Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[Scase]

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Maxey out for several weeks as well now

Imagine 76ers get Flagg..


Maxey
Oubre
PG
Flagg
Ebmiid

I feel like after the whole process thing, silver would find a way to give them the 10th pick lol

[Psubs]

Part of the tanking process is maximizing value of the assets on the roster, not just securing a top pick. That includes young players on the team as well. Trading vets should always be a priority.

They've traded or not re-signed four of their top five minute earners over the previous 2 years. The only one left is Barnes from that group. They moved both young and old guys no longer considered part of the core.

Again, they're doing exactly what you want and you're still not happy.

1. Should've traded FVV.
2. Should not have traded for Poeltl.
3. Should not have traded Powell as his demands were under $20 million per year and now he's putting up 25ppg on crazy %'s. Just thought he hit his ceiling but actually sold low on him.

There was no solid vision to get younger and cheaper but didn't pull the trigger on FVV. It's not like GM's can bat 1.000 but OKC is batting .900 and flipped Giddey for more defense.

[nikster]

Yeah man, Jak and a 4x DPOY centre are literally the same thing.

Just talking about age and Timeline. Goberts also gonna be paid $40 million at age 35 while Ant is in his prime.

Point is it is completely reasonable to have a vet like Poeltl with a young squad.

Yeah I get that, but the age and timeline thing becomes much more understandable when you are making compromises for a player that is a 4x DPOY, and not a mid tier centre. There is a reason why KD still garnered massive returns despite his age and his injury history.

Jak is not the tier of player that you do that for. I'm not saying we have to go and trade him immediately, but eventually we will get our roster healthy and this will lead to wins that will negatively impact our draft chances. If we end up sitting healthy guys out to try and prevent that, I'm fine not trading him, but also he's not going to be as productive 3 years from now so it might be best to get value from him now, vs then.

But the level of compromises we are making for Yak are relatively lower. Gobert for example took an absolute massive haul, a huge contract and will be paying him until he's 35. It's not just star players, contenders have 30 year old role players all the time. Don't know why he'd age poorly either. His game isn't that explosive, he's got great touch around the rim, he has good positioning and plays smart... bigs often stay productive longer than most.

I just don't think it'd be easy to get a replacement that's similar or better.

[ItsDanger]

Our 2 games vs Utah will be crucial to the tank. Do not disappoint tWo Darko.

[OakleyDokely]

Part of the tanking process is maximizing value of the assets on the roster, not just securing a top pick. That includes young players on the team as well. Trading vets should always be a priority.

They've traded or not re-signed four of their top five minute earners over the previous 2 years. The only one left is Barnes from that group. They moved both young and old guys no longer considered part of the core.

Again, they're doing exactly what you want and you're still not happy.

1. Should've traded FVV.
2. Should not have traded for Poeltl.
3. Should not have traded Powell as his demands were under $20 million per year and now he's putting up 25ppg on crazy %'s. Just thought he hit his ceiling but actually sold low on him.

There was no solid vision to get younger and cheaper but didn't pull the trigger on FVV. It's not like GM's can bat 1.000 but OKC is batting .900 and flipped Giddey for more defense.

I still don't understand how many of the same people who want to tank were also a proponent of re-signing an expensive vet like Powell, who would've helped us win more games.

[Chandan]

Just talking about age and Timeline. Goberts also gonna be paid $40 million at age 35 while Ant is in his prime.

Point is it is completely reasonable to have a vet like Poeltl with a young squad.

Yeah I get that, but the age and timeline thing becomes much more understandable when you are making compromises for a player that is a 4x DPOY, and not a mid tier centre. There is a reason why KD still garnered massive returns despite his age and his injury history.

Jak is not the tier of player that you do that for. I'm not saying we have to go and trade him immediately, but eventually we will get our roster healthy and this will lead to wins that will negatively impact our draft chances. If we end up sitting healthy guys out to try and prevent that, I'm fine not trading him, but also he's not going to be as productive 3 years from now so it might be best to get value from him now, vs then.

But the level of compromises we are making for Yak are relatively lower. Gobert for example took an absolute massive haul, a huge contract and will be paying him until he's 35. It's not just star players, contenders have 30 year old role players all the time. Don't know why he'd age poorly either. His game isn't that explosive, he's got great touch around the rim, he has good positioning and plays smart... bigs often stay productive longer than most.

I just don't think it'd be easy to get a replacement that's similar or better.

Here is the thing, you don't need to. It's okay to have someone inferior than Poeltl. Boston strolled to the finals last year with porzingus injured on the bench. Dallas got to the finals with a rookie center.
You can definitely get by without a do-it-all center when the time comes. But what are we even talking about here now? We want to lose NOW. Let's take care of the pressing matter before thinking about how are we going to replace Yak in the distant future.

[Psubs]

They've traded or not re-signed four of their top five minute earners over the previous 2 years. The only one left is Barnes from that group. They moved both young and old guys no longer considered part of the core.

Again, they're doing exactly what you want and you're still not happy.

1. Should've traded FVV.
2. Should not have traded for Poeltl.
3. Should not have traded Powell as his demands were under $20 million per year and now he's putting up 25ppg on crazy %'s. Just thought he hit his ceiling but actually sold low on him.

There was no solid vision to get younger and cheaper but didn't pull the trigger on FVV. It's not like GM's can bat 1.000 but OKC is batting .900 and flipped Giddey for more defense.

I still don't understand how many of the same people who want to tank were also a proponent of re-signing an expensive vet like Powell, who would've helped us win more games.

Because his salary demands were less than his value. We knew that OG, Pascal and FVV would get contracts that were greater than their value. Masai did amazing with OG and Pascal trades but fumbled FVV. GTJr wasn't even on a rookie contract so not an RFA.

[Psubs]

Yeah I get that, but the age and timeline thing becomes much more understandable when you are making compromises for a player that is a 4x DPOY, and not a mid tier centre. There is a reason why KD still garnered massive returns despite his age and his injury history.

Jak is not the tier of player that you do that for. I'm not saying we have to go and trade him immediately, but eventually we will get our roster healthy and this will lead to wins that will negatively impact our draft chances. If we end up sitting healthy guys out to try and prevent that, I'm fine not trading him, but also he's not going to be as productive 3 years from now so it might be best to get value from him now, vs then.

But the level of compromises we are making for Yak are relatively lower. Gobert for example took an absolute massive haul, a huge contract and will be paying him until he's 35. It's not just star players, contenders have 30 year old role players all the time. Don't know why he'd age poorly either. His game isn't that explosive, he's got great touch around the rim, he has good positioning and plays smart... bigs often stay productive longer than most.

I just don't think it'd be easy to get a replacement that's similar or better.

Here is the thing, you don't need to. It's okay to have someone inferior than Poeltl. Boston strolled to the finals last year with porzingus injured on the bench. Dallas got to the finals with a rookie center.
You can definitely get by without a do-it-all center.

My prediction is that a platoon of Ivisic and Chomche at C with Scottie playing some small ball mins, is enough to compete in 3-4 years from now.

[MiamiSPX]

They've traded or not re-signed four of their top five minute earners over the previous 2 years. The only one left is Barnes from that group. They moved both young and old guys no longer considered part of the core.

Again, they're doing exactly what you want and you're still not happy.

1. Should've traded FVV.
2. Should not have traded for Poeltl.
3. Should not have traded Powell as his demands were under $20 million per year and now he's putting up 25ppg on crazy %'s. Just thought he hit his ceiling but actually sold low on him.

There was no solid vision to get younger and cheaper but didn't pull the trigger on FVV. It's not like GM's can bat 1.000 but OKC is batting .900 and flipped Giddey for more defense.

I still don't understand how many of the same people who want to tank were also a proponent of re-signing an expensive vet like Powell, who would've helped us win more games.

On the Powell front, Masai did what I wish he had done with everyone. He had decided that he wasn't going to pay Powell what he likely wanted on his next contract, so he moved him the season PRIOR to his walk year. There are literally hundreds of posts on here whining that he didn't do that with FVV, OG, and Siakam (including many of those posts from me). The trade just didn't work out....it happens...but it was a good attempt. GTJ was trending upwards and nobody could have seen his downfall coming (out of the league by age 30 IMO).

[nikster]

Yeah I get that, but the age and timeline thing becomes much more understandable when you are making compromises for a player that is a 4x DPOY, and not a mid tier centre. There is a reason why KD still garnered massive returns despite his age and his injury history.

Jak is not the tier of player that you do that for. I'm not saying we have to go and trade him immediately, but eventually we will get our roster healthy and this will lead to wins that will negatively impact our draft chances. If we end up sitting healthy guys out to try and prevent that, I'm fine not trading him, but also he's not going to be as productive 3 years from now so it might be best to get value from him now, vs then.

But the level of compromises we are making for Yak are relatively lower. Gobert for example took an absolute massive haul, a huge contract and will be paying him until he's 35. It's not just star players, contenders have 30 year old role players all the time. Don't know why he'd age poorly either. His game isn't that explosive, he's got great touch around the rim, he has good positioning and plays smart... bigs often stay productive longer than most.

I just don't think it'd be easy to get a replacement that's similar or better.

Here is the thing, you don't need to. It's okay to have someone inferior than Poeltl. Boston strolled to the finals last year with porzingus injured on the bench. Dallas got to the finals with a rookie center.
You can definitely get by without a do-it-all center when the time comes. But what are we even talking about here now? We want to lose NOW. Let's take care of the pressing matter before thinking about how are we going to replace Yak in the distant future.

I think we are fully capable of losing enough games for the tank this season even with Poeltl healthy. And I don't think next season or 2 is that distant of a future.

Getting a Centre rotation of Lively and Gafford was a big part of Mavs turn around from the disaster they were initially after the Kyrie trade. They were both very impactful. Horford is still gave then solid minutes despite his age. With talent enough at other positions,a generational talent like Luka or a ridicously deep team like Boston, no single position is ever a "need".

[ATLTimekeeper]

I think GTJr really only had that nice bubble performance. It was just a bad move. I didn't feel like it was the return worthy of Lowe's claim that 15 teams were in on Powell. They also immediately ran into negotiating hell by being leveraged by Klutch.

At the time one of the Nets in 7 bros snickered at my suggestion we re-sign Powell. I didn't think the trade would have such a cultural impact on the team. We went from having an identity to just trying to do what everyone else does in one move. Masai has been reeling ever since.

[Scase]

Just talking about age and Timeline. Goberts also gonna be paid $40 million at age 35 while Ant is in his prime.

Point is it is completely reasonable to have a vet like Poeltl with a young squad.

Yeah I get that, but the age and timeline thing becomes much more understandable when you are making compromises for a player that is a 4x DPOY, and not a mid tier centre. There is a reason why KD still garnered massive returns despite his age and his injury history.

Jak is not the tier of player that you do that for. I'm not saying we have to go and trade him immediately, but eventually we will get our roster healthy and this will lead to wins that will negatively impact our draft chances. If we end up sitting healthy guys out to try and prevent that, I'm fine not trading him, but also he's not going to be as productive 3 years from now so it might be best to get value from him now, vs then.

But the level of compromises we are making for Yak are relatively lower. Gobert for example took an absolute massive haul, a huge contract and will be paying him until he's 35. It's not just star players, contenders have 30 year old role players all the time. Don't know why he'd age poorly either. His game isn't that explosive, he's got great touch around the rim, he has good positioning and plays smart... bigs often stay productive longer than most.

I just don't think it'd be easy to get a replacement that's similar or better.

The level of compromises you are thinking about are for the team 2 years ago, what I'm talking about are for the team now. If keeping him around prevents us from adding better talent due to a diminished draft slot, then we are concerned about current production vs future production.

And since right now, we aren't trying to win anything, it kinda works against us. Jak is fine, but he is not an elite centre that you can justifiably risk the worse draft positioning for him. Gobert, absolutely.

Gobert was also brought into a team that was exiting a rebuild, they were looking to start winning more, he was traded to a team that finished with 46 wins. Jak when he was traded here was for a team that had a bad record, and even if we take into account the previous season before he joined when we were a 48 win team, that's all well and fine. But now, we aren't in that same position, we are headed into "year one" of a rebuild.

They are vastly different situations, Gobert was added to improve the team and start making playoff noise. Jak was at that time added for the same reason. But we are no longer in that situation, so the justification to him being around doesn't stand up anymore. You can replace a player like Jak much easier than a player like Gobert.

But the level of compromises we are making for Yak are relatively lower. Gobert for example took an absolute massive haul, a huge contract and will be paying him until he's 35. It's not just star players, contenders have 30 year old role players all the time. Don't know why he'd age poorly either. His game isn't that explosive, he's got great touch around the rim, he has good positioning and plays smart... bigs often stay productive longer than most.

I just don't think it'd be easy to get a replacement that's similar or better.

Here is the thing, you don't need to. It's okay to have someone inferior than Poeltl. Boston strolled to the finals last year with porzingus injured on the bench. Dallas got to the finals with a rookie center.
You can definitely get by without a do-it-all center when the time comes. But what are we even talking about here now? We want to lose NOW. Let's take care of the pressing matter before thinking about how are we going to replace Yak in the distant future.

I think we are fully capable of losing enough games for the tank this season even with Poeltl healthy. And I don't think next season or 2 is that distant of a future.

Getting a Centre rotation of Lively and Gafford was a big part of Mavs turn around from the disaster they were initially after the Kyrie trade. They were both very impactful. Horford is still gave then solid minutes despite his age. With talent enough at other positions,a generational talent like Luka or a ridicously deep team like Boston, no single position is ever a "need".

Yes, but they also NEEDED to compete, they had Luka and Kyrie. And they still managed to get TWO centres that are ages 20 and 26, significantly younger than Jak. Which again points to the fact, we don't need Jak. Lively wasn't some crazy top 5 pick, and Gafford wasn't some massive FA signing. They were the 12th and 38th picks respectively. So if they can find players that shore up their C rotation, easier and cheaper than we can find one, then that means that we are doing something wrong.

Gafford cost them a 26th OA pick and a guy who is out of the league. Lively cost them an expiring and a 10th pick, they traded down to 12th to shed salary and still got who they needed. We traded an 8th pick for one player.

[Psubs]

1. Should've traded FVV.
2. Should not have traded for Poeltl.
3. Should not have traded Powell as his demands were under $20 million per year and now he's putting up 25ppg on crazy %'s. Just thought he hit his ceiling but actually sold low on him.

There was no solid vision to get younger and cheaper but didn't pull the trigger on FVV. It's not like GM's can bat 1.000 but OKC is batting .900 and flipped Giddey for more defense.

I still don't understand how many of the same people who want to tank were also a proponent of re-signing an expensive vet like Powell, who would've helped us win more games.

On the Powell front, Masai did what I wish he had done with everyone. He had decided that he wasn't going to pay Powell what he likely wanted on his next contract, so he moved him the season PRIOR to his walk year. There are literally hundreds of posts on here whining that he didn't do that with FVV, OG, and Siakam (including many of those posts from me). The trade just didn't work out....it happens...but it was a good attempt. GTJ was trending upwards and nobody could have seen his downfall coming (out of the league by age 30 IMO).

We knew if was going to be an UFA so no guarantee he could've been retained had he played better. He mistepped on evaluating Powell's ceiling.

[Psubs]

Yes, but they also NEEDED to compete, they had Luka and Kyrie. And they still managed to get TWO centres that are ages 20 and 26, significantly younger than Jak. Which again points to the fact, we don't need Jak. Lively wasn't some crazy top 5 pick, and Gafford wasn't some massive FA signing. They were the 12th and 38th picks respectively. So if they can find players that shore up their C rotation, easier and cheaper than we can find one, then that means that we are doing something wrong.

Gafford cost them a 26th OA pick and a guy who is out of the league. Lively cost them an expiring and a 10th pick, they traded down to 12th to shed salary and still got who they needed. We traded an 8th pick for one player.

Masai didn't think it would be the #8 pick. Really though, SA's demand were like Danny Ainge level. Poeltl had 1 year left and surely wasn't going to stay, so likely his market value would've been the MLE for 4 years (3 years might be more desirable for Poeltl) with max raises and a player option.

[Basketball_Jones]

A lot of injuries piling up. There was a glimmer of being a play-in team but the way things are going this team cannot stay healthy. Remember, Yak still hasn’t missed a game. Gradey as well.

[MessiahUjiri]

A lot of injuries piling up. There was a glimmer of being a play-in team but the way things are going this team cannot stay healthy. Remember, Yak still hasn’t missed a game. Gradey as well.

I made the call, and put a hit on Poeltl.

BEWARE JAK, THE TRIAD IS COMIN’

[Scase]

Yes, but they also NEEDED to compete, they had Luka and Kyrie. And they still managed to get TWO centres that are ages 20 and 26, significantly younger than Jak. Which again points to the fact, we don't need Jak. Lively wasn't some crazy top 5 pick, and Gafford wasn't some massive FA signing. They were the 12th and 38th picks respectively. So if they can find players that shore up their C rotation, easier and cheaper than we can find one, then that means that we are doing something wrong.

Gafford cost them a 26th OA pick and a guy who is out of the league. Lively cost them an expiring and a 10th pick, they traded down to 12th to shed salary and still got who they needed. We traded an 8th pick for one player.

Masai didn't think it would be the #8 pick. Really though, SA's demand were like Danny Ainge level. Poeltl had 1 year left and surely wasn't going to stay, so likely his market value would've been the MLE for 4 years (3 years might be more desirable for Poeltl) with max raises and a player option.

Doesn't really matter though, cause he was wrong. So ultimately we paid more than we should have, and more, than other teams had to, to get multiple players who are younger and playing on successful teams. And if he really didn't think it would be an 8th pick, he didn't have a whole lot of confidence in that, since he only protected it up to the 6th.


If the guy claiming that the player is a "championship" level centre, botched it so poorly that he never anticipated the team being as bad as it was, then that calls into question his judgment. Ultimately, the why, doesn't matter so much here, as does the actual outcome.

As for SA's demands being unreasonable, other GMs have had zero issues walking away from Masai and Ainge when they make unreasonable demands, seems kinda silly to suggest Masai was incapable of negotiating harder, or just walking away.

And at this point recovering some of the cost, and ensuring the pick doesn't risk getting pushed into a less desirable range, is worth more than the player on the team as it stands. Doesn't mean Jak is the problem (he never has been), but again his fit on the team. Siakam isn't a bad player, but he definitely wasn't worth the contract he got from the Pacers, on our team.

A better fit, benefits both our team, and Jak in this case.

[Vampirate]

Yes, but they also NEEDED to compete, they had Luka and Kyrie. And they still managed to get TWO centres that are ages 20 and 26, significantly younger than Jak. Which again points to the fact, we don't need Jak. Lively wasn't some crazy top 5 pick, and Gafford wasn't some massive FA signing. They were the 12th and 38th picks respectively. So if they can find players that shore up their C rotation, easier and cheaper than we can find one, then that means that we are doing something wrong.

Gafford cost them a 26th OA pick and a guy who is out of the league. Lively cost them an expiring and a 10th pick, they traded down to 12th to shed salary and still got who they needed. We traded an 8th pick for one player.

Masai didn't think it would be the #8 pick. Really though, SA's demand were like Danny Ainge level. Poeltl had 1 year left and surely wasn't going to stay, so likely his market value would've been the MLE for 4 years (3 years might be more desirable for Poeltl) with max raises and a player option.

Doesn't really matter though, cause he was wrong. So ultimately we paid more than we should have, and more, than other teams had to, to get multiple players who are younger and playing on successful teams. And if he really didn't think it would be an 8th pick, he didn't have a whole lot of confidence in that, since he only protected it up to the 6th.


If the guy claiming that the player is a "championship" level centre, botched it so poorly that he never anticipated the team being as bad as it was, then that calls into question his judgment. Ultimately, the why, doesn't matter so much here, as does the actual outcome.

As for SA's demands being unreasonable, other GMs have had zero issues walking away from Masai and Ainge when they make unreasonable demands, seems kinda silly to suggest Masai was incapable of negotiating harder, or just walking away.

And at this point recovering some of the cost, and ensuring the pick doesn't risk getting pushed into a less desirable range, is worth more than the player on the team as it stands. Doesn't mean Jak is the problem (he never has been), but again his fit on the team. Siakam isn't a bad player, but he definitely wasn't worth the contract he got from the Pacers, on our team.

A better fit, benefits both our team, and Jak in this case.

The 8th pick is immaterial in all this.

The fact is the Raptors were on the verge to be in the sweepstakes for a Generational type of Center, he then went and traded for a Center for core that pretty much ran its course and in the process made the odds for landing that player worse.

Wemby is the biggest reason why the Yak trade is horrible.

There's of course no promise we get Wemby either way and maybe we draft Gradey regardless. Had we drafted Gradey, likely there'd be a ton of backlash at the time, but his skills are obvious. (assuming Miller or Bilal aren't on the board).

Gradey really softens the blow from all that, but it doesn't make the decision anymore bad than it was. It's just that Masai seems to be recovering from it to varying degrees.

[YogurtProducer]

With Scottie we wanna win within 3/4 years.

I think 29-33 year old Poeltl is fine.

Yeah look at Minny. Ant is same age as Scottie and they are pairing with him 32 year old Gibert who they just signed to a big extension. I'm comfortable with Poeltl for the next 4-5 years.

I think people take for granted how harsh it cam be to fill a position of need some time. I don't see a point moving him unless we already have a replacement (or if the move is for a replacement)

Yeah man, Jak and a 4x DPOY centre are literally the same thing.

One makes $43M one makes $19M.

[Vampirate]

The Bucks will be playing the Raptors right after the Celtics so they should be extra motivated to get the win.