had and because on his (presumed) minutes restriction he ends up being the centerpiece of some pretty terrible 5 man units. NOTE: I have not confirmed the thing about the units, but it "feels" like he's out there quite a bit some pretty bizarre groupings.

Just wondering out loud about what could explain it.

It's mostly because our starters are getting killed, Vuc and Zach are the 2nd and 3rd worst guys among regulars.

Again, I'm not using this number to say "Giddey is playing bad", just saying the idea that "Giddey is the reason we're getting these wins" also doesn't seem likely. We aren't winning his minutes.

[dougthonus]

Hot take- we would not be 3-2 with Caruso instead of Giddey.

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

It was always a terrible trade. On the surface it looked like a tank move but didn't get a pick in return. But then the FO strongly implied (if not out right stated) we're not tanking and the plan is to make the playoffs. I think the FO should cut their losses with Giddey and take advantage of the value he has while its still there and bolster our front court. Especially with how well Vuc has been playing

I like the trade as an upside move

It probably won't work, but people seem to think we were going to get a superstar for a 30 year old role player on an expiring deal that frequently gets hurt and plays 25 minutes a game. I mean I love Alex Caruso, think Alex Caruso was desired around the league by anyone, but also think the amount teams would pay for him was pretty limited.

I don't think we were going to get a higher upside player than Giddey for him.

[patryk7754]

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

It was always a terrible trade. On the surface it looked like a tank move but didn't get a pick in return. But then the FO strongly implied (if not out right stated) we're not tanking and the plan is to make the playoffs. I think the FO should cut their losses with Giddey and take advantage of the value he has while its still there and bolster our front court. Especially with how well Vuc has been playing

I like the trade as an upside move

It probably won't work, but people seem to think we were going to get a superstar for a 30 year old role player on an expiring deal that frequently gets hurt and plays 25 minutes a game. I mean I love Alex Caruso, think Alex Caruso was desired around the league by anyone, but also think the amount teams would pay for him was pretty limited.

I don't think we were going to get a higher upside player than Giddey for him.

Fair enough. I think we could have gotten pick(s) for Caruso from contenders but I understand the logic of trading him for an up and comer, especially if you know you're not competing with the top teams. My issue is that im very confident Giddey is not the up and comer people want him to be. I have a hard time seeing him becoming an all-star level player, let a lone a superstar. But I would be pleasantly surprised if he does end up being good. But there was a reason he was benched last year.

An example of what I think would have been better for us is trading Caruso to the Lakers and using their pick for Dalton Knect or Yves Missi. and we may have been able to get Vanderbilt in return as well.

[DuckIII]

I have not crunched the numbers and don't plan to but is it possible his +/- (broken record, stat means nothing without a very, very large sample size) is simply due to the terrible starts we've had and because on his (presumed) minutes restriction he ends up being the centerpiece of some pretty terrible 5 man units. NOTE: I have not confirmed the thing about the units, but it "feels" like he's out there quite a bit some pretty bizarre groupings.

Just wondering out loud about what could explain it.

It's mostly because our starters are getting killed, Vuc and Zach are the 2nd and 3rd worst guys among regulars.

Again, I'm not using this number to say "Giddey is playing bad", just saying the idea that "Giddey is the reason we're getting these wins" also doesn't seem likely. We aren't winning his minutes.

It doesn't really work that way. Even if a player is "losing" in the minutes he's playing (again in this meaningless sample size) due to the impact of the other 4, said player could be keeping "losing" minutes from being "blown out" minutes which in turn adds winning value when other units do well.

I am not over the moon with Giddey. Don't know how it will work out. I just don't think the +/- argument is as cut and dry as you are saying.

[drosestruts]

Great 2nd half for those like myself who continue to hold out hope for Patrick Williams. Great defense and great shooting. It's a heck of a foundation to build off of and hope for more out of

[dougthonus]

An example of what I think would have been better for us is trading Caruso to the Lakers and using their pick for Dalton Knect or Yves Missi. and we may have been able to get Vanderbilt in return as well.

I think the long term upside of Giddey is higher than that of Knecht (whom is almost 2 years older than Giddey despite being a rookie) or Missi. The only thing I hate about Giddey is that you have to pay him immediately and he projects to be one of these guys that's going to be in this contract range that yields overpaid players.

But I think your idea likely represents an entirely different path. Draft someone, be really bad, keep our pick, and do full rebuild rather than another attempt at retooling which is where we are today. I don't hate that plan and wouldn't have been upset with it either FWIW.

Like I said, the Giddey plan is likely to fail, but so is that one. We're at a spot where all plans are likely to fail unfortunately.

[pipfan]

If we're going to try to win, I think we could shorten the rotation some. Drop Terry and up ayo's minutes
White/Ayo
Lavine/White
Giddy/Phillips
PWill/Phillips/Smith
Vuc/Smith

[FriedRise]

I know they pulled off the back to back 20pt comebacks, but I think Billy needs to make an adjustment to that starting lineup if he wants to avoid always digging a huge hole in the 1st quarter. It's becoming a pattern now.

Between Coby, Zach, Giddey, and Vooch, there are just too many targets the other team can choose to attack. The problem is who are you taking out? You're not benching Zach or Giddey period - so Ayo instead of Coby who's been largely excellent? Smith over Vooch who's been shooting lights out? Maybe tinker with the substitutions so Ayo or Smith can check into the game sooner?

[Ccwatercraft]

On a side note, I love the fact that we can win these types of games. As a fan you love to win.

But on the other hand, my goal this year is to select a franchise changing talent in the offseason.

If we are winning these games on the backs of GIddey, Coby, Pat and Ayo etc, and we are outside of top 10, then I can live with that. That is our youth. That is our core. It means we are on to something.

But if we start winning these games on the back of Vooch and Zach, then that is bad and something I do not want.

The last thing I want is a Niko and Shawn Kildraftpick season. Niko coming off a broken fact goes crazy and we win 7 straight games before we gets traded. Then Killpatrick comes off the G league heap and we win like 3-4 games we shouldn't down the stretch. Completely lose out on a Luka. Even though apparently, we would have taken the wrong guy in Bagley anyway.

But the point is, if we win, we win because of mostly the young core. Last night was a good example of that.

I'm not sure winning on the backs of vuc and Zach would be that concerning, and would also add that no matter what it would still be a team effort, they aren't playing THAT good.

My reasoning is that both are under contract, they both are professional and if it's truly the case (trades) then their trade value is on the rise if we do part ways.

Zach still fits the timeline, and vuc is apparently our best option right now at C. If vuc keeps up his improved play.hes much less of an concern than he was last year, so we have time to find his replacement, or if Smith ends up being that guy then we have time to find smith's replacement.

Overall I find that we've made some solid adjustments to the roster and play style, the Giddey trade so far looks like a very solid move, the Smith addition has been a positive one.

Frankly it still circles back to PWill, he still has flaws and hasn't taken a leap and he's a 5 yr deal. I'm not saying by any stretch that he will be our downfall, but dammit we really need to fill the gap at the 4 with another big body to at least back him up when we're up against teams that can put two legit bigs out there.

Ideally we solve that issue without sacrificing our solid guards, but I'm certainly not expecting that a carter trade is going to solve that depth issue at 4/5, if it's a vuc trade also unlikely, so only a zach trade could bring us a big man to help, but then we lose out on a high volume efficient scorer in zach so we'd be just switching from one problem to another.

Matas... sigh, he looked so much more comfortable in SL, he's still getting his feet wet in the nba but looks a bit out of place right now, I'm hoping he can get a couple of poster dunks and that will light that spark that I know he has in him. It's coming, I'm sure of it and we'll see him be a positive contributor and not what we see now. I have to remind myself that he's still a rook so I'm not going to judge him harshly, it takes time.

[WindyCityBorn]

Hot take- we would not be 3-2 with Caruso instead of Giddey.

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

It was always a terrible trade. On the surface it looked like a tank move but didn't get a pick in return. But then the FO strongly implied (if not out right stated) we're not tanking and the plan is to make the playoffs. I think the FO should cut their losses with Giddey and take advantage of the value he has while its still there and bolster our front court. Especially with how well Vuc has been playing

He doesn’t agree with you. No one that has actually been watching the games does. Nice try though.

[Ccwatercraft]

Hot take- we would not be 3-2 with Caruso instead of Giddey.

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

That's super interesting. Doesn't pass my eye test at all and I swear his passing has been contagious to the whole team and we just have so much more structure/identity when he's out there. Will be interesting to monitor.

This has been the best start of a season for Vooch since he's been a Bull and i swear he still misses soooooo many bunny's right at the rim. If he just hit those 2-3 easy one he keeps missing within 5 feet he might average 25 a game.

Vuc needs to spend time with Johnny dunk to much, does that guy exist? Hire him!

Giddey, the +/- is irrelevant at this point, imo he's had a very positive impact, he's a scrapper and I like it.

[madvillian]

Feels nice to over .500 even if it's still October. The eye test says Giddey is a decent player, especially when he's hitting 40% or so of his wide open triples. Eye test also says Pat is critical to anything we do defensively. Eye test says Vuc is having a great start offensively but is a big problem defensively, especially at the start of games.

Eye test says Terry isn't an NBA level player and that Matas right now is overwhelmed and isn't a rotation guy either. So maybe Craig can step up? Not really sure but it's going to be a problem not having that depth if we're playing at such a fast pace.

I think maybe I've upped my win total to like 35. There's enough improvement from having Zach around, Giddey playing like a solid starter, incremental improvement from Pat and Coby and Vuc not declining as feared to get another half dozen or so.

If Zach can stay healthy and gets traded and we finish around 32 that's about ideal imo. We wouldn't be a total disaster with the remaining guys and if you squint it's a better position than we've been in since AKME rebooted things with the Vuc trade.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I have not crunched the numbers and don't plan to but is it possible his +/- (broken record, stat means nothing without a very, very large sample size) is simply due to the terrible starts we've had and because on his (presumed) minutes restriction he ends up being the centerpiece of some pretty terrible 5 man units. NOTE: I have not confirmed the thing about the units, but it "feels" like he's out there quite a bit some pretty bizarre groupings.

Just wondering out loud about what could explain it.

It's mostly because our starters are getting killed, Vuc and Zach are the 2nd and 3rd worst guys among regulars.

Again, I'm not using this number to say "Giddey is playing bad", just saying the idea that "Giddey is the reason we're getting these wins" also doesn't seem likely. We aren't winning his minutes.

Plus minus is one of the dumbest stats because it has zero context.

Who would you say our best players on the season were last year? Most would say Coby, Demar, AC. Probably in that order.

Yet by that stupid stat

Alex Caruso had a plus minus of +3 on the season.
Patrick Wiliams had a plus minus of -14 on the season
Coby White had a plus minus of -35 on the season.
Demar had a plus minus of -63 on the season.
Zach had a plus minus of -92 on the season.
Ayo had a plus mins of -159 on the season.
Vooch had a plus minus of -181 on the season.

So by that logic. AC equaled to someone only slightly positive on the court. Patrick was only slightly negative. Same with Coby.
Demar was a bad impact player and Zach, Ayo and Yooch were terrible.

That would sound crazy right. But those were the stats. It was clearly obvious that Coby was terrific out there for most of the season. Same for Ayo, Demar was as solid, all star level player and clutch as can be.

AC has his best defensive and shooting season of his career. Yet that was AC's second worst career in plus minus.

Right. That makes no sense.

You kind of have to really watch the game and see the impact for it to make sense. Because you literally can check in on free throws and be a +2

[patryk7754]

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

It was always a terrible trade. On the surface it looked like a tank move but didn't get a pick in return. But then the FO strongly implied (if not out right stated) we're not tanking and the plan is to make the playoffs. I think the FO should cut their losses with Giddey and take advantage of the value he has while its still there and bolster our front court. Especially with how well Vuc has been playing

He doesn’t agree with you. No one that has actually been watching the games does. Nice try though.

lol ok? Didn’t say he did. Nice try tho

[League Circles]

So far I'm pleased with giddy. Even as a defender, he looks quite good to me other than the very notable weakness of lateral quickness. As a jump shooter, he of course has a very slow release, but if he can continue to hit it at a high enough rate to keep defenders more honest, then I think his overall game can shine enough to be a long-term starter running the offense.

[madvillian]

So far I'm pleased with giddy. Even as a defender, he looks quite good to me other than the very notable weakness of lateral quickness. As a jump shooter, he of course has a very slow release, but if he can continue to hit it at a high enough rate to keep defenders more honest, then I think his overall game can shine enough to be a long-term starter running the offense.

I think his defense is pretty bad but one thing he contributes is length and that is helping us on the glass imo. With a more energized Pat (hasn't always been effective, but he's been hustling on the glass more imo) and Giddey's length we're getting to more 50/50 balls especially off long rebounds.

On a completely different note I think he's added some emotional energy (and decision making) we needed as a team and it's rubbed off a bit on guys like Pat and even Zach. Zach had a bad game last night but he made a couple decisions in the 4th that I don't think he makes last year. I credit Giddey's approach to getting people involved a bit. Whereas Demar would go iso and hero ball (which to be fair was often or best option) and Zach would usually follow, Giddey's approach to keep the ball moving and push the pace has set a better example for when things get tight in the 4th. We don't have a superstar we have to keep moving the ball.

[Ccwatercraft]

It's early, but we're getting absolutely crushed in the Giddey minutes overall. He has the worst adjusted +/- in the team. I don't believe that +/- means much at this stage in the game, but its pretty hard to correlate Giddey to all our wins given that information.

It was always a terrible trade. On the surface it looked like a tank move but didn't get a pick in return. But then the FO strongly implied (if not out right stated) we're not tanking and the plan is to make the playoffs. I think the FO should cut their losses with Giddey and take advantage of the value he has while its still there and bolster our front court. Especially with how well Vuc has been playing

I like the trade as an upside move

It probably won't work, but people seem to think we were going to get a superstar for a 30 year old role player on an expiring deal that frequently gets hurt and plays 25 minutes a game. I mean I love Alex Caruso, think Alex Caruso was desired around the league by anyone, but also think the amount teams would pay for him was pretty limited.

I don't think we were going to get a higher upside player than Giddey for him.

The only argument that I could see was that the timing wasn't perfect. It's certainly possible that he draws more value at last year's deadline but most likely those would have been just a future pick(s) and an expiring.

Over time the Giddey evaluation will become clear, but it takes a few games for the team to gel, the offense can and will be smoother.

Off topic.. Not to directly compare players, but what I see in Josh is similar to Austin reaves, just kind of a heady player with some dog in them that makes up for looking clumsy.

So as far as "cut your losses" that's a no for me.

I'm team "count your blessings" He checks a lot of boxes.

[League Circles]

Fun fact: Caruso is averaging 21 mpg off the bench and shooting 13% from the field through 4 games.