Retro Player of the Year 1984-85 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

[falcolombardi]

I want to vote but i am in a hurry in work right now
Will edit this comment with my vote later on the day (placeholder)

OPOY
1-magic johnson. Best offensive engine of the decade, best offenses in the playoffs, better playoff player than bird
2- bird. Definetely Worse playoff engine than magic as is usually the case, another kind ofdissapointing postseason
3-isiah thomas. Thoughy about moses comeback/last prime season too. But while i think isiah is a player who is at times overcredited for "led a team to two rings!", beat jordan, magic and bird!" He still was a playoff riser and a strong
scoring/passer dual threat

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Mark Eaton. I am incredibly low on him translating to the modern game where his limitations in offense and perineter mobility would be bigger deals. But in 80's nba his defense was kind of trascendent

2. Hakeem Olajuwon. One of the best talents ever. Probably in a league of his own alongside eaton even before hitting his prime.

He and eaton were ridiculously robbed fron a bunch of dpoy's because the nba in the 80's kinda had the basketball knowledge equivalent of thinkinh the sun orbits around the earth with guards vs bigs defensively.

Those jordan, robertson, cooper dpoy awards remain some of the worst awards ever given straight up.


3. Robert parish

I am unsure after top 2 but one of the two bigs ancjoring the strong celtics defense seems like a decent pick. Honestly open to mchale, buck williams, etc

Player of the Year

1-magic i think he is so clearly ahead of bird and co as offensive players that he is a easy pick for me here. No monster two way player yet who can take this spot off him this year

2- bird. is kind of a weak year for 2nd so bird goes herr despite a relatively meh playoffs as i am not quite surr slightly post prime moses is as good as him now. Mostly on the basis of a strong regular season and a finals run

3- moses. Impressive performance in the playoffs against a strong bucks team. Nice regular season. Nice impact stats

4- sidney moncrief. Bucks were not as great in post season but the regular season was really great and his offensive numbers as a all D/hof level caliber defensive wing is a very appealing profile. Relatively easy pick for me above jordan at this stage among wings

5- isiah thomas. For leading a very, very elite pistons offense. Albeit i am not as huge on him as a decent efficiency, small ball dominant guard who is decidedly not as talented as chris paul so he kind of has a certain sub-superstar ceiling for me

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Larry Bird - Going into the ECF, Bird is a pretty easy #1 but then he breaks his hand in a stupid bar fight and struggles the rest of the way in the 9 most important games of the season. However, he still plays like a star against the Lakers in the Finals. This isn't Kobe in 2004 or Lebron in 2011 kind of underperformance.

You are saying that entirely because of pace.

Basic basketball-reference pace adjustment takes Bird from 23.8/8.8/5 averages to 20/7.5/4.2 averages, with worse scoring efficiency and defence than what Lebron provided, against a worse defence. And Bird was not the best player in either of his two preceding series either.

The only reason we can say Bird was not as much of a disappointment, apart from high pace propping up his raw production totals, is that postseason disappointment is reflexively assumed with Bird. Yeah, his Finals were not good… but they might have been better than his 1981 Finals all the same, and better than numerous others in his postseason history, so how much of a disappointment could these Finals really be, right.

According to Ben Taylor's tracking of the 2011 Finals, Lebron was the worst defender of all the players with major minutes. I watched the entire 1985 series not long ago and don't recall Bird struggling on defense. So I'd say Bird almost certainly has an edge defensively.

If we adjust to per 75 possessions, Magic also looks a lot worse as do most players in that era. I'm all in favor of keeping pace in mind but you also have to give a slight bump to players who maintain the same per 75 averages but play more possessions. That said, I was very close to putting Kareem #1 but I still think Bird built a rather huge gap in the RS. Bird was the best RS player in 1985 and that is still worth something even when I emphasize the PS. Only place pace estimates are really relevant in this project is if some candidates played on very fast paced teams and others not. For example, someone like isiah Thomas is probably underrated in their title years because the Pistons played very slow.

[AEnigma]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Larry Bird - Going into the ECF, Bird is a pretty easy #1 but then he breaks his hand in a stupid bar fight and struggles the rest of the way in the 9 most important games of the season. However, he still plays like a star against the Lakers in the Finals. This isn't Kobe in 2004 or Lebron in 2011 kind of underperformance.

You are saying that entirely because of pace.

Basic basketball-reference pace adjustment takes Bird from 23.8/8.8/5 averages to 20/7.5/4.2 averages, with worse scoring efficiency and defence than what Lebron provided, against a worse defence. And Bird was not the best player in either of his two preceding series either.

The only reason we can say Bird was not as much of a disappointment, apart from high pace propping up his raw production totals, is that postseason disappointment is reflexively assumed with Bird. Yeah, his Finals were not good… but they might have been better than his 1981 Finals all the same, and better than numerous others in his postseason history, so how much of a disappointment could these Finals really be, right.

According to Ben Taylor's tracking of the 2011 Finals, Lebron was the worst defender of all the players with major minutes. I watched the entire 1985 series not long ago and don't recall Bird struggling on defense. So I'd say Bird almost certainly has an edge defensively.

Okay, and plenty of us disagree with that hyperbole — possibly even Ben himself, given that what you are citing was put together long before he had established his “Thinking Basketball” brand. (For example, in the 2010 project, he voted Jordan third overall in 1985. Eight years later, he said he thought Hakeem was the better rookie.)

I was very close to putting Kareem #1 but I still think Bird built a rather huge gap in the RS. Bird was the best RS player in 1985 and that is still worth something even when I emphasize the PS. Only place pace estimates are really relevant in this project is if some candidates played on very fast paced teams and others not. For example, someone like isiah Thomas is probably underrated in their title years because the Pistons played very slow.

Pace estimates are relevant when you look at one Finals played at a 103 pace and another played at an 86.5 pace and treat the resultant box score production as equivalent.

If people want to over-weigh Bird’s regular season, they are free to do so. But he did not play like an MVP in the final three rounds, or at least not to an extent where he was more of one than what we saw from multiple other players.

[Djoker]

Okay, and plenty of us disagree with that hyperbole — possibly even Ben himself, given that what you are citing was put together long before he had established his “Thinking Basketball” brand. (For example, in the 2010 project, he voted Jordan third overall in 1985. Eight years later, he said he thought Hakeem was the better rookie.)

I don't disagree with it at all and don't find it hyperbolic in the slightest. It matches my impression that Lebron was a net negative on defense in the 2011 Finals.

Anyways Bird in the 1985 Finals definitely didn't underperform as much as Lebron in 2011. I won't expand on 2011 Lebron because it just isn't that important here.

Pace estimates are relevant when you look at one Finals played at a 103 pace and another played at an 86.5 pace and treat the resultant box score production as equivalent.

Magic and Kareem's Lakers played at a higher pace than Bird's Celtics.

If people want to over-weigh Bird’s regular season, they are free to do so. But he did not play like an MVP in the final three rounds, or at least not to an extent where he was more of one than what we saw from multiple other players.

I agree that Magic and Kareem had better PS runs but for me not by enough of a margin to overturn Bird's RS edge.

[kcktiny]

Eaton retired in 93 so even if true, doesn't fit the time frame.

You asked for a contemporary player. I mentioned one from the 90s, that played just 6 years after Eaton played. You're telling me it doesn't fit the time frame.

I asked about Eaton specifically from just one season - the 1984-85 season, the season of this thread. Not once but twice you've mentioned Jerry Sloan.

Sloan didn't coach Utah until after the start of the 1988-89 season, when Eaton was already into his 30s, and 4 years after Eaton's 456 blocked shot season. Frank Layden coached Eaton his first 6 years in the league.

[AEnigma]

Okay, and plenty of us disagree with that hyperbole — possibly even Ben himself, given that what you are citing was put together long before he had established his “Thinking Basketball” brand. (For example, in the 2010 project, he voted Jordan third overall in 1985. Eight years later, he said he thought Hakeem was the better rookie.)

I don't disagree with it at all and don't find it hyperbolic in the slightest. It matches my impression that Lebron was a net negative on defense in the 2011 Finals.

Anyways Bird in the 1985 Finals definitely didn't underperform as much as Lebron in 2011. I won't expand on 2011 Lebron because it just isn't that important here.

I agree he did not underperform as much, but exclusively because his postseason standards have always been drastically lower than that of any other top fifteen player.

Pace estimates are relevant when you look at one Finals played at a 103 pace and another played at an 86.5 pace and treat the resultant box score production as equivalent.

Magic and Kareem's Lakers played at a higher pace than Bird's Celtics.

And they played at the same exact pace in the Finals. What is your point.

If people want to over-weigh Bird’s regular season, they are free to do so. But he did not play like an MVP in the final three rounds, or at least not to an extent where he was more of one than what we saw from multiple other players.

I agree that Magic and Kareem had better PS runs but for me not by enough of a margin to overturn Bird's RS edge.

Which is fine. My objection is to the gestures to Bird being better than he was in the postseason. Just because his team managed to win half of his worst games does not mean those games did not happen, or that those bad games would not have more dramatically hampered most other teams in the league / throughout history.

[Djoker]

Bird's PS struggles are honestly overblown. His early 80's struggles are understandable given he wasn't in his prime yet. From 1984-1988 which was his prime, he had one poor series against the Pistons in the 1988 ECF and one subpar series against the Lakers in the 1985 Finals off the top of my head. The rest of the time he was pretty much at or above his RS level. Most other all time greats had something similar.

What separates Bird in a negative way is his extremely short prime. Not that he was some unprecedented choker in the PS.

[AEnigma]

His 1985 conference finals was worse than his Finals — but his team won 4-1 regardless.

And more broadly, his postseasons were demonstrably not “at or above his regular season level” on any consistent basis. He on average improves in 1984 and 1986, but he declines on average in the other three years, such that he clearly declines over that five year period as well.

[One_and_Done]

His 1985 conference finals was worse than his Finals — but his team won 4-1 regardless.

And more broadly, his postseasons were demonstrably was not “at or above his regular season level” on any consistent basis. He on average improves in 1984 and 1986, but he declines on average in the other three years, such that he clearly declines over that five year period as well.

There definitely isn't enough scrutiny of Bird's postseason performance. He wasn't dropping Kobe level stinkers, but there was definitely drop off some years. Between that and his modest longevity, it's an open question if guys like KG or Curry should be ranked over him. What's helping him is the incredible peak lift he gives you.

Bird is another guy who too many people view with Rose tinted glasses because of nostalgia. Bird was a legend, but his actual performance doesn't always match that rep.

[Cavsfansince84]

Bird's PS struggles are honestly overblown. His early 80's struggles are understandable given he wasn't in his prime yet. From 1984-1988 which was his prime, he had one poor series against the Pistons in the 1988 ECF and one subpar series against the Lakers in the 1985 Finals off the top of my head. The rest of the time he was pretty much at or above his RS level. Most other all time greats had something similar.

What separates Bird in a negative way is his extremely short prime. Not that he was some unprecedented choker in the PS.

I can't buy that Bird's prime started in 84 at age 27. Sure he seemed to have gained a new level offensively speaking in the 84-88 years but we're talking about a guy who was top 2 in mvp voting every year from 81-83. Same way I'd say LeBron's prime started by 08 at the latest when he was 23. I don't think that's a valid way to excuse any of Bird's playoff showings before 84. Same as I wouldn't do it for Magic either when he was 3 years younger than Bird.

[One_and_Done]

Bird's PS struggles are honestly overblown. His early 80's struggles are understandable given he wasn't in his prime yet. From 1984-1988 which was his prime, he had one poor series against the Pistons in the 1988 ECF and one subpar series against the Lakers in the 1985 Finals off the top of my head. The rest of the time he was pretty much at or above his RS level. Most other all time greats had something similar.

What separates Bird in a negative way is his extremely short prime. Not that he was some unprecedented choker in the PS.

I can't buy that Bird's prime started in 84 at age 27. Sure he seemed to have gained a new level offensively speaking in the 84-88 years but we're talking about a guy who was top 2 in mvp voting every year from 81-83. Same way I'd say LeBron's prime started by 08 at the latest when he was 23. I don't think that's a valid way to excuse any of Bird's playoff showings before 84. Same as I wouldn't do it for Magic when he was 3 years younger than Bird.

Plus if his prime was only 4 years long, Bird should get penalised for that. Bird's prime was 80-87-ish IMO. He was still good in 88, bit those back and foot issues had started to affect him a bit. Peak? I dunno. 84 maybe?

[Cavsfansince84]

Plus if his prime was only 4 years long, Bird should get penalised for that. Bird's prime was 80-87-ish IMO. He was still good in 88, bit those back and foot issues had started to affect him a bit. Peak? I dunno. 84 maybe?

88 is still definitely part of his prime imo but you have to factor in how his body slowly broke down from like 83 forwards on top of other injuries which happened before then. He just didn't have a body that could deal with his playstyle and his own antics or training style.

[Djoker]

Bird's PS struggles are honestly overblown. His early 80's struggles are understandable given he wasn't in his prime yet. From 1984-1988 which was his prime, he had one poor series against the Pistons in the 1988 ECF and one subpar series against the Lakers in the 1985 Finals off the top of my head. The rest of the time he was pretty much at or above his RS level. Most other all time greats had something similar.

What separates Bird in a negative way is his extremely short prime. Not that he was some unprecedented choker in the PS.

I can't buy that Bird's prime started in 84 at age 27. Sure he seemed to have gained a new level offensively speaking in the 84-88 years but we're talking about a guy who was top 2 in mvp voting every year from 81-83. Same way I'd say LeBron's prime started by 08 at the latest when he was 23. I don't think that's a valid way to excuse any of Bird's playoff showings before 84. Same as I wouldn't do it for Magic either when he was 3 years younger than Bird.

Maybe 1983 would have been a prime year if he didn't get hurt and sick in the PS but he clearly improved in year 5 which is 1984. Just much better statistically. He was 27 then but that isn't unheard of that players get much better around age 27. The early 80's had weaker competition. I don't think early 80's Bird finishes top 2 in MVP voting in any year in the mid to late 80's.

[ardee]

PoY

1. Magic Johnson

2. Larry Bird: I was going to vote Bird at no. 1 here, because I didn't think his postseason dropoff was THAT big, but what AEnigma said about pace convinced me. I still think he was easily the best player in the RS but Magic was still very very good, and he maintained his level all the way to a title, so Bird gets the short end of the stick. In a way, this year reminds me of 2016, where the RS MVP has his level drop right at the end enough to lose the top spot. Bird'll get his revenge next year though, all right...

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Maybe his final top five year. If it is, it'll still be 16 straight which I would say even LeBron can't match (thanks to 2019). Very very impressive stuff in the Finals. His Playoff stats are deceptive because the Lakers were blowing out so many teams it had Kareem's minutes down: he averaged 24 mpg in the first round for example.

4. Michael Jordan: Outside of next year when he's injured this'll be the lowest he'll be for the rest of his Chicago career. Tbh I am almost reticient to even have him this low, it's debatable in my mind whether you'd take a 38 year old Kareem over him.

5. Sidney Moncrief: Isiah seems like the popular pick here but I've had Sidney over him the entire 80s and that won't change. Just much clearer impact, still elite defender, best player on a very good Bucks team.

OPoY

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan

DPoY

1. Mark Eaton
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Kevin McHale

[Cavsfansince84]

Maybe 1983 would have been a prime year if he didn't get hurt and sick in the PS but he clearly improved in year 5 which is 1984. Just much better statistically. He was 27 then but that isn't unheard of that players get much better around age 27. The early 80's had weaker competition. I don't think early 80's Bird finishes top 2 in MVP voting in any year in the mid to late 80's.

I still don't think you can excuse all his playoff series before the age of 27 with 'he wasn't in his prime yet' when discussing a player. That's ludicrous imo but to each their own. Finishing top 2 in mvp voting isn't exactly the litmus test for a player being in their prime yet either(even for a top 15 player).

[OhayoKD]

His 1985 conference finals was worse than his Finals — but his team won 4-1 regardless.

And more broadly, his postseasons were demonstrably was not “at or above his regular season level” on any consistent basis. He on average improves in 1984 and 1986, but he declines on average in the other three years, such that he clearly declines over that five year period as well.

There definitely isn't enough scrutiny of Bird's postseason performance. He wasn't dropping Kobe level stinkers, but there was definitely drop off some years. Between that and his modest longevity, it's an open question if guys like KG or Curry should be ranked over him. What's helping him is the incredible peak lift he gives you.

Bird is another guy who too many people view with Rose tinted glasses because of nostalgia. Bird was a legend, but his actual performance doesn't always match that rep.

What's helping is people being too lazy to check if their impressions actually line-up with the tape.

PoY

1. Magic Johnson

2. Larry Bird: I was going to vote Bird at no. 1 here, because I didn't think his postseason dropoff was THAT big, but what AEnigma said about pace convinced me. I still think he was easily the best player in the RS but Magic was still very very good, and he maintained his level all the way to a title, so Bird gets the short end of the stick. In a way, this year reminds me of 2016, where the RS MVP has his level drop right at the end enough to lose the top spot. Bird'll get his revenge next year though, all right...

If by get his revenge you mean not be the best performer his own team, sure.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 16 approved voters: Djoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, LA Bird, ShaqAttac, ILikeShaiGuys, Penbeast, OhayoKD, falcolombardi, McBubbles, Paulluxx, homecourtloss, One_and_Done, trelos, Ardee, and Narigo. DJoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, trelos, Ardee, IlikeShaiGuys, and falcolombardi also voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1984-85 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Magic Johnson (4)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Magic Johnson   6   1   0    33    0.943
2. Larry Bird    1   4   2    19    0.543
3. Isiah Thomas    0   2   1    7   0.200
4. Michael Jordan  0   0   3   3    0.086
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   0   0   1    1    0.029

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Mark Eaton (2) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Mark Eaton    7   0   0    35    1.000
2. Hakeem Olajuwon    0   6   1    19   0.543
3. Rick Mahorn    0   1   1    4    0.114
4. Kevin McHale   0   0   2    2    0.057
4. Robert Parish   0   0   2    2    0.057
6. Sidney Moncrief   0   0   1    1    0.029

Retro Player of the Year — Magic Johnson (2)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Magic Johnson  10  5  1  0  0   140   0.875
2. Larry Bird  4  7  1  3  1   104    0.650
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2 2 7 3 0   78   0.488
4. Isiah Thomas  0  2  2  0  6   30   0.188
5. Michael Jordan  0  0  3  4  1   28   0.175
6. Moses Malone   0  0  2  2  1   17   0.106
7. Hakeem Olajuwon   0  0  0  2  4   10   0.063
8. Sidney Moncrief   0  0  0  2  3   9   0.056

In the prior project, there were 21 votes, with penbeast overlapping. With his prior ballot removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 35 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Magic Johnson  16  19  1  0  0   298   0.851
2. Larry Bird  18  13  1  3  1   286    0.817
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2 2 19 6 2   149   0.426
4. Michael Jordan  0  0  11  10  4   89   0.254
5. Isiah Thomas  0  2  2  2  14   44   0.126
6. Moses Malone   0  0  2  8  2   36   0.103
7. Sidney Moncrief   0  0  0  5  7   22   0.063
8. Hakeem Olajuwon   0  0  0  2  4   10   0.029
9. Alex English   0  0  0  0  2   2   0.006

1986 thread will open shortly.

[OhayoKD]

His 1985 conference finals was worse than his Finals — but his team won 4-1 regardless.

And more broadly, his postseasons were demonstrably was not “at or above his regular season level” on any consistent basis. He on average improves in 1984 and 1986, but he declines on average in the other three years, such that he clearly declines over that five year period as well.

There definitely isn't enough scrutiny of Bird's postseason performance. He wasn't dropping Kobe level stinkers, but there was definitely drop off some years. Between that and his modest longevity, it's an open question if guys like KG or Curry should be ranked over him. What's helping him is the incredible peak lift he gives you.

Bird is another guy who too many people view with Rose tinted glasses because of nostalgia. Bird was a legend, but his actual performance doesn't always match that rep.

What's helping is people being too lazy to check if their impressions actually line-up with the tape.

PoY

1. Magic Johnson

2. Larry Bird: I was going to vote Bird at no. 1 here, because I didn't think his postseason dropoff was THAT big, but what AEnigma said about pace convinced me. I still think he was easily the best player in the RS but Magic was still very very good, and he maintained his level all the way to a title, so Bird gets the short end of the stick. In a way, this year reminds me of 2016, where the RS MVP has his level drop right at the end enough to lose the top spot. Bird'll get his revenge next year though, all right...

If by get his revenge you mean not be the best performer in his own team in the most important series? Sure.

Rim-Load, 1986, Game 5

Mchale - 16
Walton - 11
Parish - 7
Bird - 6

See that guy nearly tripling in usage at the most important aspect of defense? He's also...

-> a much better man defender
-> a much more switchable defender
-> a better rebounder
-> a better ball-handler (in case you're wondering, this is more important for gravity than Bird's shooting)
-> scored more points on significantly better efficiency

Why does your top 5 peak struggle so much being his own team's best player when a title is on the line?

[Elpolo_14]

This is My tracking of Larry bird in the final against The Lakers ( lead by magic ) 1985 Game 6 Elimination game with home court advantage

NOTE - I only track on ball play or great offball play , I didn't track all the off ball movement that didn't get to impact the floor directly ( both offense and defense )

Larry bird tracking game 6 1985 final ( with the film available )

Watch on YouTube

;t=25s

EDITED - SORRY GUYS, I edit my post bcs I made some mistake on DTOs/EDTOs ( I was counting if it happen in possession instead of how many defender was affected per possesion ) part due some misunderstanding on my part but I retrack everythings and added ADAs ( Additional defender affected ).

Playmaling
DOUBLE / TRIPLE / DTOs / EDTOs / Creation / Screen assist (SC) / ADAs
Scoring
FGA / FGM / Midrange ( MID) / Rim (R) / Post (P)/ put back (PB) / Three ( T )/ OCT ( offensive contest) / UOCT (uncontest)
Defense
PPs – EPP/IPP / PPDs – EPPD/IPPD / DCT Defensive contest / NDCT non contest/ HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD

3:17 – Larry bird catch the ball at the short corner and shot it with worthy contested ( FGA1 MID1 OCT1 )
3:39 – Larry bird try to putback on DJ shot with not one around ( FGA2 PB1 UOCT1 )
4.02 – Larry bird post up James and get double pass to DJ wild Open didn’t shoot ( DOUBLE1 DTOs1-2 EDTOs1 Creation1 )
4.19 – Larry transition midrange on Kareem face ( FGA3 FGM1 UOCT2 MID2 )
4;40 – Bird get lost offball in the paint lefting Kurt alone and can’t closes out in time. The contest wasn’t close to the ball so I will rule no contest ( IPP1 PP1 NDCT1 )
4;52 – bird bring ball up can shot a midrange on the elbow contest by James but to short ( FGA4 CT2 MID3 )
5;36 – bird fake drive to basket saw the Double team coming then pass Mchale ( DOUBLE2 Creation2 DTOs3-4 EDTOs2 )
6;16 – Bird fake 3 make the defense rotate pass the ball to DJ wild open lane who magic need to come help defense. BJ didn’t make shot but get foul by kareem ( DTOs5 Creation3 )
7;36 – Bird swicth with MChale against Magic in the paint and foce magic to make a tough fall away shot which he miss ( PPs2 EPPs1 DCT1 )
8;06 – bird catch the ball on the post get double but spin to the basket still get double team with KAJ in the paint tried a hook shot but miss ( DOUBLE3-4 OCT2 FGA5 P1 )
8.40 – Bird run to help against KAJ on the Post not making it in time but still force KAJ to make bad pass ( HPD1 EHPD1 )
10;1 - Bird block out James lane to make open lane for Mchele to rebound and finish at the rim ( SC1 ADAs1 )
10;50 – BIRD Get ball at 3pt line and pass to DJ on the short corner
12;06 – bird catch shoot midrange wild open ( 5FGA FGM2 MID4 UOCT3 )
12;20 – Bird switch on magic because scott was double team James lefting is man wild open ( PPD1 IPPDs1 )
12;35 – bird get the ball parish cone screen James ( bird man defender ) then bird fake shot make defense rotate pass ball to DJ wild open lane/shot drive but miss the shot( Creation4 DTO6 )
13.00 – bird was alone against KAJ and James guard james force him to pass the ball then he switch on Kaj and contest his shot ( PPs3-4 IPPs2 DCT1 )
14;43 – bird catch the ball on the post and drive to a double team pull up jamp shot but he travel before the shot attemps ( Double5 ) ( FGA6 )
18;18 – bird on magic but magic pass the ball in the paint. Bird go help parish in paint but leave Magic wild open the magic take the ball bird wasn’t fast enough to closes out ( PPDs2 IPPDs2 )
18;47 – Bird come out on McAdoo at the 3pt line making him pass the ball in paint ( PPDs3 )
20;00 – Bird guard mcadoo but collide with DJ on the screen trying to close up on Mcadoo leaving him wild open for a shot but miss ( PPDs4 IPPDs3 )
20;05 – Mitch offensive rebound MCadoo miss and get double by bird who come help mchale but mitch find James for open shot and he make it ( HPD2 IHPD1 )
20;24 – bird get ball at 3pt line get closes put by magic pass to parish leading to foul
21;19 – bird guard MCdoo on post get spin and blow by easily but Mcdoo silp his ball out himself making it a no shot ( PPDs5 IPPDs4 )
21;50 – bird switch with scott for cooper but bird could close up in time for cooper shot but he still miss ( PPDs6 NDCT2 )
23;20 – Bird is in the Paint with mchale while bird guard kurt and Mchale guard James. James get the ball and bird go help double but James still make his shot. Bird didn’t jump contest only mchale did ( HPD3 NDCT3 PPs5 IPPs2 )
23;40 – bird great pass for mchale at the paint
FINISH Q1
Q2 only start after 7.57minute left ( 4.03 minut at the start of Q2 not here )

25:30 – bird backdown cooper on post up and make the shot ( FGA7 FGM3 P2 UOCT4 )
27;26 – parish screen cooper who was guarding bird make bird free to cut to basket and get the ball there to score ( FGA8 FGM4 R1 UOCT5 )
28.32 – James get loses of ball leave bird open in paint to get ball and score . to far to contest ( FGA9 FGM5 R2 UOCT6)
28;58 – boxout cooper on for the rebound. He win the boxout try to putback but miss ( FGA10 PB2 UOCT7 )
30;25 – Bird post up at the short corner get double and pass to DJ wild open in paint but all other defender collapse on him he take back attempt but miss( DTOs7-8 EDTOs3 Double6 Creation5 )
30;32 – bird get Offensive rebound give to DJ and block the defender lane making DJ easy to score ( SC 2 ADAs2 )
30;43 – bird sitting in the paint not catching up to Mcadoo at the elbow leaving him wild open ( PPDs7 IPPDs5 NDCT4 )
30;59 – Bird post up got foul by cooper leg
32;30 – bird pass the ball to parish lead to foul
33;20 – bird push magic for the D-rebound. The ball went out so celtic got ball
FINISH Q2
34;45 – Larry switch on KAJ on the paint but he can guard KAJ making Parish come help but KAJ still Score ( PPs6 IPPS3 NDCT5 )
35;04 – Bird block defender( Kurt ) lane making parish putback easier ( SC 3 ADAs3 )
35.46 – Bird try gamble steal on magic in the fast break didn’t work
36;34 – Bird spin move on james and lay it up ( FGA11 FGM6 R3 OCT3 )
36;51 – magic fall bird guarding him Mchale come to take the ball leaving james wild open. Bird try to closes out but slip
38;33 – Kurt get offense rebound but bird closes up to guard him on the paint contest his shot with Parish help ( PPs7 EPPs2 )
38;43 – Bird drive on James to Magic double team but pass get deflect ( Double7 )
39;05 – Bird contested fade away jumper on cooper ( ( FGA12 FGM7 MID5 OCT4 )
39;39 – bird pull up jump shot on James but miss with late contest ( FGA13 MID6 UOCT8 )
39;47 – fast break bird guard James but James blow by bird for the dunk assist by Magic ( PPS8 IPPs4 )
40;00 – bird offball catch-shoot midrange contest by magic and miss ( FGA14 MID7 OCT5)
41;23 – bird win the boxout against james for O-reb but he tip it to KAJ
41;30 – Scoot blow by danny and pull up on bird face- bird did not contest and literally move out of the way ( PPs9 IPPs5 NDCT6 )
43;19 – Magic drive to basket bird come to interrupt but Magic shot it to short and miss still get his own rebound ( PPs10 )
43;30 – Kaj miss shot attempt Kurt is there to rebound but Bird doesn’t closes out making an easy put back for Kurt ( PPs11 IPPs6 )
43;43 – bird fake on james make him jump then drive reverse lay up ( FGA15 FGM8 R4 OCT6 )
46;05 – Bird push his opponent to this teammate lane making DJ not able to catch Scott for a wild Open shot ( dumb-move 1 )
47;20 - bird try to help against KAJ in paint but didn;t get there in time
47;24 – Bird pass to mchale to create his own shot on the post with KAJ defending him tight and Mchale make the shot
47;41 – bird make good help double on magic with mchale and closes up to his man fast after the ball leave magic hand ( HPD4 )
48;46 – bird post up but get double pass to open mchale who cut to the basket. Mchale miss ( Double8 Dtos9-10 EDTOs4 Creation6 ) should have pass to wild open DJ with not a single help defender around him
49;11 – Bird offball catch shot on James contest but miss ( ( FGA16 MID8 OCT7)
49;30 – bird get help defense on james and steal the ball ( HPD5 EHPD2 )
52;12 – bird comeback to contest mitch on the paint because mchale was zoning magic - great contest but foul ( PPs 12 DCT2 )
53;27 – Bird moving offball leave Parish open at the rim but pass from webman making parish catch it to slow miss the shot ( EDTO5 DTOs11-12 Creation7 )
FINISH Q3
55;43 – Bird elbow Mchale to the ground while trying to follow Mcadoo offball
55;58 – Bird drive lay up but get block by James ( FGA 17 R5 OCT8 )
57;00 – bird spin move lay up on james ( FGA18 FGM9 R6 OCT9 )
59;23 – Bird get contest against hurt at the rim with Mchale block by the back ( PPs13 EPPs3 DCT3 )`
59;35 – Bird miss the putback after Mchale shot ( FGA19 PB3 UOCT9 )
101;38 – bird fall away shot miss ( FGA20 P3 OCT10 )
103 – bird pass to parish on post but perish get double team and didn’t score ( DTOs11 )
103;47 – bird try to stop mitch drive at the rim but didn’t contest enough. Mitch make the shot ( PPs14 IPPs7 DCT3 )
104;43 – Bird help side on KAJ post up and being the main man contested making him miss the shot ( PPs15 EPPs4 HPD5 EHPD3 DCT4 )
104;56 – mchale miss fast break but bird is there to clean up but got foul
105;59 – Bird fast break lay up but got foul
107;44 – bird great D-reb and pass to parish
107;54 – bird post up get double team leaving DJ and Ainge wild open bird pass to DJ DJ pass to Aigne for the shot but miss it ( EDTOs6-7 DTOs13-14-15 Creation8 Double9 )
110;36 – Bird boxout Cooper for the O-reb and Put back ( FGA 21 FGM10 PB4 UOCT10 )
110;50 – Bird foul cooper on top of the key
112;19 – Bird catch shoot open but miss ( FGA 22 MID OCT11 )
113;07 – Bird denied James at the post making him pass ( PPs 16 )
113;24 – bird wild open 3pt in transaction miss ( FGA23 T1 UOCT11 )
114:55 – aigne drive bring atteition to him and leave bird open in the paint and he make the lay ( FGA24 R5 FGM10 UOCT12 )
116;18 – bird pick up magic at top key. Magic pass the ball and cut bird try to follow offball. Magic take ball blow by bird but parish block the way bird come back on magic. Magic pass to open KAJ cause parish was helping bird ( PPDs8 IPPDs6 )
116;55 – ainge leave KAJ open lane and KAJ cut to the basket fro the point bird wasn’t closes enough to help ( ainge fault )
117;24 – bird help parish against magic and contest the shot ( HPD6 PPs17 DCT5 )
117;33 – bird shoot 3pt with tight contest by Magic and miss ( FGA25 T2 OCT12 )

After this the Game is finish with the blowout bird get take out and end of Q4

Resume of Bird game 6 1985 final ( with some missing Q2 )
Playmaking
DTOs - 15
EDTOs – 7
ADAs - 3
Double - 9
Creation - 8
SC – 3 ( screen assist )

DEFENSE
PPs - 17
EPPs - 4
IPPs - 7
PPDs -8
EPPDs - 0
IPPDs -6
HPD – 6 ( help defense )
EHPD – 3 ( effective help )
IHPD – 1 ( ineffective help )
DCT – 5 ( defensive contest )
NDCT – 6 ( non contest )

Scoring
FGA – 25 ( total is 29 but due to miss film )
FGM – 10 ( total is 12 )
PB – 1 ( 1/3 ) put back
R – 6 ( 6/7 ) Rim or lay up
P – 1 ( 1/3 ) Post play
T – 2 ( 0/2 ) three PT
MID – 3 ( 3/9 ) Midrange
OCT – 12 ( shot attempt that was contested )
UOCT – 12 ( shot attempt that were un contest )
+ 1 offensive Foul so shot didn’t count but still FGA

[OhayoKD]

First let me acknowledge the obvious.

Playmaling
DOUBLE / TRIPLE / DTOs / EDTOs / Creation / Screen assist (SC)
Scoring
FGA / FGM / Midrange ( MID) / Rim (R) / Post (P)/ put back (PB) / Three ( T )/ OCT ( offensive contest) / UOCT (uncontest)
Defense
PPs – EPP/IPP / PPDs – EPPD/IPPD / DCT Defensive contest / NDCT non contest/ HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD

This is a far more comprehensive system than mine or really any I've seen used for tracking basketball players, so kudos.

That said we don't have a possession count and it seems possessions where nothing of note(for elpolo anyway) happened weren't listed. So, we'll estimate. Keeping in mind around 5 minutes of footage weren't available...Bird playing 47/48 minutes for a game with a pace estimate of 97.7 gets us about 85 possessions for Bird on each side of the floor.

This gives us per-possession tallies of about

Playmaking
DTOs - 7 .08
EDTOs – 4 .05
Double - 9 .1
Creation - 7 .08
SC – 3 ( screen assist ) .035

DEFENSE
PPs - 17 .2
EPPs - 4 .05
IPPs - 7 .08
PPDs -8 .09
EPPDs - 0 0
IPPDs -6 .07
HPD – 6 ( help defense ) .07
EHPD – 3 ( effective help ) .035
IHPD – 1 ( ineffective help ) .012
DCT – 5 ( defensive contest ) .06
NDCT – 6 ( non contest ) .07

Scoring
FGA – 25 ( total is 29 but due to miss film )
FGM – 10 ( total is 12 )
PB – 1 ( 1/3 ) put back
R – 6 ( 6/7 ) Rim or lay up
P – 1 ( 1/3 ) Post play
T – 2 ( 0/2 ) three PT
MID – 3 ( 3/9 ) Midrange
OCT – 12 ( shot attempt that was contested ) .14
UOCT – 12 ( shot attempt that were un contest ) .14
+ 1 offensive Foul so shot didn’t count but still FGA

Looks pretty brutal going by the tallies but this is considered a pretty bad performance anyway. Moderately high paint-usage but mostly ineffective, extremely low perimeter usage and still extremely ineffective. Effective with low usage in help. Very little created by the numbers.

I am curious if other eyes will see the ineffective:effective ratio get smaller.