Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[GreatWhiteStiff]

I've basically already said it, but how exactly do we tank with guys like Mogbo/Boucher coming off the bench and instead of being -7s every night, having a positive impact? Maybe it's a fluke or whatever, but I have doubts about that.

[AbC?]

Gotta wait 2 days to watch this team lose again

[will]

tWo!

[Clutch0z24]

Alot of Powell talk....But lets be real Masai should have went all in on a rebuild the moment Kawhi left...Maybe for the post title season it was ok to run it back but that following year once we got Barnes that should have been a complete reset and got as much value for all our players...

On another note which teams will be interested in Jak? Can we get a 2026 first or a 2025 first for him?...I think this is the year to sell him high....We will need a C but we can find one either in the draft or maybe try and get one In the trade...

[720]

We’ve overtaken Milwaukee. I know Philly lost Maxey but they’ll eventually start winning too with PG playing and Embiid coming back soon. Just keep tanking.

[Psubs]

Alot of Powell talk....But lets be real Masai should have went all in on a rebuild the moment Kawhi left...Maybe for the post title season it was ok to run it back but that following year once we got Barnes that should have been a complete reset and got as much value for all our players...

On another note which teams will be interested in Jak? Can we get a 2026 first or a 2025 first for him?...I think this is the year to sell him high....We will need a C but we can find one either in the draft or maybe try and get one In the trade...

Each season they raised ticket prices and needed to make the Poeltl move to make it look like they are still competitive but really a treadmill move.

[DelAbbot]

A lot of injuries piling up. There was a glimmer of being a play-in team but the way things are going this team cannot stay healthy. Remember, Yak still hasn’t missed a game. Gradey as well.

I made the call, and put a hit on Poeltl.

BEWARE JAK, THE TRIAD IS COMIN’

At first I read it as "The TRADE is Coming" and got all excited

[Scase]

Masai didn't think it would be the #8 pick. Really though, SA's demand were like Danny Ainge level. Poeltl had 1 year left and surely wasn't going to stay, so likely his market value would've been the MLE for 4 years (3 years might be more desirable for Poeltl) with max raises and a player option.

Doesn't really matter though, cause he was wrong. So ultimately we paid more than we should have, and more, than other teams had to, to get multiple players who are younger and playing on successful teams. And if he really didn't think it would be an 8th pick, he didn't have a whole lot of confidence in that, since he only protected it up to the 6th.


If the guy claiming that the player is a "championship" level centre, botched it so poorly that he never anticipated the team being as bad as it was, then that calls into question his judgment. Ultimately, the why, doesn't matter so much here, as does the actual outcome.

As for SA's demands being unreasonable, other GMs have had zero issues walking away from Masai and Ainge when they make unreasonable demands, seems kinda silly to suggest Masai was incapable of negotiating harder, or just walking away.

And at this point recovering some of the cost, and ensuring the pick doesn't risk getting pushed into a less desirable range, is worth more than the player on the team as it stands. Doesn't mean Jak is the problem (he never has been), but again his fit on the team. Siakam isn't a bad player, but he definitely wasn't worth the contract he got from the Pacers, on our team.

A better fit, benefits both our team, and Jak in this case.

The 8th pick is immaterial in all this.

The fact is the Raptors were on the verge to be in the sweepstakes for a Generational type of Center, he then went and traded for a Center for core that pretty much ran its course and in the process made the odds for landing that player worse.

Wemby is the biggest reason why the Yak trade is horrible.

There's of course no promise we get Wemby either way and maybe we draft Gradey regardless. Had we drafted Gradey, likely there'd be a ton of backlash at the time, but his skills are obvious. (assuming Miller or Bilal aren't on the board).

Gradey really softens the blow from all that, but it doesn't make the decision anymore bad than it was. It's just that Masai seems to be recovering from it to varying degrees.

I agree 100%, but I as looking at it more like actual cost for what we got, vs actual cost for the Mavs that were brought up. The opportunity cost is definitely the true killer as it set back the rebuild by at least a year.

[billy_hoyle]

Doesn't really matter though, cause he was wrong. So ultimately we paid more than we should have, and more, than other teams had to, to get multiple players who are younger and playing on successful teams. And if he really didn't think it would be an 8th pick, he didn't have a whole lot of confidence in that, since he only protected it up to the 6th.


If the guy claiming that the player is a "championship" level centre, botched it so poorly that he never anticipated the team being as bad as it was, then that calls into question his judgment. Ultimately, the why, doesn't matter so much here, as does the actual outcome.

As for SA's demands being unreasonable, other GMs have had zero issues walking away from Masai and Ainge when they make unreasonable demands, seems kinda silly to suggest Masai was incapable of negotiating harder, or just walking away.

And at this point recovering some of the cost, and ensuring the pick doesn't risk getting pushed into a less desirable range, is worth more than the player on the team as it stands. Doesn't mean Jak is the problem (he never has been), but again his fit on the team. Siakam isn't a bad player, but he definitely wasn't worth the contract he got from the Pacers, on our team.

A better fit, benefits both our team, and Jak in this case.

The 8th pick is immaterial in all this.

The fact is the Raptors were on the verge to be in the sweepstakes for a Generational type of Center, he then went and traded for a Center for core that pretty much ran its course and in the process made the odds for landing that player worse.

Wemby is the biggest reason why the Yak trade is horrible.

There's of course no promise we get Wemby either way and maybe we draft Gradey regardless. Had we drafted Gradey, likely there'd be a ton of backlash at the time, but his skills are obvious. (assuming Miller or Bilal aren't on the board).

Gradey really softens the blow from all that, but it doesn't make the decision anymore bad than it was. It's just that Masai seems to be recovering from it to varying degrees.

I agree 100%, but I as looking at it more like actual cost for what we got, vs actual cost for the Mavs that were brought up. The opportunity cost is definitely the true killer as it set back the rebuild by at least a year.

The raptors were 27 and 31 when they made the trade for Poeltl.

The Spurs ended the season at 22 wins.

The second worst team won the lottery in 2023.

For us to have won Wemby we would need to have finished between Detroit and San Antonio (i.e. 18-21 wins).

In our 30 years of existence we've had 2 seasons with that meager win total (our inaugural and 3rd seasons).

We were coming off a 48 w season with the reigning ROY.

Now what part of the above makes you think we had any shot at Wemby when we made that trade? There's nothing realistic our front office could have done that year for our 48 w team to get to 21 wins. 41 wins was a massive disappointment.

It's absurd to even speculate on.

Or are you guys suggesting that having the Raptors change results would have butterfly effected the lottery results? Why would anything change with respect to the actual outcome?

[TorontoBarneys]

I hope Brown regains his health soon and stays healthy enough for an extended stretch (20+ games) up to the deadline so we can actually trade him for a 1st round pick in 2025 and beyond. Would be the ideal scenario, I think.

[PhilBlackson]

I hope Brown regains his health soon and stays healthy enough for an extended stretch (20+ games) up to the deadline so we can actually trade him for a 1st round pick in 2025 and beyond. Would be the ideal scenario, I think.

I’ll truly be stunned if Brown can net a 25’ first.

[anotherhomer]

We’ve overtaken Milwaukee. I know Philly lost Maxey but they’ll eventually start winning too with PG playing and Embiid coming back soon. Just keep tanking.

i don't expect us to remain at the 3rd worst record, once IQ, Barnes and Brown comes back

[Scase]

The 8th pick is immaterial in all this.

The fact is the Raptors were on the verge to be in the sweepstakes for a Generational type of Center, he then went and traded for a Center for core that pretty much ran its course and in the process made the odds for landing that player worse.

Wemby is the biggest reason why the Yak trade is horrible.

There's of course no promise we get Wemby either way and maybe we draft Gradey regardless. Had we drafted Gradey, likely there'd be a ton of backlash at the time, but his skills are obvious. (assuming Miller or Bilal aren't on the board).

Gradey really softens the blow from all that, but it doesn't make the decision anymore bad than it was. It's just that Masai seems to be recovering from it to varying degrees.

I agree 100%, but I as looking at it more like actual cost for what we got, vs actual cost for the Mavs that were brought up. The opportunity cost is definitely the true killer as it set back the rebuild by at least a year.

The raptors were 27 and 31 when they made the trade for Poeltl.

The Spurs ended the season at 22 wins.

The second worst team won the lottery in 2023.

For us to have won Wemby we would need to have finished between Detroit and San Antonio (i.e. 18-21 wins).

In our 30 years of existence we've had 2 seasons with that meager win total (our inaugural and 3rd seasons).

We were coming off a 48 w season with the reigning ROY.

Now what part of the above makes you think we had any shot at Wemby when we made that trade? There's nothing realistic our front office could have done that year for our 48 w team to get to 21 wins. 41 wins was a massive disappointment.

It's absurd to even speculate on.

Or are you guys suggesting that having the Raptors change results would have butterfly effected the lottery results? Why would anything change with respect to the actual outcome?

They were 26-31, and I distinctly recall every single anti tank person explaining to me repeatedly how the lotto odds are now flat, and how we should be pushing for the play in because the Hawks won the 1st OA pick as the 10th seed.

Or you can take it at face value like everyone else does, and realize making that trade for a failing team with bad vibes, or how the starting lineup had 3/5 players shooting 28%, 32% and 34% from 3 and that trading for a guy that shoots 0% was probably a bad fit. Or a plethora of other reasons. Oh yeah, and lets ignore that it is incredibly difficult to hit that 21 win threshold, despite getting 25 last year while TRYING to win.

Or most importantly, that trading for Jak prevented us from starting the rebuild sooner, but hey, all that would require you actually read the post instead of read the name Wemby and instinctively react and reply.

[billy_hoyle]

I agree 100%, but I as looking at it more like actual cost for what we got, vs actual cost for the Mavs that were brought up. The opportunity cost is definitely the true killer as it set back the rebuild by at least a year.

The raptors were 27 and 31 when they made the trade for Poeltl.

The Spurs ended the season at 22 wins.

The second worst team won the lottery in 2023.

For us to have won Wemby we would need to have finished between Detroit and San Antonio (i.e. 18-21 wins).

In our 30 years of existence we've had 2 seasons with that meager win total (our inaugural and 3rd seasons).

We were coming off a 48 w season with the reigning ROY.

Now what part of the above makes you think we had any shot at Wemby when we made that trade? There's nothing realistic our front office could have done that year for our 48 w team to get to 21 wins. 41 wins was a massive disappointment.

It's absurd to even speculate on.

Or are you guys suggesting that having the Raptors change results would have butterfly effected the lottery results? Why would anything change with respect to the actual outcome?

They were 26-31, and I distinctly recall every single anti tank person explaining to me repeatedly how the lotto odds are now flat, and how we should be pushing for the play in because the Hawks won the 1st OA pick as the 10th seed.

Or you can take it at face value like everyone else does, and realize making that trade for a failing team with bad vibes, or how the starting lineup had 3/5 players shooting 28%, 32% and 34% from 3 and that trading for a guy that shoots 0% was probably a bad fit. Or a plethora of other reasons. Oh yeah, and lets ignore that it is incredibly difficult to hit that 21 win threshold, despite getting 25 last year while TRYING to win.

Or most importantly, that trading for Jak prevented us from starting the rebuild sooner, but hey, all that would require you actually read the post instead of read the name Wemby and instinctively react and reply.

No. You guys specifically said the trade prevented us from getting Wemby.

That statement is categorically not true based on the result.

Now, if you're saying we shouldn't have done the trade because we should have tried to increase our odds at Wemby, that's an opinion that obviously has merit, but would literally not have mattered in 2023. We know what the lottery results were.

Funny enough, if we had gone for the Play-in last year, we might have kept our pick (due to the flat odds).

We ended up with Dick in the 2023 draft, how did we hurt the rebuild? I'd rather have our prospect vs the prospect chosen by the team that ended up with the worst record in the league (Detroit).

Are you saying you would rather have Ausar over Dick?

[Scase]

The raptors were 27 and 31 when they made the trade for Poeltl.

The Spurs ended the season at 22 wins.

The second worst team won the lottery in 2023.

For us to have won Wemby we would need to have finished between Detroit and San Antonio (i.e. 18-21 wins).

In our 30 years of existence we've had 2 seasons with that meager win total (our inaugural and 3rd seasons).

We were coming off a 48 w season with the reigning ROY.

Now what part of the above makes you think we had any shot at Wemby when we made that trade? There's nothing realistic our front office could have done that year for our 48 w team to get to 21 wins. 41 wins was a massive disappointment.

It's absurd to even speculate on.

Or are you guys suggesting that having the Raptors change results would have butterfly effected the lottery results? Why would anything change with respect to the actual outcome?

They were 26-31, and I distinctly recall every single anti tank person explaining to me repeatedly how the lotto odds are now flat, and how we should be pushing for the play in because the Hawks won the 1st OA pick as the 10th seed.

Or you can take it at face value like everyone else does, and realize making that trade for a failing team with bad vibes, or how the starting lineup had 3/5 players shooting 28%, 32% and 34% from 3 and that trading for a guy that shoots 0% was probably a bad fit. Or a plethora of other reasons. Oh yeah, and lets ignore that it is incredibly difficult to hit that 21 win threshold, despite getting 25 last year while TRYING to win.

Or most importantly, that trading for Jak prevented us from starting the rebuild sooner, but hey, all that would require you actually read the post instead of read the name Wemby and instinctively react and reply.

No. You guys specifically said the trade prevented us from getting Wemby.

That statement is categorically not true based on the result.

Now, if you're saying we shouldn't have done the trade because we should have tried to increase our odds at Wemby, that's an opinion that obviously has merit, but would literally not have mattered in 2023. We know what the lottery results were.

Funny enough, if we had gone for the Play-in last year, we might have kept our pick (due to the flat odds).

We ended up with Dick in the 2023 draft, how did we hurt the rebuild? I'd rather have our prospect vs the prospect chosen by the team that ended up with the worst record in the league (Detroit).

Are you saying you would rather have Ausar over Dick?

So let me get this straight, you read :

There's of course no promise we get Wemby either way and maybe we draft Gradey regardless. Had we drafted Gradey, likely there'd be a ton of backlash at the time, but his skills are obvious.

And from that, your takeaway is that the trade prevented us from getting Wemby? Not that the trade prevented us from having a CHANCE at getting Wemby, but you read someone saying :

There's of course no promise we get Wemby

And that's what you got from it?

Like man, I'm trying to take your argument in good faith here, but either you're intentionally misinterpreting what Vampirate said, or you didn't read the post. Neither of which are particularly conducive to a constructive discussion.

[billy_hoyle]

They were 26-31, and I distinctly recall every single anti tank person explaining to me repeatedly how the lotto odds are now flat, and how we should be pushing for the play in because the Hawks won the 1st OA pick as the 10th seed.

Or you can take it at face value like everyone else does, and realize making that trade for a failing team with bad vibes, or how the starting lineup had 3/5 players shooting 28%, 32% and 34% from 3 and that trading for a guy that shoots 0% was probably a bad fit. Or a plethora of other reasons. Oh yeah, and lets ignore that it is incredibly difficult to hit that 21 win threshold, despite getting 25 last year while TRYING to win.

Or most importantly, that trading for Jak prevented us from starting the rebuild sooner, but hey, all that would require you actually read the post instead of read the name Wemby and instinctively react and reply.

No. You guys specifically said the trade prevented us from getting Wemby.

That statement is categorically not true based on the result.

Now, if you're saying we shouldn't have done the trade because we should have tried to increase our odds at Wemby, that's an opinion that obviously has merit, but would literally not have mattered in 2023. We know what the lottery results were.

Funny enough, if we had gone for the Play-in last year, we might have kept our pick (due to the flat odds).

We ended up with Dick in the 2023 draft, how did we hurt the rebuild? I'd rather have our prospect vs the prospect chosen by the team that ended up with the worst record in the league (Detroit).

Are you saying you would rather have Ausar over Dick?

So let me get this straight, you read :

There's of course no promise we get Wemby either way and maybe we draft Gradey regardless. Had we drafted Gradey, likely there'd be a ton of backlash at the time, but his skills are obvious.

And from that, your takeaway is that the trade prevented us from getting Wemby? Not that the trade prevented us from having a CHANCE at getting Wemby, but you read someone saying :

There's of course no promise we get Wemby

And that's what you got from it?

Like man, I'm trying to take your argument in good faith here, but either you're intentionally misinterpreting what Vampirate said, or you didn't read the post. Neither of which are particularly conducive to a constructive discussion.

Yes.

You should have said. We wouldn't have gotten Wemby either way.

I think it's important to acknowledge what actually happened right?

To recap:
The draft is a lottery.
You can't race to the bottom easily.
Your team can pick better players at 13 than 5.
You can be the worst team in the league and end up drafting 5th (which begets a worse player than 13th).
You can actively tank when you shouldn't have (last year), and not be able to tank hard enough when you should (2023).

You can trade a late first for Agbaji and KO and get universally panned from both the tank and anti-tank crowd (I really disliked the trade), and still be proven to be a likely winner of that trade.

I think it's easy to criticize Masai for starting the rebuild late, but has it truely mattered? I don't think so. If we get lottery luck this year, I would say it didn't matter.

Masai keeps drafting well. If you do that, you will be able to flip the script easily.

[KL78192020]

I hope Brown regains his health soon and stays healthy enough for an extended stretch (20+ games) up to the deadline so we can actually trade him for a 1st round pick in 2025 and beyond. Would be the ideal scenario, I think.

I’ll truly be stunned if Brown can net a 25’ first.

Only way he would get that is if we're taking a bad contract for his expiring. Thats the only way Brown has value to get a 1st round pick.

[Scase]

No. You guys specifically said the trade prevented us from getting Wemby.

That statement is categorically not true based on the result.

Now, if you're saying we shouldn't have done the trade because we should have tried to increase our odds at Wemby, that's an opinion that obviously has merit, but would literally not have mattered in 2023. We know what the lottery results were.

Funny enough, if we had gone for the Play-in last year, we might have kept our pick (due to the flat odds).

We ended up with Dick in the 2023 draft, how did we hurt the rebuild? I'd rather have our prospect vs the prospect chosen by the team that ended up with the worst record in the league (Detroit).

Are you saying you would rather have Ausar over Dick?

So let me get this straight, you read :

There's of course no promise we get Wemby either way and maybe we draft Gradey regardless. Had we drafted Gradey, likely there'd be a ton of backlash at the time, but his skills are obvious.

And from that, your takeaway is that the trade prevented us from getting Wemby? Not that the trade prevented us from having a CHANCE at getting Wemby, but you read someone saying :

There's of course no promise we get Wemby

And that's what you got from it?

Like man, I'm trying to take your argument in good faith here, but either you're intentionally misinterpreting what Vampirate said, or you didn't read the post. Neither of which are particularly conducive to a constructive discussion.

Yes.

You should have said. We wouldn't have gotten Wemby either way.

I think it's important to acknowledge what actually happened right?

To recap:
The draft is a lottery.
You can't race to the bottom easily.
Your team can pick better players at 13 than 5.
You can be the worst team in the league and end up drafting 5th (which begets a worse player than 13th).
You can actively tank when you shouldn't have (last year), and not be able to tank hard enough when you should (2023).

You can trade a late first for Agbaji and KO and get universally panned from both the tank and anti-tank crowd (I really disliked the trade), and still be proven to be a likely winner of that trade.

I think it's easy to criticize Masai for starting the rebuild late, but has it truely mattered? I don't think so. If we get lottery luck this year, I would say it didn't matter.

Masai keeps drafting well. If you do that, you will be able to flip the script easily.

It was literally said there's no promise we get him. What are you not following here.

[Yeezus_]

I hope Brown regains his health soon and stays healthy enough for an extended stretch (20+ games) up to the deadline so we can actually trade him for a 1st round pick in 2025 and beyond. Would be the ideal scenario, I think.

I’ll truly be stunned if Brown can net a 25’ first.

Hopefully a team gets desperate. The Lakers for example can use him right about now.

[JB7]

We’ve overtaken Milwaukee. I know Philly lost Maxey but they’ll eventually start winning too with PG playing and Embiid coming back soon. Just keep tanking.

i don't expect us to remain at the 3rd worst record, once IQ, Barnes and Brown comes back

I imagine the team will find a way for Yak & RJ to miss time, once IQ & Barnes come back.

I don't think we will see a full roster for many games this season. Easiest way to tank, is constantly have one of the starters out of the lineup.