PG: Knicks vs. Pistons - Walk in the Park

[Capn'O]

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

I'm not sure why you're feeling like you caught shrapnel here because I don't remember you coming personally at the intelligence of posters who were positive about the trade. We were in agreement that if KAT is the 5 we're going to need a different defensive approach from last season. Between us, I was more optimistic that between Mikal and OG we could come up with something where we attacked passing lanes and relied less on drop coverage and that's what we're seeing so far, especially with Precious and Mitch out. Integrating those two will be critical.

There are concerns vis a vis becoming an elite contender and the ones you mentioned are ones I've addressed, and not all considered as resolved. But I already feel comfortable saying we're gonna have a fun season near the top of the conference barring acts of God and that the exact ways I stated the offense might come together are already coming to fruition with some positive signs developing on defense. And, with KAT actually being a little more physical than I expected. We're clearly not going back to play-in level or below with this move.

So, don't know ball? I took it personally.

My bad.
I prolly took it personal cause I was on the skeptical side of the trade and have a dash of insecurity coupled with the unfortunate habit of making things about me when they're not.

Anyways I fully agree with you here. And thats where i try to stay grounded. I have a hard time sometimes cause i fear that our ceiling is capped just below champignon level. But the reality is this is a great team. Went better than what we are you used to.

No worries!

There's still a healthy debate regarding opportunity cost and how good the defense can be to be had. But I think the "trade is a disaster and we're much worse now" train has left the station. We're gonna have a good team to watch.

Also, as a mushroom enthusiast, I love the "just below champignon level" typo! I'd guarantee chanterelle level with a crack at matsutake as the gold standard.

[JayTWill]

Have any reporters asked Thibs why he hasn't played Dadiet in the normal rotation after game 1? I was shocked when he was brought into the game against the Celtics in the first half but I assumed maybe Thibs was willing to expand the rotation with the injuries to Mitch and Precious. What could have happened in that 1 game that made him go back to 7.5, 8 man rotation?

He also brought Huk in 1 game instead of Sims but went back to Sims the next game. I'm curious what his reasoning is.

[RHODEY]

Injury proneness is off the charts though that's the biggest thing. Also FTs kill us at end of games. When you factor all that in , all 3 options better.

Maybe better for regular seasons wins..but playoffs nah uh.

Poetl is no slouch defensively and offers viable offense as well. Kessler too

Neither are proven in the playoffs versus elite front lines. Mitch is. Kessler could maybe do it after gets some coaching under Thibs , Poetl would get shredded IMO. You seem to think what Mitch gives us while healthy is easily replaceable....it isnt imo.

[Wildcat]

Have any reporters asked Thibs why he hasn't played Dadiet in the normal rotation after game 1? I was shocked when he was brought into the game against the Celtics in the first half but I assumed maybe Thibs was willing to expand the rotation with the injuries to Mitch and Precious. What could have happened in that 1 game that made him go back to 7.5, 8 man rotation?

He also brought Huk in 1 game instead of Sims but went back to Sims the next game. I'm curious what his reasoning is.

Not that I know of, but regarding Huk, I strongly suspect he wasn't impressive enough to overtake Sims just based on that stat line alone. He needed a solid 5/5 game. Just something justifiable. Plus someone brought up an interesting thought that there's something going on in practice that we're not seeing. So Huk is probably not as ready to take Sims minutes as we all hope.

[Guano]

I'm not sure why you're feeling like you caught shrapnel here because I don't remember you coming personally at the intelligence of posters who were positive about the trade. We were in agreement that if KAT is the 5 we're going to need a different defensive approach from last season. Between us, I was more optimistic that between Mikal and OG we could come up with something where we attacked passing lanes and relied less on drop coverage and that's what we're seeing so far, especially with Precious and Mitch out. Integrating those two will be critical.

There are concerns vis a vis becoming an elite contender and the ones you mentioned are ones I've addressed, and not all considered as resolved. But I already feel comfortable saying we're gonna have a fun season near the top of the conference barring acts of God and that the exact ways I stated the offense might come together are already coming to fruition with some positive signs developing on defense. And, with KAT actually being a little more physical than I expected. We're clearly not going back to play-in level or below with this move.

So, don't know ball? I took it personally.

My bad.
I prolly took it personal cause I was on the skeptical side of the trade and have a dash of insecurity coupled with the unfortunate habit of making things about me when they're not.

Anyways I fully agree with you here. And thats where i try to stay grounded. I have a hard time sometimes cause i fear that our ceiling is capped just below champignon level. But the reality is this is a great team. Went better than what we are you used to.

No worries!

There's still a healthy debate regarding opportunity cost and how good the defense can be to be had. But I think the "trade is a disaster and we're much worse now" train has left the station. We're gonna have a good team to watch.

Also, as a mushroom enthusiast, I love the "just below champignon level" typo! I'd guarantee chanterelle level with a crack at matsutake as the gold standard.

that's an on brand typo

I honestly don't think it was ever going to be a disaster. though mikal had me all sorts of fcked up with those videos of his form. we are going to be a fun team to watch for awhile. health is also going to be key. arriving at the playoffs with a healthy core needs to happen.

[KnixinSix]

Maybe better for regular seasons wins..but playoffs nah uh.

Poetl is no slouch defensively and offers viable offense as well. Kessler too

Neither are proven in the playoffs versus elite front lines. Mitch is. Kessler could maybe do it after gets some coaching under This , Poele would get shredded IMO. You seem to think what Mitch gives us while healthy is easily replaceable....it isnt imo.

No Im not. In fact if he was more reliable healthwise, I love to keep him as a guy who comes in and spells KAT and especially with a 25 point lead basically shuts down the paint for us.

[SelbyCobra]

I'll bite.
You're ignoring the side of the court were the others who "know ball" were most concerned with kat. His offensive prowess wasn't as worrisome. His penchant for stupid offensive fouls - which he hasn't really cleaned up was also a minor concern. They were a problem against the cavs.

But the biggest issue is his defense. Which imo, hasn't been great or bad. It's been average. So even when the offense comes down, cause his numbers aren't sustainable, it looks like this might be worth it.
His rebounding has also been really surprising. He is a great rebounder. Someone in the gamethread pointed out he might be too focused on boards which is preventing him from challenging shoots. Idk if that's the case. His interrior defense seems to be adequate. It's when he is in space he looks cumbersome and frankly lost in space at times. Either way, he has been better than advertised on defense. And his offense is so good that it makes up for it - for now. Hope both continue to improve.

Nah, this propagates the false "concern" side of this trade, acting like his production on that side of the court was never really in question, or "as worrisome".

Many that "know ball" were actively hammering the idea of him - or THEIR idea of him - offensively. He was soft, he couldn't post, he was not a good passer, and he couldn't create, while at the same time ignoring the fact that KAT is literally the 7th most efficient scoring basketball player in the history of the NBA by TS%, and 3rd best ever amongst guys that are primary/secondary scorers (not DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, etc).

The all-time TS% list of guys that get 20ppg literally goes

1) Jokic
2) Steph
3) KAT
4) Artis Gilmore
5) Durant

I fully understand concern, but let's not pretend that there was not a whole lot of ignorance/dismissal/disrespect for this man's offensive game. This is an all time great in terms of offensive productive, not a guy who can be compared to all-star contemporaries.

Ofc there are outliers to every side. It would be absurd to dismiss that while it's also absurd to group us that have concerns that his offensive prowess will not make up for his defensive liabilities. It's weak to lump all of us who were skeptical of the trade in the same extreme. But if you want to focus on the few extremist do you. Feels good to be right. Peacock away.

There are valid concerns about his offense not making up for his defense. For as great as he is offensively, minny had to trade for gogurt and ultimately dumped kat for salary. So concerns aren't fabricated. But so far so good.

I mean, I agree with most of what you're saying about KAT's concerns.

I'm not one to peacock about this kind of stuff, if I gave that impression, then honestly - my bad. But there's nothing to peacock about at this point. For me the trade absolutely came with big question marks about his defense, but also how his OFFENSE would play out because of KAT's lack of focus/consistency/mental in big spots, his durability, his corniness/goofiness in the NY market, the permanence of his contract if things don't work out, and his ability to be a go-to scorer when needed. The things that were never in question were the insane efficiency of his multi-level game, and his unique ability to shoot the three as a true 7-foot front court player, but when people were upset about the deal there was almost zero acknowledgement and/or credit given to the those unquestionable facts - it was all just swept under the same soft/non-alpha/playoff clown/poor defender rug.

That's what made me reply to your post initially - the idea that people who disliked/hated the trade knew he would show what he has through these first 5 games. I usually try to just watch on the sidelines, but there was so much flat-out wrong and very loud negativity for weeks after the deal about what KAT would bring to the table, and you pulled me in when you insinuated that the majority or the loudest of the doubters were rational and/or logical about his offense.

[stuporman]

Player A 'historically bad' shooting percentages in the one series:
37.9/24.2/88.9
Career playoff: 46.8/35.0/82.4

Player B career playoff percentages:
34.4/28.3/75.6
Best series: 41.1/28.1/71.4

[GettinitDone]

Missed in my **** stream was KAT muscling out Beef Stew of all people... I swear Stew's eyes were blood red and had KAT as his target from then on he kept pushing KAT to box out whenever shots were up, to his credit KAT never got reactive which frustrated Stew even more, great, we need toughness and KAT stepped up to the challenge

2nd straight game with 30+ assists, let's lead the L in assists !!

Up next is Houston, like Orlando they got lots of young players, and like the Magic not very respectful, led by Dillon who will want someone to bully he started **** with Wemby maybe he wants to mess with JB or KAT

Read on Twitter

lol

[Guano]

Nah, this propagates the false "concern" side of this trade, acting like his production on that side of the court was never really in question, or "as worrisome".

Many that "know ball" were actively hammering the idea of him - or THEIR idea of him - offensively. He was soft, he couldn't post, he was not a good passer, and he couldn't create, while at the same time ignoring the fact that KAT is literally the 7th most efficient scoring basketball player in the history of the NBA by TS%, and 3rd best ever amongst guys that are primary/secondary scorers (not DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, etc).

The all-time TS% list of guys that get 20ppg literally goes

1) Jokic
2) Steph
3) KAT
4) Artis Gilmore
5) Durant

I fully understand concern, but let's not pretend that there was not a whole lot of ignorance/dismissal/disrespect for this man's offensive game. This is an all time great in terms of offensive productive, not a guy who can be compared to all-star contemporaries.

Ofc there are outliers to every side. It would be absurd to dismiss that while it's also absurd to group us that have concerns that his offensive prowess will not make up for his defensive liabilities. It's weak to lump all of us who were skeptical of the trade in the same extreme. But if you want to focus on the few extremist do you. Feels good to be right. Peacock away.

There are valid concerns about his offense not making up for his defense. For as great as he is offensively, minny had to trade for gogurt and ultimately dumped kat for salary. So concerns aren't fabricated. But so far so good.

I mean, I agree with most of what you're saying about KAT's concerns.

I'm not one to peacock about this kind of stuff, if I gave that impression, then honestly - my bad. But there's nothing to peacock about at this point. For me the trade absolutely came with big question marks about his defense, but also how his OFFENSE would play out because of KAT's lack of focus/consistency/mental in big spots, his durability, his corniness/goofiness in the NY market, the permanence of his contract if things don't work out, and his ability to be a go-to scorer when needed. The things that were never in question were the insane efficiency of his multi-level game, and his unique ability to shoot the three as a true 7-foot front court player, but when people were upset about the deal there was almost zero acknowledgement and/or credit given to the those unquestionable facts - it was all just swept under the same soft/non-alpha/playoff clown/poor defender rug.

That's what made me reply to your post initially - the idea that people who disliked/hated the trade knew he would show what he has through these first 5 games. I usually try to just watch on the sidelines, but there was so much flat-out wrong and very loud negativity for weeks after the deal about what KAT would bring to the table, and you pulled me in when you insinuated that the majority or the loudest of the doubters were rational and/or logical about his offense.

lol.
nah, my bad with the peacock nonsense. that was outta pocket. The noise can get loud around here canceling out valid points.

to your point - I wasn't aware that his offense is THIS good or that his defense isn't that bad. which leads to my main concern with the trade - that his defense was going to be so bad, especially at the 5, that his offense wouldn't make up for it. if he is able to keep up his offensive domination(not his current run cause he is currently playing out of his mind) but a high standard his average defense will be enough for us to be contenders.

[Knick4Real]

[Nostrand Ave]

With Bridges, OG, and Hart, why isn't our defense better than it is? He defended well against the Pistons but they're the Pistons. Shouldn't this team be better defensively?

[Fat Kat]

With Bridges, OG, and Hart, why isn't our defense better than it is? He defended well against the Pistons but they're the Pistons. Shouldn't this team be better defensively?

They’ve played 5 games.

[Reign23]

You're going to make Buzz cry with all of this vicious Tobias Harris slander

noo tbh I've always liked Harris. buzz knows !
but them trying to be semi competent with those vets instead of featuring the kids ... I have flashbacks.

The "kids" need to know how to play with vets anyway. I never really understood the problem there, besides the fraud Monty benching Ivey for Hayes of all people.

The bigger problem is they haven't hit on their picks. Cade could become a good player but he's clearly not a 1A and his game isn't conducive to winning in the role he's been thrust in. Ivey is an unknown quantity but he's starting. Duren is playing but he hasn't demonstrated he can be an impactful starter in the NBA. Holland is seeing minutes off the bench, which is normal. They are featuring them enough.

Them trying to get floor spacers is in theory what you want around young pieces for their development. It just seems that nobody's good enough in their roles, including the young guys.

partly agree here. you need floor spacers, but not chuckers who completely hijack the offense like those three players do. ideally you put 3 and d guys around Cade, Ivey and Duren.

[spree2kawhi]

With Bridges, OG, and Hart, why isn't our defense better than it is? He defended well against the Pistons but they're the Pistons. Shouldn't this team be better defensively?

Should they?

[2010]

Dream shakes, monster dunks, highlight reel blocks, step-backs, shooting the fade, hitting the open man… *sheesh*

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Chanel Bomber]

noo tbh I've always liked Harris. buzz knows !
but them trying to be semi competent with those vets instead of featuring the kids ... I have flashbacks.

The "kids" need to know how to play with vets anyway. I never really understood the problem there, besides the fraud Monty benching Ivey for Hayes of all people.

The bigger problem is they haven't hit on their picks. Cade could become a good player but he's clearly not a 1A and his game isn't conducive to winning in the role he's been thrust in. Ivey is an unknown quantity but he's starting. Duren is playing but he hasn't demonstrated he can be an impactful starter in the NBA. Holland is seeing minutes off the bench, which is normal. They are featuring them enough.

Them trying to get floor spacers is in theory what you want around young pieces for their development. It just seems that nobody's good enough in their roles, including the young guys.

partly agree here. you need floor spacers, but not chuckers who completely hijack the offense like those three players do. ideally you put 3 and d guys around Cade, Ivey and Duren.

So that Cade, Ivey and Duren take all the shots and hijack the offense themselves? How is that positive for their development?

Cade is averaging more than 20 FGAs a game and ranks #9 in the NBA shots attempted. Ivey is averaging almost 15 FGAs per game. Duren is not an offensive option. Their volume is fine, and they need to learn to play with other players who can score.

Tobias and Hardaway combined don't take as many shots as Cade alone. What's the issue there?

[Reign23]

The "kids" need to know how to play with vets anyway. I never really understood the problem there, besides the fraud Monty benching Ivey for Hayes of all people.

The bigger problem is they haven't hit on their picks. Cade could become a good player but he's clearly not a 1A and his game isn't conducive to winning in the role he's been thrust in. Ivey is an unknown quantity but he's starting. Duren is playing but he hasn't demonstrated he can be an impactful starter in the NBA. Holland is seeing minutes off the bench, which is normal. They are featuring them enough.

Them trying to get floor spacers is in theory what you want around young pieces for their development. It just seems that nobody's good enough in their roles, including the young guys.

partly agree here. you need floor spacers, but not chuckers who completely hijack the offense like those three players do. ideally you put 3 and d guys around Cade, Ivey and Duren.

So that Cade, Ivey and Duren take all the shots and hijack the offense themselves? How is that positive for their development?

Cade is averaging more than 20 FGAs a game and ranks #9 in the NBA shots attempted. Ivey is averaging almost 15 FGAs per game. Duren is not an offensive option. Their volume is fine, and they need to learn to play with other players who can score.

Tobias and Hardaway combined don't take as many shots as Cade alone. What's the issue there?

I didn't look at the averages, nor do I watch the Pistons. I was just making this statement based on the game I saw. And still, I think surrounding them with 3 and d guys develops better habbits. Anyway they need a real blue chip 1a talent so Cade can be the #2.

[Chanel Bomber]

partly agree here. you need floor spacers, but not chuckers who completely hijack the offense like those three players do. ideally you put 3 and d guys around Cade, Ivey and Duren.

So that Cade, Ivey and Duren take all the shots and hijack the offense themselves? How is that positive for their development?

Cade is averaging more than 20 FGAs a game and ranks #9 in the NBA shots attempted. Ivey is averaging almost 15 FGAs per game. Duren is not an offensive option. Their volume is fine, and they need to learn to play with other players who can score.

Tobias and Hardaway combined don't take as many shots as Cade alone. What's the issue there?

I didn't look at the averages, nor do I watch the Pistons. I was just making this statement based on the game I saw. And still, I think surrounding them with 3 and d guys develops better habbits. Anyway they need a real blue chip 1a talent so Cade can be the #2.

Oh ok. Personally I didn't see any issues with their shot distribution. They game was over in the first quarter, so the starters didn't play a lot of minutes. If anything, it allowed Holland to play 20+ minutes and get some shots up. I'm sorry, I don't see much of a problem there. But right, if they can draft or trade for a legit 1A everything should start falling into place. Or maybe Cade or Ivey take a huge leap. Patience will be key, but they will also need to find some solutions soon enough that it doesn't turn toxic. It's a delicate balance.

[Clyde_Style]

NYKinMIA's GT for tomorrow night is MIA