PG: Knicks vs. Pistons - Walk in the Park

[Guano]

Something I noticed in the games that KAT struggled is that he was given the ball in faceup opportunities and he's not really great at that. I.e. he's not a player who you can dump to and have him try to create like Randle and they tried to put him in that role because that's what they're accustomed to. He can get rolling downhill but acting as a secondary hub from that action is not a strength for him. Now they're putting him in different positions. More back to the basket inside-out hubs (hence my comp with Pat the other day) and opportunities from the perimeter where the rest of the group stays in motion so he has immediate targets. They're using him differently and it's paying off.

So here's something for discussion fodder. Maybe, just mayyyybe, at least some of the people who liked the KAT trade or saw a glass half full scenario "know ball."

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

Nah, this propagates the false "concern" side of this trade, acting like his production on that side of the court was never really in question, or "as worrisome".

Many that "know ball" were actively hammering the idea of him - or THEIR idea of him - offensively. He was soft, he couldn't post, he was not a good passer, and he couldn't create, while at the same time ignoring the fact that KAT is literally the 7th most efficient scoring basketball player in the history of the NBA by TS%, and 3rd best ever amongst guys that are primary/secondary scorers (not DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, etc).

The all-time TS% list of guys that get 20ppg literally goes

1) Jokic
2) Steph
3) KAT
4) Artis Gilmore
5) Durant

I fully understand concern, but let's not pretend that there was not a whole lot of ignorance/dismissal/disrespect for this man's offensive game. This is an all time great in terms of offensive productive, not a guy who can be compared to all-star contemporaries.

Ofc there are outliers to every side. It would be absurd to dismiss that while it's also absurd to group us that have concerns that his offensive prowess will not make up for his defensive liabilities. It's weak to lump all of us who were skeptical of the trade in the same extreme. But if you want to focus on the few extremist do you. Feels good to be right. Peacock away.

There are valid concerns about his offense not making up for his defense. For as great as he is offensively, minny had to trade for gogurt and ultimately dumped kat for salary. So concerns aren't fabricated. But so far so good.

[F N 11]

Gangnem on road

Read on Twitter

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[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

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[F N 11]

Kat was shoving guys from early. Someone else also said he was loud.

Read on Twitter

?s=46

[Besart19]

No Knick right now in the top 10 for minutes per game. Thibs is a maniac but he's doing a good job balancing minutes right now considering we are short handed.

Short handed but with 8 players able and deserving to play all over 28 mins and thats where comes the luxury to play all of them important minutes without going above 35 per each of them

[Context]

Kat was shoving guys from early. Someone else also said he was loud.

Read on Twitter

?s=46

feels good to read this

[F N 11]

Read on Twitter

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[3toheadmelo]

Something I noticed in the games that KAT struggled is that he was given the ball in faceup opportunities and he's not really great at that. I.e. he's not a player who you can dump to and have him try to create like Randle and they tried to put him in that role because that's what they're accustomed to. He can get rolling downhill but acting as a secondary hub from that action is not a strength for him. Now they're putting him in different positions. More back to the basket inside-out hubs (hence my comp with Pat the other day) and opportunities from the perimeter where the rest of the group stays in motion so he has immediate targets. They're using him differently and it's paying off.

So here's something for discussion fodder. Maybe, just mayyyybe, at least some of the people who liked the KAT trade or saw a glass half full scenario "know ball."

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

Nah, this propagates the false "concern" side of this trade, acting like his production on that side of the court was never really in question, or "as worrisome".

Many that "know ball" were actively hammering the idea of him - or THEIR idea of him - offensively. He was soft, he couldn't post, he was not a good passer, and he couldn't create, while at the same time ignoring the fact that KAT is literally the 7th most efficient scoring basketball player in the history of the NBA by TS%, and 3rd best ever amongst guys that are primary/secondary scorers (not DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, etc).

The all-time TS% list of guys that get 20ppg literally goes

1) Jokic
2) Steph
3) KAT
4) Artis Gilmore
5) Durant

I fully understand the defensive concern, but let's not pretend that there was not a whole lot of ignorance/dismissal/disrespect for this man's offensive game. This is an all time great in terms of offensive production, not a guy who can be compared to all-star contemporaries.

Nah, you're also ignoring that he shot historic bad bricks in the WCF against Dallas because he was just chucking up 3's and playing soft on both ends. Our takes were valid. I'm not here to schit on KAT after he played really great these past 2 games, but to act like there wasn't legit concerns about him is wild.

[RHODEY]

Not even a ton of offense just a guy who can do more than dunk lol

And yes Kessler, Richards and Poetl all can provide that and at least 2 of those 3 are likely available.

Kesslers is about on Mitch's level and Ainge would want more than wed be willing to give.
Richards....nah he very meh to me .
Poetl ...sorry cant get excited .

You forget what Mitch did to the Cavs front line in th e playoffs or what he did to Embiid, ...thats really all we need from him and those dude you listed cant do that.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Asking Mitch to score from range is like expecting Dennis Rodman to do that. No, he's an elite roleplayer that fits perfectly in that role for us.

Injury proneness is off the charts though that's the biggest thing. Also FTs kill us at end of games. When you factor all that in , all 3 options better.

Maybe better for regular seasons wins..but playoffs nah uh.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Defense is now 17th, the Celtics game obviously had us 30th But we're trending in the right direction. The offense is 3rd which is crazy considering these guys are just figuring out how to play with each other.

If they stay around 3rd on O to have a realistic shot at the chip where does the D need to rank?

If you want to win a title you need to be top 10 in both, there's some outliers but generally you want a top 10 offense and defense, the Warriors and Nuggets had 1 and not the other but both turned up the defense


23-24 Celtics 1 ORTG 3 DRTG
22-23 Nuggets 5 ORTG 15 DRTG
21-22 Warriors 17 ORTG 1 DRTG
20-21 Bucks 6 ORTG 10 DRTG
19-20 Lakers 11 ORTG 3 DRTG
18-19 Raptors 5 for both
17-18 Warriors 3 ORTG 11 DRTG
16-17 Warriors 1 ORTG 2 DRTG
15-16 Cavs 3 ORTG 10 DRTG
14-15 Warriors 2 ORTG 1 DRTG
13-14 Spurs 7 ORTG 3 DRTG
12-13 Heat 2 ORTG 9 DRTG
11-12 Heat 8 ORTG 4 DRTG
10-11 Mavs 8 for both


If you're top 3 in both you're a historically great team, if you're top 5 in both you're a great team, and top 10 in both means you're a likely contender (favorite) who can win if things break right. I think we're going to be top 8 in DRTG, that Celtics game was an extreme outlier, and like ChaHell pointed out our net rating even with that game in mind is +7.4 which is 5th. If you removed the Celtics game we have a 107.3 DRTG and are +15.1

I don't think the Cavs are real either, they play at a fast pace which is great for the regular season but once the game slows down in the playoffs and all that cute **** stops.

[Clyde_Style]

Gangnem on road

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Kolek pulls that hood up and he's rocking the Unabomber look

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

Nah, this propagates the false "concern" side of this trade, acting like his production on that side of the court was never really in question, or "as worrisome".

Many that "know ball" were actively hammering the idea of him - or THEIR idea of him - offensively. He was soft, he couldn't post, he was not a good passer, and he couldn't create, while at the same time ignoring the fact that KAT is literally the 7th most efficient scoring basketball player in the history of the NBA by TS%, and 3rd best ever amongst guys that are primary/secondary scorers (not DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, etc).

The all-time TS% list of guys that get 20ppg literally goes

1) Jokic
2) Steph
3) KAT
4) Artis Gilmore
5) Durant

I fully understand the defensive concern, but let's not pretend that there was not a whole lot of ignorance/dismissal/disrespect for this man's offensive game. This is an all time great in terms of offensive production, not a guy who can be compared to all-star contemporaries.

Nah, you're also ignoring that he shot historic bad bricks in the WCF against Dallas because he was just chucking up 3's and playing soft on both ends. Our takes were valid. I'm not here to schit on KAT after he played really great these past 2 games, but to act like there wasn't legit concerns about him is wild.

KAT played 2 games before the playoffs, he had missed a month with a torn meniscus and came back early. The takes on him really aren't valid, because with those things in mind he helped his team get to the WCF, he had a bad series after playing great in the previous rounds. sham has flat out stopped posting because we won a game, there was nothing valid about his criticisms because we all know it was based around him not wanting Mitch to lose his starting spot. His complaints and whining in particular were weird because Mitch is still on the team.

His team with him as the second best player has made it further in a tougher conference than we have been. For all the talk of his defense, he has the best net rating on the team, and while he's not a rim protector if your goal is to have a switching offense he's much better staying with guards/wings than either Ihart or Mitch were.

[Guano]

Defense is now 17th, the Celtics game obviously had us 30th But we're trending in the right direction. The offense is 3rd which is crazy considering these guys are just figuring out how to play with each other.

If they stay around 3rd on O to have a realistic shot at the chip where does the D need to rank?

If you want to win a title you need to be top 10 in both, there's some outliers but generally you want a top 10 offense and defense, the Warriors and Nuggets had 1 and not the other but both turned up the defense


23-24 Celtics 1 ORTG 3 DRTG
22-23 Nuggets 5 ORTG 15 DRTG
21-22 Warriors 17 ORTG 1 DRTG
20-21 Bucks 6 ORTG 10 DRTG
19-20 Lakers 11 ORTG 3 DRTG
18-19 Raptors 5 for both
17-18 Warriors 3 ORTG 11 DRTG
16-17 Warriors 1 ORTG 2 DRTG
15-16 Cavs 3 ORTG 10 DRTG
14-15 Warriors 2 ORTG 1 DRTG
13-14 Spurs 7 ORTG 3 DRTG
12-13 Heat 2 ORTG 9 DRTG
11-12 Heat 8 ORTG 4 DRTG
10-11 Mavs 8 for both


If you're top 3 in both you're a historically great team, if you're top 5 in both you're a great team, and top 10 in both means you're a likely contender (favorite) who can win if things break right. I think we're going to be top 8 in DRTG, that Celtics game was an extreme outlier, and like ChaHell pointed out our net rating even with that game in mind is +7.4 which is 5th. If you removed the Celtics game we have a 107.3 DRTG and are +15.1

I don't think the Cavs are real either, they play at a fast pace which is great for the regular season but once the game slows down in the playoffs and all that cute **** stops.

Super small sample size but I'm not complaining that they're favorable so early. they should improve on both sides. While kats offensive numbers aren't sustainable others should pick up when he falls back to earth. Defense should hold up, too. If key players can stay healthy.

Nice to see the Boston Detroit game pretty much cancel each other out.

Also its wild that the 21-22 GSW won on defense.

[robillionaire]

not to kill the vibe - but those pistons look like classic knicks teams.

that said them doing what they're supposed to do shouldn't be discredited. this team is dope as hell and really fun to watch

man... being bad for a million years and then have to watch guys like THJ, Beasley and Harris chucking up shots.. seemed very familiar. darkest times.

Straight up felt nostalgic watching the pistons play. Someone is the gamethread brought up the Melo team the year before we drafted kp and it was so accurate. Team with talent that plays terrible basketball.

It's easy to take the knicks for granted cause we've had some success. But damn we were where the pistons are at for a long time. Feels nice to be rooting for a solid team now.

They even have THJ himself

[KnixinSix]

Kesslers is about on Mitch's level and Ainge would want more than wed be willing to give.
Richards....nah he very meh to me .
Poetl ...sorry cant get excited .

You forget what Mitch did to the Cavs front line in th e playoffs or what he did to Embiid, ...thats really all we need from him and those dude you listed cant do that.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Asking Mitch to score from range is like expecting Dennis Rodman to do that. No, he's an elite roleplayer that fits perfectly in that role for us.

Injury proneness is off the charts though that's the biggest thing. Also FTs kill us at end of games. When you factor all that in , all 3 options better.

Maybe better for regular seasons wins..but playoffs nah uh.

Poetl is no slouch defensively and offers viable offense as well. Kessler too

[Capn'O]

Something I noticed in the games that KAT struggled is that he was given the ball in faceup opportunities and he's not really great at that. I.e. he's not a player who you can dump to and have him try to create like Randle and they tried to put him in that role because that's what they're accustomed to. He can get rolling downhill but acting as a secondary hub from that action is not a strength for him. Now they're putting him in different positions. More back to the basket inside-out hubs (hence my comp with Pat the other day) and opportunities from the perimeter where the rest of the group stays in motion so he has immediate targets. They're using him differently and it's paying off.

So here's something for discussion fodder. Maybe, just mayyyybe, at least some of the people who liked the KAT trade or saw a glass half full scenario "know ball."

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

I'm not sure why you're feeling like you caught shrapnel here because I don't remember you coming personally at the intelligence of posters who were positive about the trade. We were in agreement that if KAT is the 5 we're going to need a different defensive approach from last season. Between us, I was more optimistic that between Mikal and OG we could come up with something where we attacked passing lanes and relied less on drop coverage and that's what we're seeing so far, especially with Precious and Mitch out. Integrating those two will be critical.

There are concerns vis a vis becoming an elite contender and the ones you mentioned are ones I've addressed, and not all considered as resolved. But I already feel comfortable saying we're gonna have a fun season near the top of the conference barring acts of God and that the exact ways I stated the offense might come together are already coming to fruition with some positive signs developing on defense. And, with KAT actually being a little more physical than I expected. We're clearly not going back to play-in level or below with this move.

So, don't know ball? I took it personally.

[spree2kawhi]

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

Nah, this propagates the false "concern" side of this trade, acting like his production on that side of the court was never really in question, or "as worrisome".

Many that "know ball" were actively hammering the idea of him - or THEIR idea of him - offensively. He was soft, he couldn't post, he was not a good passer, and he couldn't create, while at the same time ignoring the fact that KAT is literally the 7th most efficient scoring basketball player in the history of the NBA by TS%, and 3rd best ever amongst guys that are primary/secondary scorers (not DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, etc).

The all-time TS% list of guys that get 20ppg literally goes

1) Jokic
2) Steph
3) KAT
4) Artis Gilmore
5) Durant

I fully understand the defensive concern, but let's not pretend that there was not a whole lot of ignorance/dismissal/disrespect for this man's offensive game. This is an all time great in terms of offensive production, not a guy who can be compared to all-star contemporaries.

Nah, you're also ignoring that he shot historic bad bricks in the WCF against Dallas because he was just chucking up 3's and playing soft on both ends. Our takes were valid. I'm not here to schit on KAT after he played really great these past 2 games, but to act like there wasn't legit concerns about him is wild.

It isn’t wild at all. Just because some small group of haters only seemed to have some sub-par games as sample-size of games they’ve ever seen Towns play, doesn’t make this “logic”. The takes were always bs and there was never any legit concern. The guy has been the exact same, reliable player since his rookie year. Efficient, versatile, smart. He is currently averaging his exact career averages. The fact that y’all ignored the Denver and Phoenix series always revealed the emotionally driven agenda. Now if you could please embrace what we have instead of still pouting and spinning narrative…

[MrDollarBills]

Kat was shoving guys from early. Someone else also said he was loud.

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This to me says two things:

1) This team has an excellent locker room and culture established by Brunson and Thibs' leadership

2) KAT feels comfortable here with his team and coaches to become more vocal as a leader.

[Guano]

Something I noticed in the games that KAT struggled is that he was given the ball in faceup opportunities and he's not really great at that. I.e. he's not a player who you can dump to and have him try to create like Randle and they tried to put him in that role because that's what they're accustomed to. He can get rolling downhill but acting as a secondary hub from that action is not a strength for him. Now they're putting him in different positions. More back to the basket inside-out hubs (hence my comp with Pat the other day) and opportunities from the perimeter where the rest of the group stays in motion so he has immediate targets. They're using him differently and it's paying off.

So here's something for discussion fodder. Maybe, just mayyyybe, at least some of the people who liked the KAT trade or saw a glass half full scenario "know ball."

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

I'm not sure why you're feeling like you caught shrapnel here because I don't remember you coming personally at the intelligence of posters who were positive about the trade. We were in agreement that if KAT is the 5 we're going to need a different defensive approach from last season. Between us, I was more optimistic that between Mikal and OG we could come up with something where we attacked passing lanes and relied less on drop coverage and that's what we're seeing so far, especially with Precious and Mitch out. Integrating those two will be critical.

There are concerns vis a vis becoming an elite contender and the ones you mentioned are ones I've addressed, and not all considered as resolved. But I already feel comfortable saying we're gonna have a fun season near the top of the conference barring acts of God and that the exact ways I stated the offense might come together are already coming to fruition with some positive signs developing on defense. And, with KAT actually being a little more physical than I expected. We're clearly not going back to play-in level or below with this move.

So, don't know ball? I took it personally.

My bad.
I prolly took it personal cause I was on the skeptical side of the trade and have a dash of insecurity coupled with the unfortunate habit of making things about me when they're not.

Anyways I fully agree with you here. And thats where i try to stay grounded. I have a hard time sometimes cause i fear that our ceiling is capped just below champignon level. But the reality is this is a great team. Went better than what we are you used to.

[3toheadmelo]

Nah, this propagates the false "concern" side of this trade, acting like his production on that side of the court was never really in question, or "as worrisome".

Many that "know ball" were actively hammering the idea of him - or THEIR idea of him - offensively. He was soft, he couldn't post, he was not a good passer, and he couldn't create, while at the same time ignoring the fact that KAT is literally the 7th most efficient scoring basketball player in the history of the NBA by TS%, and 3rd best ever amongst guys that are primary/secondary scorers (not DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, etc).

The all-time TS% list of guys that get 20ppg literally goes

1) Jokic
2) Steph
3) KAT
4) Artis Gilmore
5) Durant

I fully understand the defensive concern, but let's not pretend that there was not a whole lot of ignorance/dismissal/disrespect for this man's offensive game. This is an all time great in terms of offensive production, not a guy who can be compared to all-star contemporaries.

Nah, you're also ignoring that he shot historic bad bricks in the WCF against Dallas because he was just chucking up 3's and playing soft on both ends. Our takes were valid. I'm not here to schit on KAT after he played really great these past 2 games, but to act like there wasn't legit concerns about him is wild.

KAT played 2 games before the playoffs, he had missed a month with a torn meniscus and came back early. The takes on him really aren't valid, because with those things in mind he helped his team get to the WCF, he had a bad series after playing great in the previous rounds. sham has flat out stopped posting because we won a game, there was nothing valid about his criticisms because we all know it was based around him not wanting Mitch to lose his starting spot. His complaints and whining in particular were weird because Mitch is still on the team.

His team with him as the second best player has made it further in a tougher conference than we have been. For all the talk of his defense, he has the best net rating on the team, and while he's not a rim protector if your goal is to have a switching offense he's much better staying with guards/wings than either Ihart or Mitch were.

I don't wanna beat a dead horse and derail the thread but I posted the numbers a bunch of times. The Timberwolves were actually better with him OFF the court than on in the playoffs. Naz reid outplayed him a lot of times which resulted in KAT getting benched. Either way that's in the past and I like how he's looked on both ends the last 2 games.

Tbf in regards to sham I think he actually has some personal stuff going on.