Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Larry Bird - 1st Team All-NBA. MVP. The Celtics had the best record in the league behind Bird's all-around excellence. Going into the ECF, Bird is a pretty easy #1 but then he breaks his hand in a stupid bar fight and struggles the rest of the way in the 9 most important games of the season. However, he still plays like a star against the Lakers in the Finals. This isn't Kobe in 2004 or Lebron in 2011 kind of underperformance. And the guys right behind him just didn't make up that ground IMO although they almost did. Averaged 28.7/10.5/6.6 on 58.5 %TS (+4.2 rTS) in the RS then 26.0/9.1/5.8 on 53.6 %TS (+0.5 rTS) in the PS.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 2nd Team All-NBA but sandwiched between two 1st Team selections. He was a close 2nd to Magic in the RS and through the West playoffs but in the Finals which was the Lakers' only real test, Kareem was transcendent putting up the greatest ever performance by anyone 38 years old and one of the better big man performances in history. It doesn't quite make up for the relative mediocrity of this RS but it's enough for #2 here. He was still the Lakers' main man when they needed someone to take over and he anchored them defensively too which gives them a value boost over everyone else on this ballot. Averaged 22.0/7.9/3.2 on 62.8 %TS (+8.5 rTS) in the RS then 21.9/8.1/4.0 on 60.2 %TS (+6.4 rTS) in the PS. In the Finals he put up 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 62.9 %TS (+10.6 rTS) against one of the greatest frontcourts ever.

3. Magic Johnson - 1st Team All-NBA. Most valuable Lakers over the course of the RS. Captain of the ship that is the league's best offense but Kareem was more than just a sidekick. Magic averaged 18.3/6.2/12.6 on 63.7 %TS (+9.4 rTS) in the RS then 17.5/7.1/15.2 on 59.9 %TS (+6.1 rTS) in the PS.

4. Michael Jordan - 2nd Team All-NBA. Carried a putrid roster into the PS and just became transcendent over the course of the season. Most reminiscent of Kareem in 1970, Jordan's rookie year was a tale of two halves. The first forty games he was finding his way and then basically went up a level. In the four-game series against the Bucks, he excelled all-around including on the defensive end against a far more talented team. Averaged 28.2/6.5/5.9 on 59.2 %TS (+4.9 rTS) in the RS then 29.3/5.8/8.5 on 56.5 %TS (+4.2 rTS) in the PS.

5. Isiah Thomas - 1st Team All-NBA. Just a strong combo of scoring and playmaking. Played well in the PS despite his team losing to Boston which was a much more talented team. He averaged 21.2/4.5/13.9 on 52.9 %TS (-1.4 rTS) in the RS then 24.3/5.2/11.2 on 56.7 %TS (+3.5 rTS) in the PS. What I don't like about IT is his mediocre efficiency.

HM: Moses Malone - 1st Team All-NBA, 3rd in MVP voting. Poor in the PS so he just misses out though I find Moses vs. Isiah quite close.

OPOY

1. Larry Bird

2. Magic Johnson

3. Michael Jordan

Basically the top 3 perimeter guys from the POY.

DPOY

1. Mark Eaton - Insane shotblocking season for a Utah team #1 on defense. Easy choice.

2. Hakeem Olajuwon - Even as a rookie, Hakeem had a deadly combo of shotblocking and horizontal defensive game. He would obviously get much more polished but he seems a safe choice here.

3. Sidney Moncrief - A perimeter phenom is still a phenom. Could be persuaded to change this pick but still feel good about it.

[One_and_Done]

You're not going to sway me with plus minus. The 87 sample isn't helpful because Sampson missed half the season and wasn't 100%. It also wouldn't be a shock for Hakeem to be a little better in 87, given most players improve after their rookie year.

I think the 85 Rockets would have been at least a mid 30s win team without Hakeem.

[OhayoKD]

You're not going to sway me with plus minus. The 87 sample isn't helpful because Sampson missed half the season and wasn't 100%.

It also wouldn't be a shock for Hakeem to be a little better in 87, given most players improve after their rookie year.

I think the 85 Rockets would have been at least a mid 30s win team without Hakeem.

Calling the same thing you have made stronger use of than anything else over the course of this project "plus-minus" to pretend it's different is funny.

What is your basis for the Bulls not tanking while the Rockets did? And why aren't you addressing Sampson declining while Woodridge improved.

[McBubbles]

Spoiler:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Isiah Thomas
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

1. Magic Johnson
Best player in the league and wins. I canneh wrap my head around people taking Bird above like. Bird just spends many possessions floating around doing nothing, I don’t get it. I think Ben Taylor has done some serious damage to how people view this, as Taylor makes it seem as if every single time Bird was on the court he had some Super Saiyan Nikola Curry off-ball black hole gravity no look touch pass action. He did not . He’s also not as good defensively as he used to be at this point. Magic on the other hand is just always imposing himself every possession. He’s a threat to create something out of nothing in every play, he can put you in shambles without even passing and you have to worry about him when he takes it to the hole. He’s just a much better player and he massively outplays him with a title on the line.

2. Isiah Thomas
Puts up lots of assists, leads greats offenses and makes his team do impressive things. He averaged 13 assists. Are those all real making the defense disappear assists like what Magic does? No. But he’s awesome in the playoffs, outplays Bird and Mchale head to head, sweeps one team, really gives the champions a scare. I don’t think he defends good but the other two also don’t so whatever really.

3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Not going to lie, I thought about putting him 1st which in of itself says ALOT. He was the best guy as a rookie and you aren’t crazy if you think he was the best guy 15 years later. Thats some GOAT ish right there. I just feel like the Lakers maybe need to be a little more dominant to have the two top guys.

4. Larry Bird
Rather mid for 4 rounds, likely not a top 5 player in the postseason but I’m not crazy. He did win an MVP and he did have his 2nd best regular season after last year. There many issues with his game which I’m sure more learned students of the game than I me will go through but that’s how I feel.

5. Hakeem
Why not honestly. Jordan is getting 3rd for joining a similar team and not winning as much. Rockets defense gets better by a good amount and Hakeem is the key there.

[One_and_Done]

You're not going to sway me with plus minus. The 87 sample isn't helpful because Sampson missed half the season and wasn't 100%.

It also wouldn't be a shock for Hakeem to be a little better in 87, given most players improve after their rookie year.

I think the 85 Rockets would have been at least a mid 30s win team without Hakeem.

Calling the same thing you have made stronger use of than anything else over the course of this project "plus-minus" to pretend it's different is funny.

What is your basis for the Bulls not tanking while the Rockets did? And why aren't you addressing Sampson declining while Woodridge improved.

If the Bulls tanked they did a really bad job of it, given they had the worst SRS in the league in 1984 and still somehow won 27 games.

I don't think yr 2 Sampson declined. I also think the Rockets fit better around Hakeem than the Bulls did around Jordan.

[ShaqAttac]

KAREEM
I know Magic supposed to be HIM now but idk tbh. If Kareem way better at D, and also has more points and also got the same ts and also creates a bunch coz of gravity like goat bronny says, maybe he was better? Even people voting Magic say Kareem better in the finals. He prob was the best player last finals too.

MAGIC
kinda bad to get outplayed by your own teammate in the final but i guess bird does too soo

IT
goes crazy vs Bos and averages lotta assists. Tbh people would prob be voting him 1 with Bird PR

HAKEEM
team gets waaay better, everyone says hes at least top 2 on D and he also scores 20.

BIRD
tbh the args are just bad. ppl put out the impact and context and eyetest explaining why Birds boxstuff him and all I see back is people just repeating that same boxscore to say he was really good. If Bird don't create and he don't defend and he isn't even got a good ts what y'all voting him 1 for. Even his on/off look bad too now.

[One_and_Done]

KAREEM
I know Magic supposed to be HIM now but idk tbh. If Kareem way better at D, and also has more points and also got the same ts and also creates a bunch coz of gravity like goat bronny says, maybe he was better? Even people voting Magic say Kareem better in the finals. He prob was the best player last finals too.

MAGIC
kinda bad to get outplayed by your own teammate in the final but i guess bird does too soo

IT
goes crazy vs Bos and averages lotta assists. Tbh people would prob be voting him 1 with Bird PR

HAKEEM
team gets waaay better, everyone says hes at least top 2 on D and he also scores 20.

BIRD
tbh the args are just bad. ppl put out the impact and context and eyetest explaining why Birds boxstuff him and all I see back is people just repeating that same boxscore to say he was really good. If Bird don't create and he don't defend and he isn't even got a good ts what y'all voting him 1 for. Even his on/off look bad too now.

This myth that Bird was only seen as better than Thomas because of PR is backed by absolutely nothing.

[OhayoKD]

You're not going to sway me with plus minus. The 87 sample isn't helpful because Sampson missed half the season and wasn't 100%.

It also wouldn't be a shock for Hakeem to be a little better in 87, given most players improve after their rookie year.

I think the 85 Rockets would have been at least a mid 30s win team without Hakeem.

Calling the same thing you have made stronger use of than anything else over the course of this project "plus-minus" to pretend it's different is funny.

What is your basis for the Bulls not tanking while the Rockets did? And why aren't you addressing Sampson declining while Woodridge improved.

If the Bulls tanked they did a really bad job of it, given they had the worst SRS in the league in 1984 and still somehow won 27 games

Their SRS literally predicts they'd win Less games than they actually won. What the hell are you talking about.

The Bulls lead MPG in 84 averaged 5 minutes less than anyone else in 83 and was 4th in minutes in 85. That is actual evidence of tanking.

You are literally just making things up now.

I don't think yr 2 Sampson declined. I also think the Rockets fit better around Hakeem than the Bulls did around Jordan.

Why? What makes Sampson, a guys main skill is paint-protection and who can't playmake a better fit for Jordan than Woodrige. Scoring reaches diminishing returns earlier, but to the extent that makes the Bulls a better fit, that is an indictment on Jordan's playstyle, not vindication of Hakeem's teammates

[kcktiny]

so you are wrong - I have watched a lot of prime Eaton

Good. Let's discuss prime Eaton.

All of these things you mentioned are true.

Surprise.

Him being a horrible passer, having no range beyond the paint, having no scoring moves outside of inefficient sweeping hook,

Not sure what you mean here. I've seen him hit quite a few dunks.

not having ability to attack defenses off the dribble are all also true.

Correct. But I have seen him dribble prior to a FTA. His FTA.

Eaton's only value on offense is that he's big,

Quite big. Only value? False.

so he could finish shots inside relatively easily

Correct.

and could grab some offensive rebounds (but he wasn't elite at that)

In 1984-85, this season we are discussing, he lead Utah in offensive rebounds with 207. No one else on the team was within 50 of that.

Beyond that, defenses could basically ignore him.

Oh yeh, right. Just nonsense. Like a Jazz opponent when on defense is going to ignore Utah's best offensive rebounder.

How about you watch the above video and let all of us know just exactly when Olajuwon ignored Eaton such that Utah was playing 4 on 5 on offense. How about showing us how Utah was at any kind of disadvantage on offense at any time because Eaton was left alone all by his lonesome self, let alone "often like playing 4 on 5" as described above.

Whenever Eaton is anywhere near the basket Olajuwon is right there, and whenever a Jazz player attempted a shot Olajuwon was there looking to box out Eaton.

Here's another 1984-85 game. How about you pointing out all the times Dave Corzine or Jawann Oldham ignored Eaton. Should be easy - Eaton played 42 minutes this game:

Watch on YouTube

I have watched a lot of prime Eaton

So then keep you eyes on just Eaton, and let us know all those times he's ignored and Utah is playing 4 on 5 on offense.

Or this one:

Watch on YouTube

Let us know how often Robert Parish leaves Eaton alone, ignores him.

[70sFan]

Not sure what you mean here. I've seen him hit quite a few dunks.

Yes, 7'4 pro player could dunk on an open basket. Who could imagine that...

Correct. But I have seen him dribble prior to a FTA. His FTA.

Is this supposed to be a joke?

In 1984-85, this season we are discussing, he lead Utah in offensive rebounds with 207. No one else on the team was within 50 of that.

It proves that he grabbed the most offensive rebounds on his team, nothing else.

How about you watch the above video and let all of us know just exactly when Olajuwon ignored Eaton such that Utah was playing 4 on 5 on offense. How about showing us how Utah was at any kind of disadvantage on offense at any time because Eaton was left alone all by his lonesome self, let alone "often like playing 4 on 5" as described above.

I turned on the game on the random time in the 2nd half and the first play in mind is like 46:10.

Whenever Eaton is anywhere near the basket Olajuwon is right there, and whenever a Jazz player attempted a shot Olajuwon was there looking to box out Eaton.

Yeah, if you thought that my point was that Eaton was never guarded inside the paint by his defender then again - you have extremely low standards for professional basketball players.

Here's another 1984-85 game. How about you pointing out all the times Dave Corzine or Jawann Oldham ignored Eaton. Should be easy - Eaton played 42 minutes this game:

Watch on YouTube

Again, turned on at random time:

1:00:30
1:13:30

Eaton didn't provide any offensive value that would give him above average NBA player offensive impact. I didn't mean that he absolutely did nothing on offense and I am sure that anyone other than you understand that just fine. Eaton was a pro player - he could dunk the ball and he could grab a few offensive rebounds. He could even score in isolation at times. That doesn't make him a good offensive player and it doesn't make him a positive piece for Jazz offense. Utah played like 4 on 5 on offense not because Eaton did nothing and was never guarded, but because he didn't provide any relevant value relative to other NBA players, not relative to me.

[kcktiny]

Is this supposed to be a joke?

No. Really. I saw him dribble once before attempting a FT. Maybe twice.

It proves that he grabbed the most offensive rebounds on his team, nothing else.

On the contrary. It proves that no team on defense ignores the opposition's best offensive rebounder. Not if they want to win games. And as you can clearly see in the videos.

Is this or is this not your quote?:

I don't know, maybe playing 4 on 5 on offense with one player unable to do anything relevant

Guess offensive rebounding in your eyes is not relevant.

Yeah, if you thought that my point was that Eaton was never guarded inside the paint by his defender

Nice backtrack. Again, is this or is this not your quote?:

I don't know, maybe playing 4 on 5 on offense with one player unable to do anything relevant

This statement seems awfully clearcut.

In actual fact if you watch those videos you will see that Eaton is rarely left alone on offense, and that Utah is almost never playing 4 against 5 on offense. Almost every single time he posts up he is guarded, and someone is always looking to box him out when a Jazz shot went up. Why? Because he was their best offensive rebounder.

you have extremely low standards for professional basketball players.

No. Just for those who claim to know players from 4 decades ago, that like to disparage them, and then when called upon to back up their claims start backtracking.

Eaton didn't provide any offensive value that would give him above average NBA player offensive impact.

Even "average" NBA player offensive impact is far far better than "unable to do anything relevant". Backtrack two.

I didn't mean that he absolutely did nothing on offense

Backtrack three.

Eaton was a pro player - he could dunk the ball and he could grab a few offensive rebounds.

A few? You still feel the need to disparage him.

From 1983-84 to 1991-92, the 9 seasons he played 2000+ minutes/season starting at C for Utah, Eaton grabbed the most offensive rebounds (1698) for the Jazz. That was also the 5th most offensive rebounds grabbed by a C in the league those 9 seasons.

But I'm sure you knew that.

That doesn't make him a good offensive player

Never said he was a good offensive player.

Utah played like 4 on 5 on offense not because Eaton did nothing and was never guarded, but because he didn't provide any relevant value relative to other NBA players

Backtrack four.

[70sFan]

Yeah, sorry but I won't continue such a worthless discussion.

[penbeast0]

Question for those supporting Mark Eaton as a possible top 10 player in the league. Can you name another contemporary multiyear starter who was a worse offensive player than Eaton?

[kcktiny]

Michael Olowokandi.

1998 #1 overall draft pick.

[Djoker]

Eaton was a pretty useless offensive player. Wholeheartedly agree with 70sFan that's he's maybe a top 15 ish player based on what he brings on defense but his team basically played 4-on-5 on offense. He's Dennis Rodman but without the elite offensive rebounding.

[LA Bird]

Player of the Year
1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Michael Jordan
5. Isiah Thomas

The reasons for me ranking Bird higher last year have flipped this year so it is a comfortable #1 for Magic. The bar fight is often used as an excuse for Bird underperforming in the 85 playoffs but:
1. He doesn't have the strongest postseason track record in other seasons anyway.
2. In the 3 games before the fight, he only averaged 21 points on 46% TS. Maybe it was the (now forgotten) bone chips in his elbow or other injuries but it seems too convenient to blame everything on the bar fight.
3. If this was someone like Barkley who injured himself in a bar fight, people would be roasting him for poor behavior instead of using it to justify subsequent poor games. And it doesn't help that witness accounts only mention Bird throwing a punch either.
Maybe some people will drop Bird out of the top 2 completely but I think it's still Magic/Bird at the top in this period.

After that, I see a bunch of guys who could realistically make top 5. Both the Bulls and Rockets improve by around 4 points, with Jordan's arrival having a stronger impact on one end (+6 offense) while Hakeem's was more balanced and led a stronger overall team (4th on defense). 40% sample RAPM has MJ among top of the league already and combined with great box numbers, I'll give Jordan the slight edge here. Hakeem wins the H2H comparison against Moses which drops the latter out of contention here. Kareem was overall at a similar level to 1983 and I am more comfortable picking a proven player than two rookies who got eliminated in round 1. The Bucks are nearing their RS peak but collapse defensively in the playoffs both seasons (-4.4 -> +2.8) with Moncrief individually barely getting any steals. Isiah has his best box season and steps up further in the playoffs, ultimately taking the last spot from Hakeem.

[B-Mitch 30]

This is the first year of the 1984 draft class, arguably the best of all time. Combined with Magic and Bird being at their peaks and Kareem tapping into the fountain of youth, and 1984-1985 is one of my favorite seasons to watch games from.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson

Magic once again led the Lakers to a championship with his unmatched passing and very efficient high scoring. Not much else to say, other than his playoff stats were more good than great, compared to some of his other runs.

2. Larry Bird

For me, this season is arguably peak Bird, as he combined being relatively injury free with his three-point shooting returning to its rookie heights. In the playoffs though, Bird’s stats declined and likely cost the Celtics another title.

3. Michael Jordan

Last season, the Bulls were ranked near the bottom of every team offensive stat. With the arrival of MJ, they rocketed up to being 1 of 7 teams with an eFG over 50%. Of those teams, the Bulls had the 3rd best turnover percentage, and 2nd most free throws per field goal attempt, while remaining merely below average in offensive rebounding. Of course, this didn’t translate into quite the turnaround this implies, mostly because the Bulls besides Jordan took very few field goal attempts. Even so, MJ clearly had an immediate and positive impact on the team.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Mark Eaton

Eaton’s shot blocking is the clear reason why the Jazz were the best defensive team in the league this year, and the man blocked twice as many shots as anyone in the NBA. An obvious first choice.

2. Rick Mahorn

The Bullets had perhaps the most well rounded defense this season, and Mahorn was the driving force, being their best shot blocker and defensive rebounder.

3. Hakeem Olajuwon

Hakeem hasn’t quite reached his absurd defensive peak, but he clearly improved the Rockets defense, especially when it came to discipline, as they went from committing the 2nd most fouls per field goal attempt, to merely 11th, while being in the top 10 of every other team defensive stat.

Player of the Year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I previously said 1979-1980 was Kareem’s crowning achievement, but this year was his magnum opus. After putting up his usual absurd stat line for his age, Kareem went off in the postseason, having one of the best Finals performances ever, and avenging his and the Lakers previous losses to the Celtics.

2. Magic Johnson

Of course, Kareem wouldn’t have been able to do it without Magic, who continues to be the best playmaker in the league.

3. Larry Bird

Bird’s stats remain great, and despite his playoff struggles, he was still the best player on the Celtics even then.

4. Hakeem Olajuwon

In addition to being one of the league’s best defenders, Hakeem led the NBA in offensive rebounds while averaging an efficient 20 points per game.

5. Michael Jordan

MJ’s impact on the Bulls was better than the team’s raw record indicates, and even so, with him they went from arguably the worst team in the NBA, to making the playoffs.

[penbeast0]

Michael Olowokandi.

1998 #1 overall draft pick.

Eaton retired in 93 so even if true, doesn't fit the time frame. In the Candyman's day, worst were probably the Collins brothers though Olowokandi was a bust for a #1 pick. Utah replaced him with the likes of Felton Spencer and Greg Ostertag so Sloan clearly didn't have the offensive center role as a key part of his offense.

Eaton was a pretty useless offensive player. Wholeheartedly agree with 70sFan that's he's maybe a top 15 ish player based on what he brings on defense but his team basically played 4-on-5 on offense. He's Dennis Rodman but without the elite offensive rebounding.

And Rodman was a decent passer even though he didn't get many touches plus his quickness and offensive rebounding meant you couldn't cheat off him the way you could off Eaton.

[70sFan]

Eaton was a pretty useless offensive player. Wholeheartedly agree with 70sFan that's he's maybe a top 15 ish player based on what he brings on defense but his team basically played 4-on-5 on offense. He's Dennis Rodman but without the elite offensive rebounding.

Rodman was a significantly better secondary passer as well.

[AEnigma]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Larry Bird - Going into the ECF, Bird is a pretty easy #1 but then he breaks his hand in a stupid bar fight and struggles the rest of the way in the 9 most important games of the season. However, he still plays like a star against the Lakers in the Finals. This isn't Kobe in 2004 or Lebron in 2011 kind of underperformance.

You are saying that entirely because of pace.

Basic basketball-reference pace adjustment takes Bird from 23.8/8.8/5 averages to 20/7.5/4.2 averages, with worse scoring efficiency and defence than what Lebron provided, against a worse defence. And Bird was not the best player in either of his two preceding series either, on top of (like 2011 Lebron and 2004 Kobe) not even being the best performer on his own team.

The only reason we can say Bird was not as much of a disappointment, apart from high pace propping up his raw production totals, is that postseason disappointment is reflexively assumed with Bird. Yeah, his Finals were not good… but they might have been better than his 1981 Finals all the same, and better than numerous others in his postseason history, so how much of a disappointment could these Finals really be, right.