PG: StarJ wins the battle against Demar

[TheRaptor!]

Nobody should be complaining about RJ.
The guy is playing great.. WWAAAAY better than Anonuby offensively. Also, without RJ on the floor Barnes and Dick are completely ineffective. Hes ability to get into the paint and disrupt defenses is invaluable to Darkos future offensive plans

I have been saying for a while that this team is unwatchable without RJ. The last few games haven't changed my mind on that.

This isn't a knock on Barnes because I think they need his skillset as well. The team just functions better on both ends with Scottie (he is as important as RJ).......... but I think this team can survive without Barnes more than they can survive without RJ.

It is simple, this is a offence driven league and RJ is the best offensive player on the team, therefore his impact is equal to if not greater than Scotties

[kalel123]

I think we may be too good to be very bad. Every game is close and entertaining. Tonight it seemed fitting to win it.

With reasonable health, we are. That's why we are stuck in no man's land.

What are you supposed to do? Our core is all under 25. Do you want to trade our young players for draft capital and worse player?

Then, hope the draft works out to be better than the current core we have now in 5 years' time?

We are definitely not in no man's land

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

[Airmiess]

With reasonable health, we are. That's why we are stuck in no man's land.

What are you supposed to do? Our core is all under 25. Do you want to trade our young players for draft capital and worse player?

Then, hope the draft works out to be better than the current core we have now in 5 years' time?

We are definitely not in no man's land

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

Who did the Spurs draft with the pick?
Sure Siakam and FVV could have been handled better but those were the lasting residual effects from the Demar trade that had shaken up Masai.

They have 4 guys under 25 who can put up 20 and you are trying to push a doom and gloom scenario.
They can sit guys this season if they wanted to and end up with a top 4 pick...

[DelAbbot]

What are you supposed to do? Our core is all under 25. Do you want to trade our young players for draft capital and worse player?

Then, hope the draft works out to be better than the current core we have now in 5 years' time?

We are definitely not in no man's land

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

Who did the Spurs draft with the pick?
Sure Siakam and FVV could have been handled better but those were the lasting residual effects from the Demar trade that had shaken up Masai.

They have 4 guys under 25 who can put up 20 and you are trying to push a doom and gloom scenario.
They can sit guys this season if they wanted to and end up with a top 4 pick...

I didn't know there was a moral price to pay for trading away loyalty (DD) in future loss of assets.

Don't fool yourself. Masai loved Siakam and FVV many times more than he did DD and that's why he held onto them until their trade value expired to 0 and near crumbs

[kalel123]

What are you supposed to do? Our core is all under 25. Do you want to trade our young players for draft capital and worse player?

Then, hope the draft works out to be better than the current core we have now in 5 years' time?

We are definitely not in no man's land

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

Who did the Spurs draft with the pick?
Sure Siakam and FVV could have been handled better but those were the lasting residual effects from the Demar trade that had shaken up Masai.

They have 4 guys under 25 who can put up 20 and you are trying to push a doom and gloom scenario.
They can sit guys this season if they wanted to and end up with a top 4 pick...

Always such limited view of things. This is much bigger and much more involved than a 2024 first round draft pick. The point has been regurgitated so many times on these boards that if you don't understand by now, you never will so I won't waste my time any further.

And if Masai Ujiri is so shook from the event that led to a championship, maybe he's no longer the right guy for the job.

[Tripod]

Imagine thinking where is nothing to do but wait until the next rebuild when you have 4 guys under 25 capable of posting 20 points, a solid C, and now what is looking like a deep bench. Christ, we just added 5 rookies to the team and 4 have shown to not be overwhelmed and the 5th we all know is going to need 2 years in the 905.

Not to mention all our 1sts and an extra from Indy.

He'll, we have the leading score from the draft 1 year ago and got him at #13. Now no one would expect that to continue but it shows you CAN add outside the top 5.

Keep adding talent and building this new culture.

[RoteSchroder]

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

Who did the Spurs draft with the pick?
Sure Siakam and FVV could have been handled better but those were the lasting residual effects from the Demar trade that had shaken up Masai.

They have 4 guys under 25 who can put up 20 and you are trying to push a doom and gloom scenario.
They can sit guys this season if they wanted to and end up with a top 4 pick...

I didn't know there was a moral price to pay for trading away loyalty (DD) in future loss of assets.

Don't fool yourself. Masai loved Siakam and FVV many times more than he did DD and that's why he held onto them until their trade value expired to 0 and near crumbs

Technically, we didn't even need to trade Siakam, he wanted to stay. It was Masai who didn't want to pay him and soured the relationship. So I guess he didn't love Siakam enough.

[RoteSchroder]

Imagine thinking where is nothing to do but wait until the next rebuild when you have 4 guys under 25 capable of posting 20 points, a solid C, and now what is looking like a deep bench. Christ, we just added 5 rookies to the team and 4 have shown to not be overwhelmed and the 5th we all know is going to need 2 years in the 905.

Not to mention all our 1sts and an extra from Indy.

He'll, we have the leading score from the draft 1 year ago and got him at #13. Now no one would expect that to continue but it shows you CAN add outside the top 5.

Keep adding talent and building this new culture.

This is one of the best collection of young NBA talent in Raptors history. The only other time I can think of having future prospects with comparable value is having Vince/Tmac at the same time.

Vince/Tmac vs Barrett/IQ/Scottie/Gradey/Mogbo/Shead/Ja'Kobe/Battle...(Battle being a Hauser-type bench player. I would also peg Ja'Kobe as a future bench player, but it depends on his growth/work ethic, and not convinced Chomche will become an NBA player yet, so not even including him)

[TGM]

People are so impatient - They like rotisserie basketball - How many games has a healthy Raptors team played together? I'm still in the asset acquisition mode and evaluating how a healthy squad plays - It took Boston years to finally win a chip and I'm not interested in shortcuts.

100% this. People don't understand what time it is.

It's not decision making time. Not even close.

It's individual development time, team development time, getting healthy time & evaluating time. All of this season & possibly next season aa well.

The issue is when people think development they think tank. When I’m saying development it’s about looking at your roster and asking if there are missing pieces or misplayed pieces. Look at the years we didn’t have a real center. It wasn’t cause the rest of the roster was bad. Or last year not having any PG depth.

There is a ton of talent on the roster. But questions like is IQ a fit long term. Should Barnes play point forward and elect for a defensive 3 and D guard. That’s where I think this team is at.

This team is better than its record so people got to stop trying to justify or masking their tanking desire and just hide behind the development shield.

[Jadoogar]

Maybe we should just make the playoffs and find a Kawhi level talent with a mid 1st rd pick. It's gonna be hard to out-tank a team like the 1-5 Milwaukee Bucks

LOL you speak like Kawhi level talent would be just sitting there in mid 1st round and would be so easy to spot/pick one even if he did.

That's where Giannis was.

Jokic was picked at the 41st pick, maybe we should trade scottie for a SRP in the upcoming draft?

[mrdressup]

With reasonable health, we are. That's why we are stuck in no man's land.

What are you supposed to do? Our core is all under 25. Do you want to trade our young players for draft capital and worse player?

Then, hope the draft works out to be better than the current core we have now in 5 years' time?

We are definitely not in no man's land

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

Alternatively you can try and seriously outsmart someone in a trade (we haven't been that successful on that front since the Greivis Vasquez trade) or pick an all-star or two out of the middle of the first round. To ever be in contention gain will require some top 10 level talent and stars. We currently would need a top level PG and defensive force at C (stretch type or playmaker). There's time to try and acquire that if we can develop enough assets package them to be included with first round picks. Ideally I would love a top tier PG with leadership skills.

[kalel123]

What are you supposed to do? Our core is all under 25. Do you want to trade our young players for draft capital and worse player?

Then, hope the draft works out to be better than the current core we have now in 5 years' time?

We are definitely not in no man's land

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

Alternatively you can try and seriously outsmart someone in a trade (we haven't been that successful on that front since the Greivis Vasquez trade) or pick an all-star or two out of the middle of the first round. To ever be in contention gain will require some top 10 level talent and stars. We currently would need a top level PG and defensive force at C (stretch type or playmaker). There's time to try and acquire that if we can develop enough assets package them to be included with first round picks. Ideally I would love a top tier PG with leadership skills.

AKA long, complicated, and painful intervention. (no matter which way you lean) Not 100% impossible but very difficult to pull off, relies way too much on luck, and prone to unanticipated problems, which I'm not sure you can trust this FO to resolve any more. And what makes it doubly frustrating again: it was entirely preventable and we could've been ahead of this thing by a mile. Will see what happens I guess.

[Tripod]

In the end, trading away starting level talent...like Yak...just to tank is dumb. Trading away Brown or Boucher....completely different story. Adding more picks in the future(get back 2027 and later picks) will help keep a pipeline of young cheap guys coming.

[GLF]

Imagine thinking where is nothing to do but wait until the next rebuild when you have 4 guys under 25 capable of posting 20 points, a solid C, and now what is looking like a deep bench. Christ, we just added 5 rookies to the team and 4 have shown to not be overwhelmed and the 5th we all know is going to need 2 years in the 905.

Not to mention all our 1sts and an extra from Indy.

He'll, we have the leading score from the draft 1 year ago and got him at #13. Now no one would expect that to continue but it shows you CAN add outside the top 5.

Keep adding talent and building this new culture.

Thank you. Being a fan that looks at the game this way must be hell lol. It’s literally contender or tank and no in between. They use no man’s land and treadmill so loosely lol. If you aren’t a contender you’re in no man’s land to them and you should tank. I can’t tell anyone how to be a fan or how to enjoy the game, but I’m glad I’m not one of those fans.

It seems like they can never enjoy the here and now and the journey. All they think about and talk about is tanking. We have RJ playing amazing, Gradey taking a big leap and looking like way more than just a shooter which raises his ceiling big time, our second round draft picks looking like they belong and can be long term bench players for us and they’re all young. We haven’t even seen IQ for more than a half and Scottie alongside RJ and IQ.

So much fun stuff going on with the team and so much to look forward to, but all certain people on this board can do is live in the past and talk about tanking. I don’t get it and never will. I personally wouldn’t enjoy watching ball if that’s the way my mind worked 24/7 lol. But hey to each their own

[MEDIC]

Imagine thinking where is nothing to do but wait until the next rebuild when you have 4 guys under 25 capable of posting 20 points, a solid C, and now what is looking like a deep bench. Christ, we just added 5 rookies to the team and 4 have shown to not be overwhelmed and the 5th we all know is going to need 2 years in the 905.

Not to mention all our 1sts and an extra from Indy.

He'll, we have the leading score from the draft 1 year ago and got him at #13. Now no one would expect that to continue but it shows you CAN add outside the top 5.

Keep adding talent and building this new culture.

Thank you. Being a fan that looks at the game this way must be hell lol. It’s literally contender or tank and no in between. They use no man’s land and treadmill so loosely lol. If you aren’t a contender you’re in no man’s land to them and you should tank. I can’t tell anyone how to be a fan or how to enjoy the game, but I’m glad I’m not one of those fans.

"No man's land" and "treadmill" used to be words used for middling veteran playoff teams who had very little youth and no good draft picks in the near future.

People really stretch the definition sometimes.

Personally, I enjoy watching organic growth more than anything. I love watching people grow and get better at things. Winning a championship after watching the young players grow an develop in front of your eyes is the most gratifying way to win one in my eyes.

[deck]

With reasonable health, we are. That's why we are stuck in no man's land.

What are you supposed to do? Our core is all under 25. Do you want to trade our young players for draft capital and worse player?

Then, hope the draft works out to be better than the current core we have now in 5 years' time?

We are definitely not in no man's land

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

Typical apologist response. Always fail to look at the entire picture and miss the point entirely. It's not so much about what's supposed to be done about it but the fact that Masai Ujiri put us there and it was entirely preventable. Once you are there, it's way too late to do anything. That's the whole point of being in no man's land. Not quite good enough and not quite bad enough with no obvious way out without some long, complicated, and painful intervention. You just have to ride it out for years to the next rebuild and just pray the FO don't make another painful mistake(s) until we get there.

How do you reconcile your position with the reality of how we won a championship in 2019 less than 6 years ago? You've stated multiple times that this team is stuck in no mans land, but the simple fact is we have more up side now than we did in 2015. And yes, I realize the many things that had to go right for us to win in 2019, and without the Kawhi trade we would not have won. But even without the Kawhi trade and the championship, 2014 to 2020 is by far the most successful this franchise has even been, and there is no other period in franchise history that is even close.

It seems ironic that you are calling out other posters for not seeing the whole picture while in the same breath you are dismissing an entire branch of possible franchise building strategy; the same strategy which less than 6 years ago did lead to a championship, and the most successful era of Raptors basketball.

Certainly Masai could have pulled the trigger on the rebuild / reset earlier, and I agree that almost certainly would have resulted in greater returns, but the hyperbole about that hole we are is overstated. And the premise that the only path to contention is to tank until you have a Flagg level prospect is proven false within the past 10 years of our own organization, and is repeatably proven false by many franchises that have been in the lottery for more than a decade.

[GLF]

Imagine thinking where is nothing to do but wait until the next rebuild when you have 4 guys under 25 capable of posting 20 points, a solid C, and now what is looking like a deep bench. Christ, we just added 5 rookies to the team and 4 have shown to not be overwhelmed and the 5th we all know is going to need 2 years in the 905.

Not to mention all our 1sts and an extra from Indy.

He'll, we have the leading score from the draft 1 year ago and got him at #13. Now no one would expect that to continue but it shows you CAN add outside the top 5.

Keep adding talent and building this new culture.

Thank you. Being a fan that looks at the game this way must be hell lol. It’s literally contender or tank and no in between. They use no man’s land and treadmill so loosely lol. If you aren’t a contender you’re in no man’s land to them and you should tank. I can’t tell anyone how to be a fan or how to enjoy the game, but I’m glad I’m not one of those fans.

"No man's land" and "treadmill" used to be words used for middling veteran playoff teams who had very little youth and no good draft picks in the near future.

People really stretch the definition sometimes.

Personally, I enjoy watching organic growth more than anything. I love watching people grow and get better at things. Winning a championship after watching the young players grow a develop in front of your eyes is the most gratifying way to win one in my eyes.

Yes to everything you said. Couldn’t agree more. I truly do not know when treadmill and no man’s land became what it became. You would swear this team is a whole bunch of 34 year old’s who have been a play in team for 4-5 years straight and have no future draft picks. I just don’t get it. You would swear we don’t have young players who are exceeding expectations right now.

Gradey is literally looking like he could eventually be a star to borderline star. No one expected that. We all just hoped he would be a decent starter in this league when it was all said and done. He raises our ceiling if he keeps playing like this. RJ has taken steps beyond just being efficient, such as his playmaking and pick and roll play. Scottie was slowly starting to find his groove before getting injured. Darko may have saved Ochai’s career. And that’s not even all of it. Like come on. There is nothing “treadmill” about this team. At least not yet.

But people want to be negative bc it’s their favourite past time. So bc right now things are going good with the team, minus not winning, they have to bring up the future and who isn’t going to be a fit when the team is actually trying to win etc, like they have some crystal ball. They can’t complain about losing bc they’re supposed to be those fans who want us to lose, so they have to find something to complain about lol. It’s very weird behaviour but I digress. I’ve said enough today lol

[MEDIC]

We have already won a championship with a hired gun. I am hoping we can now win one with a team (& players) that we have been watching improve & grow for several years.