Retro Player of the Year 1985-86 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1985-86.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 21:00PM EST on Thursday, November 7th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

[One_and_Done]

Bird's an easy #1 this year, though it's likely his last time as #1.

[Lebronnygoat]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1985-86.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 21:00PM EST on Thursday, November 7th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

________________________________________
Layaway Voters
* Bad Gatorade

Number 1 is Hakeem
By far better defender than anyone you’ll vote for as one, via paint defense, which is limiting the most efficient and used shot of the 80’s. If you look at how much shots he’s limiting and or negating, and combine that with the scoring level which is 27 a game on +3rTS, with decent playmaking, it’s a hard case against him. Bird’s not dragging in defenders as much as Hakeem is, and doesn’t pass out enough as he should, neither does Hakeem but regardless if you watch the games, Hakeem is still creating open shots and attacking of the close outs. Bird a lot of the time is off the ball, and his on ball duty is to score. If both create around the same, have the same volume of points, (Bird is 4%’s more efficient), but Hakeem has the far edge in defense, you don’t have Bird as the best. You just don’t.

[One_and_Done]

Hakeem and Bird's primes overlapped, and almost nobody thought Hakeem was better than Bird. Not only that, almost nobody thought Hakeem was a top tier player.

[OhayoKD]

Hakeem and Bird's primes overlapped, and almost nobody thought Hakeem was better than Bird. Not only that, almost nobody thought Hakeem was a top tier player.

What's the point of joining a basketball forum if you have no intention of engaging in actual basketball.

[Lebronnygoat]

It's also worthy to mention how Hakeem led his team to the finals and got passed the 2nd best team in the league with a way worse situation than Bird, and a clearly worse team than the Lakers he faced. He beat them in dominating fashion, gentleman sweep, and did it averaging 31/11/2 (clearly created more than 2 times) on over 6 stocks! and 1.1 TO's per game.

[One_and_Done]

Hakeem and Bird's primes overlapped, and almost nobody thought Hakeem was better than Bird. Not only that, almost nobody thought Hakeem was a top tier player.

What's the point of joining a basketball forum if you have no intention of engaging in actual basketball.

Obviously the point of these projects is to re-evaluate if that assessment was correct, and since I have Hakeem in my top 10 all-time I obviously feel his MVP placement over the years was somewhat harsh, but not to the point where I could take him over prime Bird or Magic in the 80s. I'm of the view that Hakeem peaked in 93-95, and that is a commonly held view which many numbers and other indicators support.

[OhayoKD]

Hakeem and Bird's primes overlapped, and almost nobody thought Hakeem was better than Bird. Not only that, almost nobody thought Hakeem was a top tier player.

What's the point of joining a basketball forum if you have no intention of engaging in actual basketball.

Obviously the point of these projects is to re-evaluate if that assessment was correct, and since I have Hakeem in my top 10 all-time I obviously feel his MVP placement over the years was somewhat harsh, but not to the point where I could take him over prime Bird or Magic in the 80s. I'm of the view that Hakeem peaked in 93-95, and that is a commonly held view which many numbers and other indicators support.

There are infinite numbers that can be conjured up to support anything.

What part of this are you disputing?

By far better defender than anyone you’ll vote for as one, via paint defense, which is limiting the most efficient and used shot of the 80’s. If you look at how much shots he’s limiting and or negating, and combine that with the scoring level which is 27 a game on +3rTS, with decent playmaking, it’s a hard case against him. Bird’s not dragging in defenders as much as Hakeem is, and doesn’t pass out enough as he should, neither does Hakeem but regardless if you watch the games, Hakeem is still creating open shots and attacking of the close outs. Bird a lot of the time is off the ball, and his on ball duty is to score. If both create around the same, have the same volume of points, (Bird is 4%’s more efficient), but Hakeem has the far edge in defense, you don’t have Bird as the best. You just don’t.

[One_and_Done]

I dispute the part where we evaluate players in a binary way, where we add up their 'D' and 'O' and come up with who was better.

[Cavsfansince84]

Hakeem and Bird's primes overlapped, and almost nobody thought Hakeem was better than Bird. Not only that, almost nobody thought Hakeem was a top tier player.

No I don't agree with that at all. Hakeem finished 4th in mvp voting in 86 in only his second season and never lower than 7th despite playing on mostly mediocre teams up until 1990. Also all nba 1st team from 87-89. He was both top tier and for the most part thought of as such but things were just much different back then and Hakeem's franchise had various set backs so he wasn't getting much publicity compared to MJ, Barkley, Magic and so on. Then isn't on the dream team either(for obvious reasons) so missed out on all of that hype but then hits another level in 93-95 so he now has his rightful place as a top 10 player of all time.

[Lebronnygoat]

I dispute the part where we evaluate players in a binary way, where we add up their 'D' and 'O' and come up with who was better.

Didn't know there was something other than offense and defense. Mamba mentality?

[Narigo]

1. Larry Bird- Peak year for Bird and was the best player in the regular season.

2. Magic Johnson- Number 2 but not by much imo.

3. Hakeem Olajuwon- Has a case for number 1 as well as he is probably the best defender in the league at this point and played an enormous part in upsetting the Lakers in the playoffs

4.Kevin McHale-

5. Charles Barkley- Close call between Barkley and Kareem. But I take Barkley by a hair as he was the best player on the 76ers this season and was better in the playoffs than Kareem

[One_and_Done]

I dispute the part where we evaluate players in a binary way, where we add up their 'D' and 'O' and come up with who was better.

Didn't know there was something other than offense and defense. Mamba mentality?

Floor game? Intangibles? That said, I think you've missed the point. A player can be terrible on D, or O, and still be more impactful than someone is good on both. This isn't a binary 50% each assessment

[One_and_Done]

Hakeem and Bird's primes overlapped, and almost nobody thought Hakeem was better than Bird. Not only that, almost nobody thought Hakeem was a top tier player.

No I don't agree with that at all. Hakeem finished 4th in mvp voting in 86 in only his second season and never lower than 7th despite playing on mostly mediocre teams up until 1990. Also all nba 1st team from 87-89. He was both top tier and for the most part thought of as such but things were just much different back then and Hakeem's franchise had various set backs so he wasn't getting much publicity compared to MJ, Barkley, Magic and so on. Then isn't on the dream team either(for obvious reasons) so missed out on all of that hype but then hits another level in 93-95 so he now has his rightful place as a top 10 player of all time.

This is just a disagreement in terms of what 'top tier' player means. Hakeem was seem as a great player, but the very MVP voting you're pointing to shows he was not seen as comparable to the top tier guys like Bird and Magic. His MVP vote is pretty terrible, he was clearly seen as a worse player than guys like Barkley until 94-95 for eg.

[Lebronnygoat]

I dispute the part where we evaluate players in a binary way, where we add up their 'D' and 'O' and come up with who was better.

Didn't know there was something other than offense and defense. Mamba mentality?

Floor game? Intangibles? That said, I think you've missed the point. A player can be terrible on D, or O, and still be more impactful than someone is good on both. This isn't a binary 50% each assessment

No one's saying defense is split 50% with offense, in fact, offense is more valuable usually. Floor game as in? Intangibles as in? Provide examples, and the examples you will provide, will either affect the court offensively, or defensively. Stop talking like big "analysts" on TV sport shows and brining up imaginary things.

[OhayoKD]

Kola's Ballot

Spoiler:

1986

Arc Highlight - Conference Cross-Over, Battle 5:

The next era’s strongest hooper decimated Boston’s super-school without his own school’s 2nd most powerful; for the first time in 99 Battles, the king of milkmen experienced the height of tension

1. Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Almost Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons Junpei Johnson - 1 arc use
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
+ Houston School reaches Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Los Angeles School - Bucket Getter - Special Grade; Rim-Protection - Special Grade
+ Hoop Flash vs Boston School, Battle 5 - Bucket Getter - Special Grade; Rim-Protection - Special Grade; Reverse-Ball Technique; Bumbling Birdie
- Sealed for 14 battles


2. Magic Johnson - (Grain Version) Yuki
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Showtime Slaughter

Ball Techniques:
+ Perfect Passer
+ Bom-Ba-Ball handling; Reverse-Ball Technique - Turbo Transition; Maximum Output - Layup Limbo
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Floor-General - Special Grade

Baller Vow:
+ In Exchange for playing with Kareem, Magic must retire early and let MJ three-peat

Key Chapters:
- Los Angeles School misses Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Spurs
- Hooper Burnout vs Dallas School
- Hooper Burnout vs Houston School

3. Michael Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 2
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash vs Boston School, Game 2 - Bucket Getter - Special Grade
- Sealed for 54 battles

4. Larry Bird - (Grain Version) Todo
Grade: 1 2
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Precision Passer
+ Idle Cardio
- Useless Helper
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 3 2
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 3 4
+ Floor-General - Grade 1 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a successful non-player NBA career, Bird will have to deal with a chronic back condition while he plays

Key Chapters:
+ Boston School wins Conference Cross-over
+ Crushes Chicago School

5. Kevin Mchale - (Grain Version) Noritoshi
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Piercing Dribbles
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 2
+ Stoppah - Grade 2
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 3

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Houston School - Bucket Getter - Grade 1; Rim-Protection - Grade 1; Stoppah - Grade 1

[One_and_Done]

Sometimes stuff in your floor game affects both O and D at the same time, like being in the right place on the court at the right time, or knowing where everyone else is. Like Bird standing in a certain place on D, so he can balance playing good D with the ability to rush to the baseline and throw a full court outlet pass. Is that O, or D, or both?

[Cavsfansince84]

This is just a disagreement in terms of what 'top tier' player means. Hakeem was seem as a great player, but the very MVP voting you're pointing to shows he was not seen as comparable to the top tier guys like Bird and Magic. His MVP vote is pretty terrible, he was clearly seen as a worse player than guys like Barkley until 94-95 for eg.

No I don't agree again. It obviously helps that Bird and Magic won almost every title from 1980-88 but his mvp voting is pretty good for a guy playing on 40-45 win type teams and basically equal to Barkley's up until 1990 when Barkley finishes 2-4-12-1 from 90-93 but it also helps that Barkley was the guy getting the most attention in the entire league outside of MJ and played on the east coast while Hakeem's team falls apart and he is over in Houston. Back then(and even still today) the national media always has favored east coast stars and LA over everyone else. The internet and whatnot has changed that to some degree but you are conflating media favoritism with on court impact right now imo.

[Cavsfansince84]

No one's saying defense is split 50% with offense, in fact, offense is more valuable usually. Floor game as in? Intangibles as in? Provide examples, and the examples you will provide, will either affect the court offensively, or defensively. Stop talking like big "analysts" on TV sport shows and brining up imaginary things.

I think its fair to say that things such as leadership and other qualities which could be viewed as intangibles are a real thing. To what degree they should be factored into a player's evaluation is another thing but they do have meaning in a team sport.

[One_and_Done]

This is just a disagreement in terms of what 'top tier' player means. Hakeem was seem as a great player, but the very MVP voting you're pointing to shows he was not seen as comparable to the top tier guys like Bird and Magic. His MVP vote is pretty terrible, he was clearly seen as a worse player than guys like Barkley until 94-95 for eg.

No I don't agree again. It obviously helps that Bird and Magic won almost every title from 1980-88 but his mvp voting is pretty good for a guy playing on 40-45 win type teams and basically equal to Barkley's up until 1990 when Barkley finishes 2-4-12-1 from 90-93 but it also helps that Barkley was the guy getting the most attention in the entire league outside of MJ and played on the east coast while Hakeem's team falls apart and he is over in Houston. Back then(and even still today) the national media always has favored east coast stars and LA over everyone else. The internet and whatnot has changed that to some degree but you are conflating media favoritism with on court impact right now imo.

This analysis has been done before. Hakeem is ranked lower than guys with comparable or worse team records in the MVP vote alot. Barkley is a good example of that, which is why I mentioned him.