Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1984-85.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 10:30AM EST on Monday, November 4th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

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Layaway Voters
* Bad Gatorade

[Djoker]

How good is a case for Kareem as #1 to you guys? I know it's only one transcendent series but it's by far the most important series given that the Lakers were practically a shoe-in to make the Finals. And it's not like the gap between him and Magic is wide the rest of the year so I feel like the Finals can swing it in his direction. Bird looks like the clear POY until he breaks his hand in a bar fight in the middle of the ECF and then plays subpar after that leaving the door open for others.

After Kareem/Magic/Bird in some order I got MJ and Isiah rounding out my top 5. There is a case for Moses if you value the RS more but his PS was quite subpar.

[penbeast0]

Shockingly, Boston and LA are the two best teams in the league and meet in the NBA finals, with LA winning this one but Bird winning regular season MVP. This is the height of the Magic/Bird rivalry as Kareem and Erving have declined and the league focuses on those two stars. Though Kareem has a strong playoffs.

The clear next tier is Milwaukee and Philadephia again. Sidney Moncrief has Terry Cummings as his other star in a trade for Marques Johnson and Don Nelson is still running the show. In Philly, Charles Barkley joined Moses, Erving, Bobby Jones, Cheeks, and the rest but Andrew Toney's injuries left a hole.

From there it's another strong step down to Denver where Doug Moe and Alex English are still strong, then Houston and Detroit.

League leaders are Bernard King in points, Moses in rebounding, Isiah in assists. Box score compilation stat leaders include some kid named Jordan in Chicago (2nd to Bird in PER, Win Shares, Box Score +/-, and VORP. DPOY goes to Mark Eaton.

1. Bird -- RS is the strongest, typically a bit of a playoff faller but not disastrously so.
2. Magic -- And there it is, the rivalry. Magic not as strong in the RS but won the title.
3. Jordan -- not a great team but amazing individually
4. Moncrief -- better record than Philly with less support than Moses
5. Moses -- I admit to more than a little winning bias when doing these quick cut ratings but it is the point of the season, not just putting up numbers.

[AEnigma]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Isiah Thomas
3. Larry Bird

Again going with the league’s top two playmakers and then Bird. The Pistons fall off offensively with Tripucka’s partial season absence — as I have discussed before, a passer’s “offensive floor” can be capably lowered by just giving them worse offensive teammates — but in the postseason he outplays Bird offensively, and Bird only degrades further in the subsequent two series, so Bird is unable to leverage his superior regular season into a higher finish.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Mark Eaton
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Kevin McHale

Eaton the runaway favourite — even capturing the official award in the age of guard DPoYs — but Hakeem is a worthy second, overseeing an impressive defensive turnaround for the Rockets. Much like with Russell and Wilt, this duo will be safely leading my ballot for the next several seasons.

Third place is trickier. Nance would have been my pick, but a missed postseason on top of twenty missed regular season games cuts him out of consideration. Rick Mahorn misses a good chunk of the season himself. Bucks are still an ensemble defensive effort, and this time they are an underwhelming postseason exit as well. Tree Rollins is a part-time player. Sikma’s Sonics are bad. The Nuggets… probably should be better on that end given their personnel. Buck Williams’ Nets have their third underwhelming first round exit in the past four seasons. That leaves Kevin McHale, who in the postseason officially takes over as the Celtics’ primary big.

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Moses Malone
5. Isiah Thomas
HM: Alex English

So I held my tongue when this was discussed in the 1983 thread, but I hate the reflexive rewarding of Jordan this year. 38 wins. Ultimate postseason bracket loser (lost 3-1 to team which lost 4-0 to team which lost 4-1 to team which lost 4-2 in the Finals). Not voted as a top two guard in all-NBA, and not top five in MVP voting, for those who give weight to either. Not a good defender yet, although for shooting guard standards I would say he was fine enough. Excellent scorer, but not best in the league (King or Dantley or English). Not much of a playmaker yet, albeit he improves as the season goes and takes on that role more in the postseason. Overall, it is the worst full Bulls season of his career. Yeah, he is an excellent rookie. Yeah, he plays respectably well against the Bucks (although anyone who wants to quote postseason plus/minus at me sure as hell better be voting for Karl Malone in 1997), but Terry Cummings is the best scorer in that series, and the Bucks have only been receiving fringe ballot recognition as is.

Okay, what about “impact”. Well, that still leaves him on the fringe, and a large part of why is that Moses, despite a “down-year” (first-team all-NBA, third in MVP, and led team to the conference finals by sweeping the Bucks team so many exalt Jordan for playing closer than expected), posted a historically high +21.7 total on/off (+18.8 offensive) for the 76ers. Right up there with recent Jokic or peak David Robinson. Jordan has no impact case over him, and Jordan was less successful by every marker for success you can use… but Jordan as always manages to fill up the box score, so that means Moses falls behind.

Anyway, Bird’s injury makes Magic the obvious choice for me. I see the thought behind Kareem because of the Finals, but I am much more comfortable with Magic at this point generally, and I do not think the Lakers were so dominant or specifically reliant on Magic and Kareem as a duo that both merit placement above Bird. I could be talked into moving Bird lower because I think you can convincingly push McHale as the top postseason performer for the Celtics in the Finals and semifinals, but no one else was close to Bird in the regular season, and overall I still would characterise Bird as the most important player on a good Finals team.

Alex English makes the conference finals in the west, but Isiah has his peak season. Tough call, although I expect I will end up staying with Isiah. However, to lend English some potential support from others, I would like to highlight this:

1984/85 Postseason Dantley versus English — 28.5/8.5/3.9/0.1/1.4 on 63.9% true shooting (4-6 record)

1984/85 Postseason English versus Dantley — 29.8/7.4/5.8/0.4/0.9 on 63.5% true shooting (6-4 record)

Both were at their peaks, and English was the one facing the tougher defence.

And finally, while a disappointing first round exit on an overall mediocre team removes him from personal consideration, will give a nod to Hakeem, who has an at least equally valid case as Jordan but by virtue of being a defensive big rather than a scoring wing has rarely received acknowledgment as such.

[One_and_Done]

Probably going to be Bird and Magic up top for me again.

[Narigo]

1. Magic Johnson- Was second in the regular season but outplayed Bird in the playoffs which puts in the number 1 spot. Also in my opinion, he was the best offensive player in the league.


2.Larry Bird- Was the best player in the regular season.. but was not as good in the playoffs. Was in a bar fight that injured his hand which probably cost he Celtics the championship

3. Michael Jordan- Took the Bulls to the playoffs in his rookie season. Improved the Buls offense immensely

4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar-

5. Isiah Thomas

[trelos6]

OPOY

1.Magic Johnson. #1 offense in the league (+6.2). Best passer in the league. Damn near the best playmaker in the league. Still managed to score 17.6 pp75 on +9.4 rTS%.

2.Larry Bird. #2 offense in the league (+4.9). Very good passer and playmaker. 25.7 pp75 on +4.2 rTS%.

3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Someone had to be finishing those plays that Magic was initiating. And as a finisher, Kareem is still world class. 23, +8.5. 37 yr old Kareem still putting in work!

DPOY

1.Mark Eaton. 5.6 blocks per game! Plus, Anchored the #1 defense. DPIPM of +5.32.

2.Hakeem Olajuwon. Anchor of the #4 defense. Huge defensive improvement from year prior.

3.Rick Mahorn. Anchor of the #3 defense. Still played 2,113 minutes.

POY

1.Larry Bird. +4.29 OPIPM, +1.2 DPIPM. +5.49 PIPM. 19.96 Wins Added. Bar fights aside, I’m taking Bird this season.

2.Magic Johnson. +4.48 OPIPM, +0.26 DPIPM. +4.75 PIPM. 15.77 Wins Added. The conductor did his thing and drove a fantastic offense.

3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar. +2.93 OPIPM, +1.23 DPIPM. +4.16 PIPM. 13.64 Wins Added. Elite play finishing. Good rim protection.

4.Michael Jordan. Pretty good for a rookie. +4.56 OPIPM, +0.72 DPIPM. +5.29 PIPM. 16.25 Wins Added. Team was still bad, so can’t get him above Kareem. 26.6, +4.9 scoring. Team was +0.8 on offense.

5.Sidney Moncrief. Led the league in SRS! +2.99 OPIPM, +0.35 DPIPM. +3.34 PIPM. 11.46 Wins Added. 20.9, +2.2. Team offense is +2.6. Very good guard defender.

[OhayoKD]

How good is a case for Kareem as #1 to you guys? I know it's only one transcendent series but it's by far the most important series given that the Lakers were practically a shoe-in to make the Finals. And it's not like the gap between him and Magic is wide the rest of the year so I feel like the Finals can swing it in his direction. Bird looks like the clear POY until he breaks his hand in a bar fight in the middle of the ECF and then plays subpar after that leaving the door open for others.

After Kareem/Magic/Bird in some order I got MJ and Isiah rounding out my top 5. There is a case for Moses if you value the RS more but his PS was quite subpar.

2. Magic -- And there it is, the rivalry. Magic not as strong in the RS but won the title.

What's the basis for this?

Magic averages twice as many assists as Bird does and whether you use lebronnygoat's tracking, falco's tracking, my tracking, or even the "assist+" stuff (passer-rating) ben likes, Bird's assists/creations are on the opposite side of the value spectrum to Magic's. Magic is also more efficient.

It should go without saying there are infinite hypothetical per-esque metrics that would have magic as the clear #1 this year in the rs and the playoffs, especially if you don't restrict inputs to basketball reference.

[penbeast0]

How good is a case for Kareem as #1 to you guys? I know it's only one transcendent series but it's by far the most important series given that the Lakers were practically a shoe-in to make the Finals. And it's not like the gap between him and Magic is wide the rest of the year so I feel like the Finals can swing it in his direction. Bird looks like the clear POY until he breaks his hand in a bar fight in the middle of the ECF and then plays subpar after that leaving the door open for others.

After Kareem/Magic/Bird in some order I got MJ and Isiah rounding out my top 5. There is a case for Moses if you value the RS more but his PS was quite subpar.

2. Magic -- And there it is, the rivalry. Magic not as strong in the RS but won the title.

What's the basis for this?

Magic averages twice as many assists as Bird does and whether you use lebronnygoat's tracking, falco's tracking, my tracking, or even the "assist+" stuff (passer-rating) ben likes, Bird's assists/creations are on the opposite side of the value spectrum to Magic's. Magic is also more efficient.

It should go without saying there are infinite hypothetical per-esque metrics that would have magic as the clear #1 this year in the rs and the playoffs, especially if you don't restrict inputs to basketball reference.

And Bird averages 1.5 time the points and rebounds that Magic does. Plus he spreads the floor more and draws more gravity at this point in their careers. He's even probably still the better defender. I think Magic will surpass Bird and have stronger career value but I still remember this as Bird/Magic rather than Magic/Bird.

[kcktiny]

I notice from above that of those that listed their choices for OPOY and DPOY not one choose the DPOY as the POY.

Was Mark Eaton's 1984-85 season the greatest ever by a defensive player (at least since blocked shots were tracked), and as such 1984-85 POY worthy?

Do fans of today even realize just how incredible - what a huge impact - 456 blocked shots in a season is (not to mention all those shots Eaton did not block but that he stopped from going in by his non-shot blocking defense)?

We haven't seen a season where a player blocked as many as even 300 shots in a season since 2003-04 (Theo Ratliff with 307) which is 2 decades ago, and Eaton blocked 50% more shots than that. As a matter of fact a player blocked 300+ shots just once since the 1996-97 season 28 years ago.

Fans of today that were not around or did not watch 80s NBA have never witnessed such a defensive monster as prime Eaton.

The average 2pt FG% in 1984-85 was 49.9%. So at a minimum Eaton was saving on average some 5-6 pts/g with his shot blocking, and if you believe Harvey Pollack (who's research with the 76ers and shot blockers like Wilt Chamberlain and Shawn Bradley) who has stated great shot blockers stop about an additional 50%-100% of shots from going in that they do not block (compared to those they blocked) but do defend, that Eaton may have saved some 8-12 pts/g on average with his shot defense. That year he blocked 5+ shots in a game 48 times, 6+ 38 times, 8+ 20 times.

Not only that Eaton also lead the league in defensive rebounds that year.

I'd say that's worthy of POY consideration.

[OhayoKD]

How good is a case for Kareem as #1 to you guys? I know it's only one transcendent series but it's by far the most important series given that the Lakers were practically a shoe-in to make the Finals. And it's not like the gap between him and Magic is wide the rest of the year so I feel like the Finals can swing it in his direction. Bird looks like the clear POY until he breaks his hand in a bar fight in the middle of the ECF and then plays subpar after that leaving the door open for others.

After Kareem/Magic/Bird in some order I got MJ and Isiah rounding out my top 5. There is a case for Moses if you value the RS more but his PS was quite subpar.

2. Magic -- And there it is, the rivalry. Magic not as strong in the RS but won the title.

What's the basis for this?

Magic averages twice as many assists as Bird does and whether you use lebronnygoat's tracking, falco's tracking, my tracking, or even the "assist+" stuff (passer-rating) ben likes, Bird's assists/creations are on the opposite side of the value spectrum to Magic's. Magic is also more efficient.

It should go without saying there are infinite hypothetical per-esque metrics that would have magic as the clear #1 this year in the rs and the playoffs, especially if you don't restrict inputs to basketball reference.

Appreciate you engaging despite my dry tone these last few threads. I'll go over this in order to most to least disagreement I guess.

Plus he spreads the floor more and draws more gravity at this point in their careers.

Yeah...I disagree completely here. But let's start with the floor spreading. When I went possessoin-by-possession tracking off-ball creation for Bird there was close to nothing, in large part due to the Rockets just leaving him be whenever he was at a spot where his spacing theoretically would stretch their defense:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2393479&start=40

Small sample maybe, but Falco did full games for Bird in 86 and 87 and there was very few examples of someone other his own guy moving.

And now lebronnygoat has done full playoff runs and according to them...same thing(I'll note they're probably more generous with what they consider a creation than I am).

Is there any record of anyone counting how often something was being created off-ball by Bird? Because all I am aware of is isolated clips with no claims made regarding how often this was happening and extrapolation that because he was a 40 percent shooter there must have been great gravity.'

I'd also say a big reason why Bird is looking alot worse in these trackings is because he's seemingly failing to draw extra defenders in the vast majority of them. Passer-rating also isn't a proxy of assist volume. It's a proxy for assist-quality. How is Bird failing on the quality front if he's drawing more defenders?

I don't think there's anything that scares defenses like a speeding Magic Johnson in the 80's. Magic can literally draw 4-5 defenders multiple times a game off that.

And Bird averages 1.5 time the points and rebounds that Magic does.

He does but I think some things are worth highlighting here.

1. The scoring comes at lower effeciency. Unlike with the playmaking where Magic seems to wax Bird on both volume and effeciency.

2. Bird is playing with two sturdier teammates who tend to spend more time closer to the basket. How many of those rebounds is Bird actually the most valuable guy for the board? I still haven't come up with stuff to track for rebounding that would be satisfactorily explanatory for me, but it might be worthwhile to track how frequently rebounds are coming after another player competes with an opposing big.

He's even probably still the better defender.

Sure though that gap probably narrows in the playoffs. I have both as bad defenders who can be made to look nuetral-ish in the right situation at this point though with Magic i'm working more off rep.

I think Magic will surpass Bird and have stronger career value but I still remember this as Bird/Magic rather than Magic/Bird.

I don't know. Bird has one good postseason series this year really. Even if you have bird as better in the regular season, was the gaps o big enough for Bird to hold on to 1 after a 5 point true shooting collapse (and it looks alot worse without Bird's series vs a below average cavs defense) despite his volume dropping?

He also sees a 5 percent tov% spike despite his assist percentage dropping. There's supposed to be a trade-off between volume and effeciency, but bird drops in both in both playmaking and scoring. It's also on a Boston team that is full of players who can handle, self-create, and pass . On those sorts of teams the box-score volume and effeciency often can go up (MJ on the Bulls post-triangle, KD on the Warriors) despite less being done to to break-down or exploit defenses on tape.

But Bird falls off in both categories in terms of volume and efficiency and the scoring drop is massive. Do you have Bird way ahead of Magic in the regular season?

[One_and_Done]

I notice from above that of those that listed their choices for OPOY and DPOY not one choose the DPOY as the POY.

Was Mark Eaton's 1984-85 season the greatest ever by a defensive player (at least since blocked shots were tracked), and as such 1984-85 POY worthy?

Do fans of today even realize just how incredible - what a huge impact - 456 blocked shots in a season is (not to mention all those shots Eaton did not block but that he stopped from going in by his non-shot blocking defense)?

We haven't seen a season where a player blocked as many as even 300 shots in a season since 2003-04 (Theo Ratliff with 307) which is 2 decades ago, and Eaton blocked 50% more shots than that. As a matter of fact a player blocked 300+ shots just once since the 1996-97 season 28 years ago.

Fans of today that were not around or did not watch 80s NBA have never witnessed such a defensive monster as prime Eaton.

The average 2pt FG% in 1984-85 was 49.9%. So at a minimum Eaton was saving on average some 5-6 pts/g with his shot blocking, and if you believe Harvey Pollack (who's research with the 76ers and shot blockers like Wilt Chamberlain and Shawn Bradley) who has stated great shot blockers stop about an additional 50%-100% of shots from going in that they do not block (compared to those they blocked) but do defend, that Eaton may have saved some 8-12 pts/g on average with his shot defense. That year he blocked 5+ shots in a game 48 times, 6+ 38 times, 8+ 20 times.

Not only that Eaton also lead the league in defensive rebounds that year.

I'd say that's worthy of POY consideration.

So Malone & Stockton had a guy who was a POY candidate on their team, and still couldn't get anywhere?

[kcktiny]

So Malone & Stockton had a guy who was a POY candidate on their team, and still couldn't get anywhere?

Such an intelligent comment on your part.

The 7 years both Stockton and Malone played together with Eaton as a starting C (1985-86 to 1991-92) the Jazz had the 6th best regular season W-L record in the league, won 61% of their games. That's a better winning percentage than 21 of the other 26 NBA teams during that time.

Not only that, those 7 seasons Utah was - by far - the best defensive team in the league (102.8 pts/100poss allowed), and allowed the lowest 2pt FG% (46.6%) among all teams. They ranked only 15th as a team in offensive efficiency (106.0 pts/100poss scored), so they won primarily because of their defense.

Just out of curiosity, where did those other 21 teams with lower winning percentages than Utah get to?

Feel free to pass along any other brilliant observations you may have.

[tsherkin]

Feel free to pass along any other brilliant observations you may have.

So, random and inappropriate hostility aside, the RS success was clearly there.

But from 87-93, he has to be asking why they left the first roubd only 3 times and made the WCFs only once with Malone, Stocmton and then a POY-woethy third guy.

[OhayoKD]

Feel free to pass along any other brilliant observations you may have.

So, random and inappropriate hostility aside, the RS success was clearly there.

But from 87-93, he has to be asking why they left the first roubd only 3 times and made the WCFs only once with Malone, Stocmton and then a POY-woethy third guy.

Is top 6 really worth celebrating for a team with not 1, not 2, but 3 top-5 worthy guys?

[tsherkin]

Feel free to pass along any other brilliant observations you may have.

So, random and inappropriate hostility aside, the RS success was clearly there.

But from 87-93, he has to be asking why they left the first roubd only 3 times and made the WCFs only once with Malone, Stocmton and then a POY-woethy third guy.

Is top 6 really worth celebrating for a team with not 1, not 2, but 3 top-5 worthy guys?

No, but I was trying to be diplomatic, hah.

[kcktiny]

So, random and inappropriate hostility aside

It wasn't random, and you don't have to put it aside.

the RS success was clearly there.

Yes it was - an average of 50 wins a season over 7 seasons, and THE best defensive team in the league over all that time. How is that - quote - "not getting anywhere"?

But from 87-93, he has to be asking

So now you are speaking for him? How prescient.

why they left the first roubd only 3 times and made the WCFs only once with Malone, Stocmton and then a POY-woethy third guy.

Is this him asking this? Or you? Do you feel 6th best W-L record in the regular season and a WCFs appearance over 7 seasons as "not getting anywhere"?

Either you win the title or you don't. Right? And those 7 seasons only 4 different teams won a title. Does that mean all the other teams "didn't get anywhere"?

How many teams during that time went to the WCFs?

Those same 7 seasons Portland won the 4th most games, did not win a title. Did they not get anywhere too?

No matter whether you're a 1st round exit or make the Finals every year but lose each time, somebody is still going to say that team "still couldn't get anywhere".

How about instead of responding to the sarcasm of someone else and another's response to that you add to the dicsussion? Was Eaton this year the best defensive season by a player (since blocked shots were tallied). Was he worthy of being POY? He blocked a by far league record 456 shots. Let's debate the impact of that.

Is top 6 really worth celebrating

Why don't you ask a Clippers fan? They didn't win 50 games in a season for 28 straight years (and that doesn't include 6 seasons in San Diego). I bet they'd celebrate four 50+ win seasons over a 7 year stretch.

for a team with not 1, not 2, but 3 top-5 worthy guys?

What did the Thunder win with Durant, Harden, and Westbrook? They won 50+ 2 out of 3 seasons. Did not win a title with three HOFs. Would you say they "still couldn't get anywhere"?

[One_and_Done]

As others picked up on, the point is the PS success looks terrible if the Jazz had three top 5 worthy players. Of course, they only ever had one so they did about as expected. Your posting history suggests you think they had 3 though, which makes no sense at all. They must have been the biggest PS underachievers of all-time if that was true.

[One_and_Done]

So, random and inappropriate hostility aside

It wasn't random, and you don't have to put it aside.

the RS success was clearly there.

Yes it was - an average of 50 wins a season over 7 seasons, and THE best defensive team in the league over all that time. How is that - quote - "not getting anywhere"?

But from 87-93, he has to be asking

So now you are speaking for him? How prescient.

why they left the first roubd only 3 times and made the WCFs only once with Malone, Stocmton and then a POY-woethy third guy.

Is this him asking this? Or you? Do you feel 6th best W-L record in the regular season and a WCFs appearance over 7 seasons as "not getting anywhere"?

Either you win the title or you don't. Right? And those 7 seasons only 4 different teams won a title. Does that mean all the other teams "didn't get anywhere"?

How many teams during that time went to the WCFs?

Those same 7 seasons Portland won the 4th most games, did not win a title. Did they not get anywhere too?

No matter whether you're a 1st round exit or make the Finals every year but lose each time, somebody is still going to say that team "still couldn't get anywhere".

How about instead of responding to the sarcasm of someone else and another's response to that you add to the dicsussion? Was Eaton this year the best defensive season by a player (since blocked shots were tallied). Was he worthy of being POY? He blocked a by far league record 456 shots. Let's debate the impact of that.

Is top 6 really worth celebrating

Why don't you ask a Clippers fan? They didn't win 50 games in a season for 28 straight years (and that doesn't include 6 seasons in San Diego). I bet they'd celebrate four 50+ win seasons over a 7 year stretch.

for a team with not 1, not 2, but 3 top-5 worthy guys?

What did the Thunder win with Durant, Harden, and Westbrook? They won 50+ 2 out of 3 seasons. Did not win a title with three HOFs. Would you say they "still couldn't get anywhere"?

I'm going to call you out on this last comment particularly: the Thunder got better every year from 10-12. They won 50, 55, and 58 (pace adjusted for the shortened season). When they made the finals in 2012 those 3 guys were 22-23 years old. When Stockton was 23 he was still coming off the bench for a 44 win team. When Eaton was 23 he was still 3 years away from being a back up on a 30 win team.

[kcktiny]

As others picked up on, the point is the PS success

Oh I get it. Now that others have mentioned the playoffs you have decided that's what you meant. Gotcha.

PS success looks terrible if the Jazz had three top 5 worthy players

Oh I get it. Now you've gone from "still couldn't get anywhere" to they're "terrible".

I only said Eaton should be considered for POY in 1984-85. But let's go with your supposition. These 7 seasons Utah made the playoffs every year. Only 5 other teams made the playoffs those same 7 seasons. The Jazz won 24 playoff games. Only 5 other teams won more. 18 other teams that made the playoffs during that time won less games. Were those teams worse than terrible?

Just out of curiosity, were you alive in the 80s and early 90s? Ever see a Utah Jazz playoff game during that time (1985-86 to 1991-92)? Have you actually ever seen Mark Eaton play?

You know what? I think you don't even know who Mark Eaton was, and haven't even seen him play. That's why you feel the need to belittle and minimize one of the greatest defensive players the game has ever seen.

If you think I'm wrong, then let's discuss Eaton's consideration for POY in 1984-85.

I'm going to call you out on this last comment particularly: the Thunder got better every year from 10-12. They won 50, 55, and 58

Wow throwing down the gauntlet. Ok.

In the span of 1985-86 to 1991-92 the Jazz had a 3 year stretch of 55, 54, and 55 wins. That's 1 more win than that Thunder 3 year run. Who cares how old they were? That means nothing.

Did the Thunder win a title? Still couldn't get anywhere? Terrible? Hey, sounds just like you.

The Jazz too got better pretty much every year 1985-86 to 1991-92. So what? How you going to spin this?