DeMar was the problem and the Bulls will win more games this year without him.

[sco]

If we are better this season, I will attribute it almost entirely to lonzo ball

You would be wrong. Ball won’t play enough to make that kind of impact.

I mean - I doubt he himself would make that much of an impact, but attributing any positive to losing demar would be equally dumb

I think that we will be better off without Demar this season, but not necessarily better. All else being the same, we have a bunch of young talent to "test" in bigger roles to help the FO think about roster construction going forward. Also, not having Demar will give Zach the chance to up his value even more.

[ShadyMoney]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

[ghostinthepost1]

DEMAR WAS THE PROBLEM.

[Chi town]

DEMAR WAS THE PROBLEM.

We’ve been knowing that!!!

[Dez]

It's 5 games into an 82 game season.

[nanokooshball]

DeMar wasn't the problem per say. We didn't have a true PG like Giddey or Lonzo to run a higher paced offense that Donovan wanted. We had to run the offense through DeRozan out of necessity. Which, unfortunately led us to a plodding slower offense that had little off ball movement.

Now we play w pace and passing and movement is contagious. People don't look at Zach or DeRozan iso and sit there.

[WindyCityBorn]

DeMar wasn't the problem per say. We didn't have a true PG like Giddey or Lonzo to run a higher paced offense that Donovan wanted. We had to run the offense through DeRozan out of necessity. Which, unfortunately led us to a plodding slower offense that had little off ball movement.

Now we play w pace and passing and movement is contagious. People don't look at Zach or DeRozan iso and sit there.

DeRozan would be a terrible fit on this team for this style of play. There is no room DeRozan’s 10 plus mid range shots.

Zach has always been better suited for a run and gun style of play because of his athleticism and high volume 3 point shooting.

[RSP83]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

This.

Apparently the problem was simple and obvious. We need a good starting caliber point guard. Yet AKME decided to duct tape the situation for 2 years with the likes of Pat Bev, Javon Carter, experimenting with Coby and AC at point guard. While holding on to and letting aging assets like DeMar and Vuc depreciating at a rapid rate. That's poor asset management however you want to look at it.

However there wasn't too many options to explore either outside of signing the likes of Pat Bev and Javon Carter. If there's one option we could probably go for was trying to trade with the Wizards for Chris Paul. Knowing we couldn't find a Point Guard it was best to pivot and sell DeMar and Vuc soon.

[RSP83]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

And BJ wasn't even a true point guard. He was a tweener shooter.

Pax before that was similar to BJ.

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

We may not have a pure point guard on this team, but we have two guys who have elite court vision, bball iq, and passing in Lonzo and Giddey. That's a rarity too.

[ShadyMoney]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

And BJ wasn't even a true point guard. He was a tweener shooter.

Pax before that was similar to BJ.

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

We may not have a pure point guard on this team, but we have two guys who have elite court vision, bball iq, and passing in Lonzo and Giddey. That's a rarity too.

Lonzo is out with a wrist injury and I will bet my last dollar on earth he will get this surgery.

[dougthonus]

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

Also worth noting that those guys aren't that important. Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ? Maybe Stephen Curry is that guy, but if so, that's really a sub category of his skills and no where near his primary skills.

What wins in the NBA is not passing PG play, it's scorers who can draw and create massive match up advantages and destroy a defense because they draw so much attention.

You'd probably have to go back to Magic Johnson to find an elite passing vision PG that actually was the key man on championship teams.

The PG is more or less a myth. Teams just have offensive initiators, and most of them are really great scorers that demand double teams. Also, most of those really great scorers are also good passers because if you are talented enough to score through double teams, hit step backs, dribble through multiple guys, and do crazy shots at the basket then you're also almost certainly talented enough to pass to an open dude when 2.5 guys are guarding you.

These basketball skills are all highly correlated, people aren't going to have the exact same strengths, but it's really rare to find someone who is just massively elite at shot creating or passing but then terrible at the other thing. That's why you don't run into to many "true PGs" because the best "true PGs" are probably also even better scorers more times than not (Steph, Doncic, LeBron, Jokic as examples). Michael Jordan probably could have been the best pure PG in the NBA if you wanted to run a thought experiment where you told him he makes 2x the money if he averages 15 assists.

This isn't to say having a more organized offense isn't good or having a guy who specializes in setting people up isn't good, but lacking a PG hasn't been our problem. Lacking a superstar that generates massive gravity has been our problem and still is our problem. Having better ball movement may help keep us around .500, but who cares?

[League Circles]

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

Also worth noting that those guys aren't that important. Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ? Maybe Stephen Curry is that guy, but if so, that's really a sub category of his skills and no where near his primary skills.

What wins in the NBA is not passing PG play, it's scorers who can draw and create massive match up advantages and destroy a defense because they draw so much attention.

You'd probably have to go back to Magic Johnson to find an elite passing vision PG that actually was the key man on championship teams.

The PG is more or less a myth. Teams just have offensive initiators, and most of them are really great scorers that demand double teams. Also, most of those really great scorers are also good passers because if you are talented enough to score through double teams, hit step backs, dribble through multiple guys, and do crazy shots at the basket then you're also almost certainly talented enough to pass to an open dude when 2.5 guys are guarding you.

These basketball skills are all highly correlated, people aren't going to have the exact same strengths, but it's really rare to find someone who is just massively elite at shot creating or passing but then terrible at the other thing. That's why you don't run into to many "true PGs" because the best "true PGs" are probably also even better scorers more times than not (Steph, Doncic, LeBron, Jokic as examples). Michael Jordan probably could have been the best pure PG in the NBA if you wanted to run a thought experiment where you told him he makes 2x the money if he averages 15 assists.

This isn't to say having a more organized offense isn't good or having a guy who specializes in setting people up isn't good, but lacking a PG hasn't been our problem. Lacking a superstar that generates massive gravity has been our problem and still is our problem. Having better ball movement may help keep us around .500, but who cares?

Just quoted for absolute **** truth. I've been trying to say this but not quite as well for decades. It's why Ben Gordon was arguably a better "PG" than Kirk. It's why Rose was a great PG despite not being a natural pass first high level setup man. And yes damn near every title team in the modern era has distinctly lacked a "true" PG. It's not a coincidence. First thing's first - the guy with the ball in his hands should, at least ideally, be a real threat to score the ball. Why? So that he doesn't HAVE TO pass it. Why? Because passing risks turnovers. Doesn't mean a guy like Giddey or Rondo can't be primary ball handler of a good offense, but it's not ideal. Of course, neither is Zach Lavine, and obviously Coby and Ball are questionable vs Giddey too. Ball is less of a threat to score when he has the ball than Giddey. Coby is far from elite as a lead guy, but it's still not 100% clear that he'd be worse than Giddey in that role. Fortunately he can play off ball too.

[sco]

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

Also worth noting that those guys aren't that important. Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ? Maybe Stephen Curry is that guy, but if so, that's really a sub category of his skills and no where near his primary skills.

What wins in the NBA is not passing PG play, it's scorers who can draw and create massive match up advantages and destroy a defense because they draw so much attention.

You'd probably have to go back to Magic Johnson to find an elite passing vision PG that actually was the key man on championship teams.

The PG is more or less a myth. Teams just have offensive initiators, and most of them are really great scorers that demand double teams. Also, most of those really great scorers are also good passers because if you are talented enough to score through double teams, hit step backs, dribble through multiple guys, and do crazy shots at the basket then you're also almost certainly talented enough to pass to an open dude when 2.5 guys are guarding you.

These basketball skills are all highly correlated, people aren't going to have the exact same strengths, but it's really rare to find someone who is just massively elite at shot creating or passing but then terrible at the other thing. That's why you don't run into to many "true PGs" because the best "true PGs" are probably also even better scorers more times than not (Steph, Doncic, LeBron, Jokic as examples). Michael Jordan probably could have been the best pure PG in the NBA if you wanted to run a thought experiment where you told him he makes 2x the money if he averages 15 assists.

This isn't to say having a more organized offense isn't good or having a guy who specializes in setting people up isn't good, but lacking a PG hasn't been our problem. Lacking a superstar that generates massive gravity has been our problem and still is our problem. Having better ball movement may help keep us around .500, but who cares?

Just quoted for absolute **** truth. I've been trying to say this but not quite as well for decades. It's why Ben Gordon was arguably a better "PG" than Kirk. It's why Rose was a great PG despite not being a natural pass first high level setup man. And yes damn near every title team in the modern era has distinctly lacked a "true" PG. It's not a coincidence. First thing's first - the guy with the ball in his hands should, at least ideally, be a real threat to score the ball. Why? So that he doesn't HAVE TO pass it. Why? Because passing risks turnovers. Doesn't mean a guy like Giddey or Rondo can't be primary ball handler of a good offense, but it's not ideal. Of course, neither is Zach Lavine, and obviously Coby and Ball are questionable vs Giddey too. Ball is less of a threat to score when he has the ball than Giddey. Coby is far from elite as a lead guy, but it's still not 100% clear that he'd be worse than Giddey in that role. Fortunately he can play off ball too.

Let me hop on the thread detour with you guys.

Here's how I see it. To be a winning team, IMO, you need:

A #1 option who can score relatively efficiently even when double-teamed.

A #2 option who can score efficiently

2-3 guys who are above average defenders, ideally one who is a great perimeter defender and one paint defender

3-4 guys who are above average 3pt shooters

2 guys who are competent ball handlers

1 guy who is a very good playmaker/distributor

In today's NBA, it sort of doesn't matter how those skills get distributed across the 5 starters, but all of those are not created equal, a true #1 option is extremely rare (i.e. 8-15 in the NBA). IMO Giddey falls into the last bucket exclusively right now, so that puts some pressure on roster construction. If somehow he becomes an above average 3pt shooter too, that helps a lot. If somehow he becomes even an average defender, you have a valuable guy in terms of roster construction.

On the BG vs. Kirk, IMO neither was a great PG here. Gordon was great shooter and #2 option, but his sloppy handles limited him as being more than that. Kirk was an elite 3-D player and a good ball handler, but in contrast to Giddey, he wasn't good at playmaking/passing...he would dribble around until the clock got down to 7 seconds and hand the ball to the guy next to him (who rarely had an open shot).

[dougthonus]

Kirk was an elite 3-D player and a good ball handler

Deeper down the tangential rabbit hole:

The problem with Kirk was really that he had like one season in his career that was true.

He seemed to nosedive really fast. On his career, he was a 37.5% 3 point guy on mediocre volume and only taking primarily easy ones. He was a good defender early in his career, but tailed off pretty quickly. If I were to guess, I'd say he just didn't work hard enough to maintain his athleticism and lost a step earlier than most guys.

[MGB8]

Now I feel like the impact of PG play is being underrated. Lebron is, for all intents and purposes, a PG. He is not a Ben Simmons or Scottie Barnes who lack the handle and movement skills to get anywhere they need to get to set things up. Luka is a point, even if he takes a lot of the shots himself. Kyrie? Rondo?

Giddey scores and looks for himself plenty, but what distinguishes him from, say Coby or Ayo or Caruso (much less DDR, LaVine), is sort of quarterbacking the offense skills - controlling things by various means to lead the team to getting the best shot possible (as opposed to just moving to get yourself the best shot possible and worrying about someone else having a better shot only as a secondary thing). That is aided by, but not limited to, his passing vision and accuracy.

Beyond that, though, if you don’t have a top 10 guy who simply changes the offensive dynamic all by their lonesome (or a crew of all-star level guys like Boston), having strong PG play is critical. That is why NY brought in Brunson. That is why Miami had brought in Lowry (despite Jimmy playing a decent amount of point) and then Rozier as Lowry aged out. Why Pop brought in CP3.

Because if you can’t simply out talent the other team, you need to, at minimum, maximize your talent - and that is what good point play does on the offensive end.

[Chi town]

Now I feel like the impact of PG play is being underrated. Lebron is, for all intents and purposes, a PG. He is not a Ben Simmons or Scottie Barnes who lack the handle and movement skills to get anywhere they need to get to set things up. Luka is a point, even if he takes a lot of the shots himself. Kyrie? Rondo?

Giddey scores and looks for himself plenty, but what distinguishes him from, say Coby or Ayo or Caruso (much less DDR, LaVine), is sort of quarterbacking the offense skills - controlling things by various means to lead the team to getting the best shot possible (as opposed to just moving to get yourself the best shot possible and worrying about someone else having a better shot only as a secondary thing). That is aided by, but not limited to, his passing vision and accuracy.

Beyond that, though, if you don’t have a top 10 guy who simply changes the offensive dynamic all by their lonesome (or a crew of all-star level guys like Boston), having strong PG play is critical. That is why NY brought in Brunson. That is why Miami had brought in Lowry (despite Jimmy playing a decent amount of point) and then Rozier as Lowry aged out. Why Pop brought in CP3.

Because if you can’t simply out talent the other team, you need to, at minimum, maximize your talent - and that is what good point play does on the offensive end.

Yep. Well said. Hopeful Giddey can be that.

[jnrjr79]

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ?

Mavs with Kidd?

[dougthonus]

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ?

Mavs with Kidd?

Yeah, Kidd qualifies, but he was also probably the 5th most important person on that team behind Dirk, Terry, Marion, and Chandler which also still kind of shows the same point.

[mj234eva]

Elite passing point guard with top notch bball IQ is and has always been a rarity.

Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ?

Mavs with Kidd?

Although important to that title run, twilight of his career. And with Kidd it goes to the point being made here. Despite those two attributes, without Dirk they weren't winning ****

[jnrjr79]

Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ?

Mavs with Kidd?

Yeah, Kidd qualifies, but he was also probably the 5th most important person on that team behind Dirk, Terry, Marion, and Chandler which also still kind of shows the same point.

Sure, just answering your question. But yeah, my recollection of that championship was basically that Dirk had an insanely hot run and that was really what did it.