PG: The Myth of Sisyphus is over .500

[Chi town]

This is a weird take. Theres no shot that they trade a high value asset for a young player only to trade the young player at the start of the season.

Just because it’s not likely doesn’t mean it’s a “weird take” or shouldn’t happen. Giddey isn’t good but probably still has decent value. So why wouldn’t you at least considering trading by himself or a team friendly package to improve a need on the roster. It’d be weird to not at least think about. And it wouldn’t be at the start of the season. Most trades happen closer to the deadline

I'm sorry, what? Giddey isn't good? He actually is quite good and only just turned 22 years old.

As for trading him for a "need on the roster", Giddey IS a need on the roster, a need this team has lacked for 2 and a half seasons, a lead play-maker who gets others involved. If you want to improve a need, try trading one of the other many guards the team has on the roster.

Preach

[Chi town]

BTW if Bulls want to win you play Duarte over DT and probably JP too. He can shoot and plays D. I’d give him ever min over DT who has no future.

[Red8911]

For Vuc to stop missing the bunnies, he needs to spend time with Ponce de León.

I think starting Smith would be a HUGE improvement with the starting unit. He just brings so much more balance to the unit. I think that Vuc would actually be better coming off the bench because then he'll go up against the Wendell Carter's of the world on a nightly basis and feast.

No bigger Vuc hater than me, but he's been really good offensively this year so far.

That said, Jalen Smith has been even better offensively, and also better defensively.

You’re actually the biggest Vuc hater on this board, very surprised you praised him for the first time ever lol.

[Sinistar6]

Adding giddey with Zo gives us 2 of what we have been missing. Vision with size. It seems to be what this offense revolves around.

[RSP83]

BTW if Bulls want to win you play Duarte over DT and probably JP too. He can shoot and plays D. I’d give him ever min over DT who has no future.

Yes, I like to see Billy experiment more with the deep second unit rotation.

Main fixture (8-man):
Vuc
Pat
Giddey
White
Zach
Lonzo
Ayo
Smith

The rest:
Philips
Terry
Matas
Duarte
Carter
Craig
Sanogo

Out of the rest group, Philips seems to be ahead of everybody in securing regular minutes. Matas is getting default development minutes, but he hasn't really establish himself as a role player. Terry seems like Billy's top of the list filler guy when he needs some type of energy on defense. Duarte is a legit NBA talent and still 27, I'd love to see what he can offer and explore some role possibility for him. It's going to be difficult to find minutes for him, but at least for Billy not forgetting to find some minutes for him to showcase as well.

[GoBlue72391]

Fun fact: Caruso is averaging 21 mpg off the bench and shooting 13% from the field through 4 games.

That means just as much as Giddey's 59% from three through 5 games.

[GoBlue72391]

So far I'm pleased with giddy. Even as a defender, he looks quite good to me other than the very notable weakness of lateral quickness. As a jump shooter, he of course has a very slow release, but if he can continue to hit it at a high enough rate to keep defenders more honest, then I think his overall game can shine enough to be a long-term starter running the offense.

I've thought he looks like complete crap on defense aside from some isolated moments, which you can say about pretty much any player. He does have elite size for his position though, so I'm hopeful he can eventually approach average on that end of the court.

On the other hand, he's been pretty good on offense and I think that'll still be true even when his 3 ball comes back down to earth.

[GoBlue72391]

So far I'm pleased with giddy. Even as a defender, he looks quite good to me other than the very notable weakness of lateral quickness.

I was reading your post and when I got to the point about how he looks quite good I immediately thought “what about his total inability to stay in front of his man on the perimeter?” But then you got to it. I don’t see how a PG can look “quite good” defensively when he can’t really do the most important defensive thing for a PG to do.

He’s okay at the rest of it defensively so far, but the thing he can’t do well is pretty huge. The question is whether the rest of his game is good enough that he’s still worth a significant commitment.

Well I don't think he's usually defending the opposing 1, so it's not quite as big of an issue as it would be if he was, but my main point was that I think he has good defensive instincts. He knows where and how to position himself, he's solid at contesting shots without fouling, and he doesn't get pushed around too much (he's pretty tough/scrappy). So as long as you can "hide" him defensively on somebody who isn't a good dribble driver (who would really expose his lack of lateral quickness), I'm not as worried about him on D as I thought I'd be. For example IMO he's substantially better than Vuc on D IMO, or a Trae Young type.

I disagree completely. Some of his transition D and off-ball D decisions have been head-scratching IMO, so that makes me question his defensive instincts in addition to his physical ability on that side of the floor.

[GoBlue72391]

Great 2nd half for those like myself who continue to hold out hope for Patrick Williams. Great defense and great shooting. It's a heck of a foundation to build off of and hope for more out of

I more or less stopped posting about Pat last year because my positive views on his ceiling are purely subjective and the board hates him. To the point that many will not even acknowledge his defensive quality. But despite his at times comically poor offensive start, which he has every year, I remain completely unconcerned with his physical talent and skills.

In my view, his issue remains mental and role based. Mentally, I actually think he looks much better and much more engaged this year. Role? Still trash, but less trash than the prior trash.

Back to not discussing him and just waiting to see what happens.

Pat strikes me as the kind of player who would out of the blue have a great impact in a major playoff series and you never saw it coming.

Plays great defense and gets a game winning block or hits a game winning 3.

That's basically what he did last night. The problem is he doesn't show up consistently and even with his performance last night, if that's considered a good game for him is that enough to justify his contract and draft position?

If we had known this is the player he would be in year 5, and projects to be going forward, on the night we drafted him, I don't think a single soul other than Guru would have been happy.

[Chi town]

I more or less stopped posting about Pat last year because my positive views on his ceiling are purely subjective and the board hates him. To the point that many will not even acknowledge his defensive quality. But despite his at times comically poor offensive start, which he has every year, I remain completely unconcerned with his physical talent and skills.

In my view, his issue remains mental and role based. Mentally, I actually think he looks much better and much more engaged this year. Role? Still trash, but less trash than the prior trash.

Back to not discussing him and just waiting to see what happens.

Pat strikes me as the kind of player who would out of the blue have a great impact in a major playoff series and you never saw it coming.

Plays great defense and gets a game winning block or hits a game winning 3.

That's basically what he did last night. The problem is he doesn't show up consistently and even with his performance last night, if that's considered a good game for him is that enough to justify his contract and draft position?

If we had known this is the player he would be in year 5, and projects to be going forward, on the night we drafted him, I don't think a single soul other than Guru would have been happy.

Pat has missed a ton of games, was given mins in a very poor role and has been a headcase at times to start the season.

I still think he’s basically in year 3 due to his age and missed games. We will know what we have in him after Vuc and Lavine are traded by end of season.

[GoBlue72391]

For Vuc to stop missing the bunnies, he needs to spend time with Ponce de León.

I think starting Smith would be a HUGE improvement with the starting unit. He just brings so much more balance to the unit. I think that Vuc would actually be better coming off the bench because then he'll go up against the Wendell Carter's of the world on a nightly basis and feast.

No bigger Vuc hater than me, but he's been really good offensively this year so far.

That said, Jalen Smith has been even better offensively, and also better defensively.

You’re actually the biggest Vuc hater on this board, very surprised you praised him for the first time ever lol.

I've gotta be at least in the top 5, but honestly, I've kinda been loving Vuc so far this year and it's very weird and confusing to me. I'd love it even more if we replaced him in the starting lineup with Smith to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his strengths.

[GoBlue72391]

Pat strikes me as the kind of player who would out of the blue have a great impact in a major playoff series and you never saw it coming.

Plays great defense and gets a game winning block or hits a game winning 3.

That's basically what he did last night. The problem is he doesn't show up consistently and even with his performance last night, if that's considered a good game for him is that enough to justify his contract and draft position?

If we had known this is the player he would be in year 5, and projects to be going forward, on the night we drafted him, I don't think a single soul other than Guru would have been happy.

Pat has missed a ton of games, was given mins in a very poor role and has been a headcase at times to start the season.

I still think he’s basically in year 3 due to his age and missed games. We will know what we have in him after Vuc and Lavine are traded by end of season.

A lot of players miss a lot of games and most of them don't get half the chances Pat has gotten. Look at James Wiseman and Marvin Bagley, equally highly drafted players that multiple teams gave up on way sooner than we've given up on Pat.

Hell, we cut Lauri way less slack than Pat and he actually showed stretches of dominant play and produced consistently productive seasons and he's one of the rare guys who I would say most of the excuses people used to defend him were actually true and not just a poor attempt to defend him underachieving. I just don't see what Pat has shown to justify the amount of chances he gets.

The excuses for this guy are endless. It was Demar. Now it's Zach and Vuc. Then it'll be Billy and so on. Good players don't need to have every single notable player on their team traded away in order to be forced into a position to sink of swim. That's honestly crazy that we're considering waiting until our top 3 players are gone to "know what we have."

It's fine if you feel that way, but I just view it as cope at this point. Eventually, we'll get to a point where he's no longer young, none of this will matter, and we realize we're paying Tony Snell $18M per year. There's probably a 90%+ chance that's what will happen.

[DuckIII]

lol ok? Didn’t say he did. Nice try tho

The only thing that confuses me about your posts is the statement that trading AC for Giddey looked like a tank move and then you were surprised when the team said it still wanted to win.

What you preferred is the tank move. Trading for a 23 year old starting PG and no picks is not. One of the only potential downsides of the trade is that he might be good enough, along with the other vets we should trade, to make us forfeit our pick.

It was never a tank move.

I personally see it as a downgrade, making it a tank move. The biggest problem I have is that the FO doesn’t see it that way and believes it to be a move that improves our roster. So now, we got worse but not bad enough to be in play for Flagg or another top prospect and we definitely didn’t get better. I was surprised to learn that they didn’t view a a tank move because why are you trading such a valuable player if you’re trying to win.

Maybe I’m wrong that there isn’t a benefit to the move and Giddey will play great. But I’m confident that he will contribute little to nothing for a winning bulls team, now or in the future.

It’s just semantics. I think a lot of posters here legit don’t understand what the conventional definition for tanking is. Or maybe it’s generational. I’m 51. Maybe tanking is one of those words now that just had a completely different meaning.

[dougthonus]

For Vuc to stop missing the bunnies, he needs to spend time with Ponce de León.

I think starting Smith would be a HUGE improvement with the starting unit. He just brings so much more balance to the unit. I think that Vuc would actually be better coming off the bench because then he'll go up against the Wendell Carter's of the world on a nightly basis and feast.

No bigger Vuc hater than me, but he's been really good offensively this year so far.

That said, Jalen Smith has been even better offensively, and also better defensively.

You’re actually the biggest Vuc hater on this board, very surprised you praised him for the first time ever lol.

TBH, I have little emotionality about any player. I said Vuc sucked when he sucked, and have no problem saying he's good when he's good. Given his 3 year trend, I'm pretty surprised at how well he's doing now, but I hope he keeps it up.

[jnrjr79]

The only thing that confuses me about your posts is the statement that trading AC for Giddey looked like a tank move and then you were surprised when the team said it still wanted to win.

What you preferred is the tank move. Trading for a 23 year old starting PG and no picks is not. One of the only potential downsides of the trade is that he might be good enough, along with the other vets we should trade, to make us forfeit our pick.

It was never a tank move.

I personally see it as a downgrade, making it a tank move. The biggest problem I have is that the FO doesn’t see it that way and believes it to be a move that improves our roster. So now, we got worse but not bad enough to be in play for Flagg or another top prospect and we definitely didn’t get better. I was surprised to learn that they didn’t view a a tank move because why are you trading such a valuable player if you’re trying to win.

Maybe I’m wrong that there isn’t a benefit to the move and Giddey will play great. But I’m confident that he will contribute little to nothing for a winning bulls team, now or in the future.

It’s just semantics. I think a lot of posters here legit don’t understand what the conventional definition for tanking is. Or maybe it’s generational. I’m 51. Maybe tanking is one of those words now that just had a completely different meaning.

I feel like people use the term two ways:

1) Traditional sense - being as bad as possible in order to try to be at the top of the draft,

2) Literally any move where you intentionally take a step back, including minor stuff like Dallas benching guys at the end of the season to keep their pick a couple years back rather than fighting for the play-in.

[drosestruts]

That's basically what he did last night. The problem is he doesn't show up consistently and even with his performance last night, if that's considered a good game for him is that enough to justify his contract and draft position?

If we had known this is the player he would be in year 5, and projects to be going forward, on the night we drafted him, I don't think a single soul other than Guru would have been happy.

Pat has missed a ton of games, was given mins in a very poor role and has been a headcase at times to start the season.

I still think he’s basically in year 3 due to his age and missed games. We will know what we have in him after Vuc and Lavine are traded by end of season.

A lot of players miss a lot of games and most of them don't get half the chances Pat has gotten. Look at James Wiseman and Marvin Bagley, equally highly drafted players that multiple teams gave up on way sooner than we've given up on Pat.

Hell, we cut Lauri way less slack than Pat and he actually showed stretches of dominant play and produced consistently productive seasons and he's one of the rare guys who I would say most of the excuses people used to defend him were actually true and not just a poor attempt to defend him underachieving. I just don't see what Pat has shown to justify the amount of chances he gets.

The excuses for this guy are endless. It was Demar. Now it's Zach and Vuc. Then it'll be Billy and so on. Good players don't need to have every single notable player on their team traded away in order to be forced into a position to sink of swim. That's honestly crazy that we're considering waiting until our top 3 players are gone to "know what we have."

It's fine if you feel that way, but I just view it as cope at this point. Eventually, we'll get to a point where he's no longer young, none of this will matter, and we realize we're paying Tony Snell $18M per year. There's probably a 90%+ chance that's what will happen.

As someone who still holds a lot of hope for Pat there's a lot of truths here.

I would make the argument though that guys like Wiseman and Bagley provided nothing on either end of the court.

Pat - even with his flaws - has shown to be a very good to excellent defender who shoots a good percentage from 3 on a low volume.

Pat is better overall than guys like Bagley, Wiseman, and Snell already.

I do agree Pat has received a lot of chances and been given entitlement minutes on his path to where we are now.

Pats lack of aggression or ability offensively is on Pat. It's not because of DeMar, or Zach, or Vuc. Jaylen Smith can play with those same guys and score 16 points in 11 minutes or whatever he did the other night.

Even more so now with guys like Giddey and Ball that will find you, if the offense stays stagnant it's because of Williams.

I'd also argue that a good defender who's a good low volume 3-point shooter just might be worth ~$18m. Ecspecially when they're so young. If 37 year old PJ Tucker was worth 3/$33. 23 year old Williams getting $18 for 5 years seems pretty right to me.