Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#41 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 2, 2024 5:03 pm

Paulluxx9000 wrote:Hakeem as a Rookie was the best defender in the league. And should’ve won rookie of the year without a single doubt.

Hakeem might have been the most dynamic defender in the league, but in real effect I think “best” comfortably goes to Eaton.

Agree with Hakeem as the top rookie though. Struggled against Eaton, but ultimately did enough for the Rockets to have won that series: in the winner-take-all game, which the Jazz won by seven points courtesy of a 37-21 fourth quarter comeback, the non-Hakeem/Sampson Rockets combined to shoot 19/59 from the field. :nonono:
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#42 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Sat Nov 2, 2024 5:27 pm

1 - Magic
2 - Isiah Thomas
3 - Kareem
4 - Bird
5 - Hakeem

#1 is kind of easy. He's the best player and the 2nd best guy plays pretty bad during the playoffs so Magic seems an easy enough #1. Maybe you can say Kareem was better in the finals but I'm not just going to ignore the rest of the season. Isiah outplays Bird head to head and puts up really good numbers all season. I didn't know Isiah was that good that early honestly. 13 assists is alot and he's doing it at 21? I don't know how much value all the assists are but the Pistons keep being really good on offense so I'm guessing they're worth something. I agree it would be weird for the Lakers to get the tpp two players so I'm not going to put Kareem 2nd or 1st but he was maybe the best player in the final and I'm guessing he's still a really good defender. I thought of taking Mchale over Bird honestly but I don't know. Rockets improve lots with Haleem. I didn't care too much about Bill Russell's offensive numbers not being awesome so I think I'll trust a really good two-way player's impact than worry about his stats that much. Didn't have to be mean about it but Kcitiny did make me consider Eaton honestly.

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Eaton
2 - Hakeem
3 - Robert Parish

Offensive Player of the Year

1- Magic
2 - Isiah Thomas
3 -Larry Bird
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#43 » by trex_8063 » Sat Nov 2, 2024 9:07 pm

70sFan wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Let's start with the idea that Mark Eaton ever vaguely resembled a top 5 player. He didn't. He was a great shotblocker, not a great defender otherwise as he was immobile and slowfooted. Offensively, he was one of the worst in the league with neither good movement nor good shooting ability from anywhere outside of 5 feet. Average rebounder. He did what he did and did it well, but he didn't do anything else very well.

1. He wasn't an average rebounder in 1984/85. He posted a career-high 17.0 REB%, which is good.


It's decent (good(ish)).
So in this specific year (which, thank you for steering things back to the year in question) he could be called a decent rebounding center. He did hedge toward average [even a pinch weak] rebounding for a center in other years.


70sFan wrote:2. Being one dimensional doesn't necessarily reject you from top 5 discussion. Eaton's shotblocking ability is a massive outlier, his inside presence is among the best ever. That alone made him a great defender, especially back when the outside game was less relevant.


I agree that, in theory, being one-dimensional doesn't exclude you from consideration.
Agree also that his limitations were more.......accentuated [or rather weaknesses more hidden] in this era where the outside game was less relevant (there was also no defensive 3-second rule at this time).
These limitations are perhaps more relevant if talking about a peaks project or all-time rank as defender, etc; but specifically talking about POY or DPOY, I don't think you can do anything but consider ONLY how he did within that specific year. And he was a defensive beast here.

Is it enough to be top 5 overall? imo, no. His offensive weaknesses negate a fair bit, I think. Frank Layden even famously said it was like playing 4-on-5 on offense whenever Eaton was in the game. So for as much as he deserves the lion's share of the credit for that #1 defense, one could argue he also deserves the lion's share of the credit for their 21st [of 23] rated offense.

At any rate, his limitations on offense undoubtedly place a certain cap on his per-minute/possession impact, and then combine that with noting he's only 37th in the league in mpg......and I wonder if he can truly be anywhere near top-5 in impact.

When we have prime versions of Bird, Magic, Moses, Isiah, Moncrief, English, Dantley (misses 27 games, but around for playoffs) in the league........Kareem is still playing at a very high level, Dr J still somewhat high level, now have rookies Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon in the league, too, etc.

I just can't get to top 5 for Eaton based on his ONE and only utility (rim protection).


70sFan wrote:3. I don't think young Eaton was nearly as immobile as people try to make him look. He wasn't Hakeem of course, but he could move and knew how to use his massive frame.


Agree again. I remember being somewhat surprised by his mobility when I watched some Jazz games from circa '85-'87 (what little memory I had of him was from the early 90s, where he is indeed plodding and slow).
Not saying his mobility is "good", or that he could be a super-impressive pnr defender or anything. He just wasn't as slow as in my memory [back in the mid-80s].


70sFan wrote:That doesn't make him a top 5 player, but I could entertain his case for top 15 for this year.


Agree. Could maybe even make a dark-horse case for top 11-12(ish). But top-5? imo, no.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#44 » by kcktiny » Sat Nov 2, 2024 10:37 pm

he was a defensive beast here.


Yes he was.

So for as much as he deserves the lion's share of the credit for that #1 defense, one could argue he also deserves the lion's share of the credit for their 21st [of 23] rated offense.


How? Go ahead and argue it.

Eaton in 1984-85 missed just 4.5 FGA/g (he shot 45% on 2s). He missed less than 1 FTA/g. He committed just 2.5 TO/g. He attempted just 9% of the team's FGAs, just 11% of their FTAs. He also lead them in offensive rebounds.

Go ahead and argue how a player with those numbers on offense deserves the lion's share of the credit for their offense not being good.

and then combine that with noting he's only 37th in the league in mpg


Eaton in 1984-85 played the 5th most minutes (2813) among all Cs in the league. That's among 23 teams, 23 starting Cs.

He played the 25th most minutes among all 320 players that played that season. That puts him in the top 8% of players in total minutes played that year.

I just can't get to top 5 for Eaton based on his ONE and only utility (rim protection).


Did you know he lead the league in defensive rebounds in 1984-85, and also had the league's 2nd highest per minute defensive rebounding rate?

I wonder if he can truly be anywhere near top-5 in impact


Is it enough to be top 5 overall? imo, no


So you don't think that a dominant defensive C that scored at a rate of just 11.3 pts/40min (only 11th best on Utah that year) and shot only 44.9% on 2s (71% FT%) and that you want to argue also deserves the lion's share of the credit for their offense not being very good can be anywhere near a top 5 player in impact?

Did you know that in 1964-65 Bill Russell scored at a rate of just 12.7 pts/40min and shot only 43.8% on 2s (only a 57% FT%)? Did you know his per minute scoring rate that year was only 10th best on the Celtics, and only 12th best among the 14 Cs that played 1000+ minutes in the league that year?

Was Russell anywhere near a top-5 impact player that 1964-65 season?

Btw - he was named league MVP in 1964-65, despite his - quote - ONE and only one utility, shot defense (but like Eaton he may very well have lead the league in defensive rebounds that year). And I can't wait to hear how his MVP came due to his assists.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#45 » by Djoker » Sat Nov 2, 2024 11:32 pm

Here is some ON-OFF Data for 1984-85.

Magic Johnson

Regular Season (41 games) - Partial

ON: +12.3
OFF: -11.3
ON-OFF: +23.5

Postseason (19 games)

ON: +15.1
OFF: -7.7
ON-OFF: +22.8

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Regular Season (41 games) - Partial

ON: +13.9
OFF: -8.7
ON-OFF: +22.6

Larry Bird

Regular Season (46 games) - Partial

ON: +4.9
OFF: -5.9
ON-OFF: +10.8

Michael Jordan

Regular Season (32 games) - Partial

ON: +0.5
OFF: -11.2
ON-OFF: +11.7

Postseason (4 games)

ON: +2.9
OFF: -75.2
ON-OFF: +78.1

Moses Malone

Regular Season (82 games)

ON: +9.5
OFF: -12.1
ON-OFF: +21.7
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#46 » by penbeast0 » Sat Nov 2, 2024 11:39 pm

kcktiny wrote:
he was a defensive beast here.


Yes he was.

So for as much as he deserves the lion's share of the credit for that #1 defense, one could argue he also deserves the lion's share of the credit for their 21st [of 23] rated offense.


How? Go ahead and argue it.

Eaton in 1984-85 missed just 4.5 FGA/g (he shot 45% on 2s). He missed less than 1 FTA/g. He committed just 2.5 TO/g. He attempted just 9% of the team's FGAs, just 11% of their FTAs. He also lead them in offensive rebounds.

Go ahead and argue how a player with those numbers on offense deserves the lion's share of the credit for their offense not being good.

and then combine that with noting he's only 37th in the league in mpg


Eaton in 1984-85 played the 5th most minutes (2813) among all Cs in the league. That's among 23 teams, 23 starting Cs.

He played the 25th most minutes among all 320 players that played that season. That puts him in the top 8% of players in total minutes played that year.

I just can't get to top 5 for Eaton based on his ONE and only utility (rim protection).


Did you know he lead the league in defensive rebounds in 1984-85, and also had the league's 2nd highest per minute defensive rebounding rate?

I wonder if he can truly be anywhere near top-5 in impact


Is it enough to be top 5 overall? imo, no


So you don't think that a dominant defensive C that scored at a rate of just 11.3 pts/40min (only 11th best on Utah that year) and shot only 44.9% on 2s (71% FT%) and that you want to argue also deserves the lion's share of the credit for their offense not being very good can be anywhere near a top 5 player in impact?

Did you know that in 1964-65 Bill Russell scored at a rate of just 12.7 pts/40min and shot only 43.8% on 2s (only a 57% FT%)? Did you know his per minute scoring rate that year was only 10th best on the Celtics, and only 12th best among the 14 Cs that played 1000+ minutes in the league that year?

Was Russell anywhere near a top-5 impact player that 1964-65 season?

Btw - he was named league MVP in 1964-65, despite his - quote - ONE and only one utility, shot defense (but like Eaton he may very well have lead the league in defensive rebounds that year). And I can't wait to hear how his MVP came due to his assists.


Russell was extremely quick on his feet for a big, got up and down the court quickly, and defended out onto the floor well. Eaton was bigger, slower, and didn't move terribly well. Sloan created a defense to funnel to him that worked beautifully and maximized the impact of his excellent shot block timing. On offense, Russell was a strong passer and his quickness meant you had to keep a man on him or he'd feast on the offensive glass. Eaton's man was able to only show on him and roam to help; that's why Sloan said playing offense with him was often like playing 4 on 5 because he wasn't quick footed enough to flash and his post repetoire wasn't strong enough to burn you for stepping away from him as you could get back. He shot 45% with little defensive attention being paid to him in a much more efficient era and not passing well hurt as well.

Eaton made the most out of what he was; but I think you overrate him considerably from what I saw of him.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#47 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 2, 2024 11:51 pm

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Jordan

4. Kareem
5. Moncrief

The top 3 are pretty easy. I honestly considered Jordan for #1, because I can't entirely convince myself that I'd take anyone else over him this year in the RS. His playoffs were a little disappointing though, so I bumped him to 3. I also feel like despite the garbage support cast, the Bulls should have done a little better. The biggest difference between him and the top 2 is their team mates. I'm not sure why Jordan should he punished for that. Bird's playoffs weren't perfect, bit he did enough to get the nod over Magic as he was still the superior player at this point. Magic's support cast just came up bigger.

As for 4 & 5, I considered a few candidates here. I've ultimately gone with Kareem, in large part due to his key playoff performance. This was a better year for him. Moncrief led one of the best teams in the NBA and was huge in the playoffs. It wasn't his fault Philly had a better team.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#48 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 3, 2024 9:24 am

kcktiny wrote:How? Go ahead and argue it.

Eaton in 1984-85 missed just 4.5 FGA/g (he shot 45% on 2s). He missed less than 1 FTA/g. He committed just 2.5 TO/g. He attempted just 9% of the team's FGAs, just 11% of their FTAs. He also lead them in offensive rebounds.

Go ahead and argue how a player with those numbers on offense deserves the lion's share of the credit for their offense not being good.


I don't know, maybe playing 4 on 5 on offense with one player unable to do anything relevant is quite challenging. Is it a crazy idea?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#49 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 3, 2024 9:25 am

One_and_Done wrote:I honestly considered Jordan for #1, because I can't entirely convince myself that I'd take anyone else over him this year in the RS.

Based on what exactly?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#50 » by One_and_Done » Sun Nov 3, 2024 10:13 am

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I honestly considered Jordan for #1, because I can't entirely convince myself that I'd take anyone else over him this year in the RS.

Based on what exactly?

Based on the fact that if Jordan had the amount of talent around him that Bird and Magic did, he probably could have done similarly.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#51 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 3, 2024 11:44 am

One_and_Done wrote:
70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I honestly considered Jordan for #1, because I can't entirely convince myself that I'd take anyone else over him this year in the RS.

Based on what exactly?

Based on the fact that if Jordan had the amount of talent around him that Bird and Magic did, he probably could have done similarly.

Again, based on what?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#52 » by homecourtloss » Sun Nov 3, 2024 3:50 pm

Interesting season in 1985.

RPOY votes

1. Magic Johnson — The age old wisdom was that Magic wouldn’t become the best player in the world until 1987, and while I can see why people believed that as true, some impact data we now have access to suggests that Magic was an all-time impact engine whose peak rivals anyone’s. 1985 saw an ultimate playmaker who was also an efficient scorer in both the RS and PS who also wasn’t a liability on defense and, depending on how one interprets some partial data we have, might have been a plus on defense.

2. Larry Bird — Maybe his best RS box score performance driven by a still active motor with an increasingly smoother jumper that would peak in later, less athletic years. The PS drop vs. both the Sixers and Lakers hurts him. Also, the partial impact data we have shows Bird to be underwhelming relative to reputation.

3. Kareem — Remarkable consistency on offense that continued in the post season while not being a negative on defense yet. He played one of his best playoff series relative to expectations against the Celtics in which he was scoring efficiently in tough moments while providing impact on defense.

4. Moses Malone — a forgotten year from Moses who falls off after this dominant season. Could have had a better series vs. Boston, but this was Moses doing Moses things all year round. Honestly, I could easily see him as #2 here,

5. Isiah Thomas — tough one here as Jordan and Moncrief also had good years, but I thought this might be Thomas’s peak year as far as playmaking and scoring go. He had a higher Ast% than Magic did this year even though the offensive cast around him wasn’t all that great (nor was the defensive cast). He also played well in the playoffs and showed a great vs. the Celtics
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#53 » by kcktiny » Sun Nov 3, 2024 6:30 pm

Russell was extremely quick on his feet for a big, got up and down the court quickly, and defended out onto the floor well. Eaton was bigger, slower,


Bigger and slower than Russell? I've seen Russell listed at 6-9/6-10 and 215/220 lb, Eaton at 7-4 and 275 lb (if not more). This premise is likely correct.

But Eaton big and slow? Not even close. Prime Eaton (like this season) was big and as athletic as a 7-4 player could be. You don't set a record for the most blocked shots in a season - still a record today, 4 decades later - being slow and unathletic.

and didn't move terribly well


This premise? Clearly false.

You want to script a narrative that is patently untrue, for whatever reason.

This is from the 1985 playoffs, Utah against Houston, again the year Eaton set the record for most blocked shots in a season, and the season of this thread. It's a 90 minute video, but you don't have to watch more than the first 2 minutes to see that not only you are wrong, but wrong in a big way.

Before even 2 minutes are played Eaton runs down Rockets 6-1 PG John Lucas (#5) to block his layup attempt - and the 7-4 C actually jumps in the air (oh my) to do that. Stop the video and you'll see Eaton airborne with his feet at the level of Lucas' knees.



Note the 11 minute mark - Eaton flying through the air to block a Rodney McCray layup attempt (granted at 275 lb his flight time wasn't very long).

How about the 19 minute mark? Eaton at the FT line extended again flying through the air to try to block a Lionel Hollins shot.

Then the 32 min mark, Eaton in the air again blocking a Robert Reid shot from past the FT line.

I guess Russell was not the only C who could guard and block shots of players on the perimeter.

So this idea that all Eaton ever did was camp in the lane and wait for opponents to get near the basket is - as they say - only in your mind.

playing offense with him was often like playing 4 on 5


Notice how every time Eaton posts up, Olajuwon is right there on his back, whether he got the ball or not.

Notice at the 52-53 min mark Olajuwon face guarding Eaton with the ball at the top of the key. Must have been worried about his passing and long range shooting, huh? Same thing at the 58-59 min mark, with Olajuwon jumping in his face trying to block any pass.

As a matter of fact, in this game Eaton played 40 minutes and Olajuwon 42 minutes, and the only time you see Olajuwon leaving Eaton were the few times he went try to block the shot of another Jazz player going to the hoop.

He shot 45% with little defensive attention being paid to him


So you watch the video and you let all of us know when Eaton was left alone and the Jazz were often playing 4 on 5 on offense. You tell us how little defensive attention Olajuwon paid to him.

I don't know, maybe playing 4 on 5 on offense with one player unable to do anything relevant is quite challenging. Is it a crazy idea?


Crazy? Perhaps. But in this case clearly wrong.

Nothing like a little empirical video evidence to falsify a hypothesis, huh? Had you watched as much film on Eaton as you say you have on Gilmore you would have known this.

Prime Eaton was a mobile, athletic 7 footer with incredible coordination for blocking shots and preventing the opposition from scoring. Give the man his due - because back then those that saw him play clearly did.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#54 » by AEnigma » Sun Nov 3, 2024 6:39 pm

kcktiny wrote:Give the man his due - because back then those that saw him play clearly did.

So why did he finish sixteenth in MVP voting?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#55 » by kcktiny » Sun Nov 3, 2024 6:50 pm

Why was he the DPOY?

Why did he get the most votes for the all-defensive team?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#56 » by OhayoKD » Sun Nov 3, 2024 6:52 pm

1. Magic

Not unfair to ask if Kareem shined brighter in the ultimate series but this is a fairly weak line of attack for those voting a player who was arguably outshone by Kevin Mchale for the duration of his postseason run. In general he's the impact-standout of everyone here outside of a post-season comparison to a rookie I'm putting 5th. (It's not the one who won rookie of the year)

I don't care too much about the on/off stuff but there are voters who've relied on that heavily this last year and I don't see why it would matter for Jordan if it didn't matter for Magic. Both teams platooned and Magic's on/off seems more consistent with larger stretches of missed time. Granted Kareem looks awesome there too and he does quite well without Magic in the regular season in earlier post-prime years. Still, Magic is a significant mpg lead, we see what Magic does post-Kareem, and the team improves gearing themselves

2. Kareem

Are the Lakers underwhelming for a team with the top 2 players? Yes. But here's the thing. The reason they are not at the desired level of dominance is because of Boston, another team which, during the most critical moments, saw their standard hierarchy disrupted. Take out Boston who at least arguably had a different playoff-lead, and the Lakers are 12-1 as well as the best regular season team by 4 wins and 2 points of SRS. Generally teams that plausibly could have 2 top 3 finishers come against a 2nd best team with a clear end to end lead (1991, 2001, 2020). That can't be said of Boston and it opens the door for Jabbar who combines elite defense with elite offense. The only notable two way forces in my estimation are Hakeem and Moses. Neither lead teams close enough to the Lakers for me to consider their results as proof of superiority, and I prefer Kareem conceptually to both.

3. Isiah Thomas

Led a more successful losing effort than Moses and outplayed Bird more clearly head to head. I don't think his assists are magic-quality but at least by a DTO approach he probably has an edge on Larry from what I'ce seem. Pair that with him efficiency not collapsing epically during the postseason, I'll take him 3rd.

4. Bird

Bird was arguably not a top 5 playoff performer. That's why the Celtics lost. And that's why he's 4th here.

5. Hakeem

Nothing fancy here

Djoker wrote:Michael Jordan

Regular Season (32 games) - Partial

ON: +0.5
OFF: -11.2
ON-OFF: +11.7

Postseason (4 games)

ON: +2.9
OFF: -75.2
ON-OFF: +78.1

Moses Malone

Regular Season (82 games)

ON: +9.5
OFF: -12.1
ON-OFF: +21.7

I don't know what Hakeem's on/off is, but here's how he compares to other borderline top 5 candidates using full-games:
Spoiler:
For comparison here are the 84/85 Bulls

Before Jordan, -4.69 SRS, 27-55 record
After Jordan, -.5 SRS, 38-44 record

The 84/85 Rockets

Before Hakeem, -3.12 SRS, 29-53 record
After Hakeem, +1.38 SRS, 48-34 record

84/85 Bucks with and without Moncrief

With - 150/228 - 54-win pace, net-rating. +5.6 net rating
without 10-8, 46-win pace, 2.5 net-rating
84/85 Knicks with and without Bernard King

With - 40 wins, +1.6 net-rating
without - 18 wins, -9 net-rating

Nothing really to use for Isiah

King with a big signal (ontop of massive team playoff overperformance). After him Hakeem has a narrow edge over the rest in net/srs and a decent one in terms of record.


Even ignoring the Knicks also missing their second best player, King misses nearly 30 games and accordingly the postseason. Hakeem edges the rest in srs with a clear advantage in wins and next year if you account for postseason elevation might have the best signal of the decade.

Some may argue the 27-win team accused of tanking turned into a 5-win cast over the off-season. I will not.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#57 » by OhayoKD » Sun Nov 3, 2024 6:53 pm

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
70sFan wrote:Based on what exactly?

Based on the fact that if Jordan had the amount of talent around him that Bird and Magic did, he probably could have done similarly.

Again, based on what?

I find it interesting how Rookie-year record improvement means alot for Bird but apparently means nothing when Jordan gets beat by his own draft-mate.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#58 » by One_and_Done » Sun Nov 3, 2024 7:34 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Based on the fact that if Jordan had the amount of talent around him that Bird and Magic did, he probably could have done similarly.

Again, based on what?

I find it interesting how Rookie-year record improvement means alot for Bird but apparently means nothing when Jordan gets beat by his own draft-mate.

1) I am holding it against Jordan, that's part of why why he's 3rd. That said, while it's ideal if we see a huge lift every year, things can be more nuanced. Say a guy showed huge lift 9/10 years; I'd be more inclined to write off the 10th year as a Mulligan beyond their control depending on the circumstances. Obviously Jordan got better in future years, and learned to have a better floor game and play more effectively off team mates. But if he'd had a better team and coach who utilised him properly I could see him producing the same or better team results as say B.King did at his peak pretty easily.
2) Jordan's support cast was risible, even worse than Bird's in 1980. They had the worst SRS in the league the previous year, and it was amazing they won as many games as they did. I'm inclined to call it a fluke, partly affected by parity and tanking that year.
3) alot of other things changed for the Rockets other than Hakeem arriving. Mainly they switched from blatantly tanking to trying to win. Secondly, other guys arrived or played more. Hakeem helped alot, and was considered here, but he wasn't the sole reason for their 19 game improvement. The same team was 7-7 without him the following year. While that's a small sample, it seems to be in line with what we'd expect. The Hakeemless Rockets would have been much better than a 29 win team in 85, just because of the factors noted above.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#59 » by OhayoKD » Sun Nov 3, 2024 8:32 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
70sFan wrote:I find it interesting how Rookie-year record improvement means alot for Bird but apparently means nothing when Jordan gets beat by his own draft-mate.

1) I am holding it against Jordan, that's why he's 3rd. That said, while it's ideal if we see a huge lift every year, things can be more nuanced. Say a guy showed huge lift 9/10 years; I'd be more inclined to write off the 10th year as a Mulligan beyond their control depending on the circumstances.

Like this?
Spoiler:
Of course, a common knock on Hakeem is his consistency as an RS performer, but even over longer periods, he looks quite good. IIRC, if you use 10-year samples...

Hakeem takes 33-win teams to 48 wins, 15 win lift
Jordan takes 38-win teams to 53.5 wins, 15 win lift
Magic takes 44-win teams to 59


Magic Johnson(3x MVP) 1980-1991
Lakers are +0.8 without, +7.5 with

Micheal Jordan(5x MVP) 1985-1998
Bulls are +1.3 without, +6.1 with

Hakeem(1x MVP) 1985-1999
Rockets are -2.8 without. +2.5 with



2) Jordan's support cast was risible, even worse than Bird's in 1980.

Risible yet won nearly as many games as the Hakeem-less rockets while tanking.

3) alot of other things changed for the Rockets other than Hakeem arriving. Mainly they switched from blatantly tanking to trying to win. Secondly, other guys arrived or played more. Hakeem helped alot, and was considered here, but he wasn't the sole reason for their 19 game improvement. The same team was 7-7 without him the following year. While that's a small sample, it seems to be in line with what we'd expect.

And then they were 2-7 without him(that's a 23-win pace, -4.7 net) in 87 and 33-win/-3 overall for his prime. One might note they were as good without sampson as with for half-of that season(the biggest not-Hakeem minutes difference between 84 and 85)

86 is the outlier here, not 84.

The Hakeemless Rockets would have been much better than a 29 win team in 85, just because of the factors noted above

The Bulls also tanked. Your analysis also ignores that Sampson was more productive on better efficiency in 84 than he was in 85 with 84 being his career bbref peak in most everything (true-shooting, rebound percentage, tov percentage, block percentage, blocks) and a close second in everything else (besides steal percentage) despite him averaging 4 less minutes. Woodrige on the other hand showcases cross-board improvement between 84 and 85 going by both volume and efficiency.

I don't think you've thought this through
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE 

Post#60 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 3, 2024 8:39 pm

kcktiny wrote:Crazy? Perhaps. But in this case clearly wrong.

Nothing like a little empirical video evidence to falsify a hypothesis, huh? Had you watched as much film on Eaton as you say you have on Gilmore you would have known this.

Prime Eaton was a mobile, athletic 7 footer with incredible coordination for blocking shots and preventing the opposition from scoring. Give the man his due - because back then those that saw him play clearly did.

Me being a massive Dantley fan means I have watched every single 1983-86 Jazz game available in great details, so you are wrong - I have watched a lot of prime Eaton (post prime as well).

All of these things you mentioned are true. Him being a horrible passer, having no range beyond the paint, having no scoring moves outside of inefficient sweeping hook, not having ability to attack defenses off the dribble are all also true. Eaton's only value on offense is that he's big, so he could finish shots inside relatively easily and could grab some offensive rebounds (but he wasn't elite at that). Beyond that, defenses could basically ignore him.

I give him credit he deserves - he was by far the 1st choice for my DPOY voting this year (and would compete with Hakeem for next years) and I consider him to be top ~15 level player overall. He's not MVP candidate though, there is nothing wrong with that. I don't disrespect him for thinking there were better players than him or not lying about his offensive limitations.

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