Bill Simmons ranked Barnes as the No. 6 player in the 2021 draft class

[tsherkin]

It matters, but if you're also putting up triple double like stat lines a lot of nights, I'd say it matters a little less.

Not really?

Like, rebounds are nice, but that's a thing a team can manage. And the passing is nice, but when you're scoring so poorly, it undercuts the utility of that playmaking. Triple doubles aren't inherently valuable just for the accrual of the stats; the how of them also matters. And being near to them, already being an arbitrary marker because we like round numbers, is even less meaningful.

Cade isn't an impact player right now. Scottie isn't really either. Both Detroit and Toronto are bad enough that they exert impact which is palpable to us, for sure, but we're talking about super-low-floor-raising type stuff and not meaningful impact enough to off-set the other issues. At least as presently deployed.

[OakleyDokely]

It matters, but if you're also putting up triple double like stat lines a lot of nights, I'd say it matters a little less.

Not really?

Like, rebounds are nice, but that's a thing a team can manage. And the passing is nice, but when you're scoring so poorly, it undercuts the utility of that playmaking. Triple doubles aren't inherently valuable just for the accrual of the stats; the how of them also matters. And being near to them, already being an arbitrary marker because we like round numbers, is even less meaningful.

Cade isn't an impact player right now. Scottie isn't really either. Both Detroit and Toronto are bad enough that they exert impact which is palpable to us, for sure, but we're talking about super-low-floor-raising type stuff and not meaningful impact enough to off-set the other issues. At least as presently deployed.

Scottie at averagish NBA efficiency is going to be more valuable than a purely iso scorer at average efficiency because Scottie can impact the game at both ends in so many different ways. That doesn't mean Scottie is a great player or a legit #1 option, but being able to contribute in other areas other than scoring provides added value.

[tsherkin]

Scottie at averagish NBA efficiency is going to be more valuable than a purely iso scorer at average efficiency because Scottie can impact the game at both ends in so many different ways. That doesn't mean Scottie is a great player or a legit #1 option, but being able to contribute in other areas other than scoring provides added value.

His D is probably his best trait to date, yes.

And yes, his versatility is nice. But we aren't speaking about whether or not Scottie can be a valuable player, because we all know that he has the tools to be a contributor. Basically any criticism I have of him centers around deploying him as our offensive focalpoint, which I don't think he has the tools to do. But I'd sure love him as a third option, adding D, rebounding and some playmaking alongside better offensive players.

[LarSiN]

BS back on his BS. Real talk though, he's always been like this. If SB was on any other team, he would've ranked him higher

[OakleyDokely]

Scottie at averagish NBA efficiency is going to be more valuable than a purely iso scorer at average efficiency because Scottie can impact the game at both ends in so many different ways. That doesn't mean Scottie is a great player or a legit #1 option, but being able to contribute in other areas other than scoring provides added value.

His D is probably his best trait to date, yes.

And yes, his versatility is nice. But we aren't speaking about whether or not Scottie can be a valuable player, because we all know that he has the tools to be a contributor. Basically any criticism I have of him centers around deploying him as our offensive focalpoint, which I don't think he has the tools to do. But I'd sure love him as a third option, adding D, rebounding and some playmaking alongside better offensive players.

Being an effective offensive focal point isn't a necessity for being an all-star though. That's a necessity for being a #1 championship option, but Barnes can make multiple all-star games being an effective, all-around #2-3 option on a competitive team.

[phanman]

Scottie at averagish NBA efficiency is going to be more valuable than a purely iso scorer at average efficiency because Scottie can impact the game at both ends in so many different ways. That doesn't mean Scottie is a great player or a legit #1 option, but being able to contribute in other areas other than scoring provides added value.

His D is probably his best trait to date, yes.

And yes, his versatility is nice. But we aren't speaking about whether or not Scottie can be a valuable player, because we all know that he has the tools to be a contributor. Basically any criticism I have of him centers around deploying him as our offensive focalpoint, which I don't think he has the tools to do. But I'd sure love him as a third option, adding D, rebounding and some playmaking alongside better offensive players.

Being an effective offensive focal point isn't a necessity for being an all-star though. That's a necessity for being a #1 championship option, but Barnes can make multiple all-star games being an effective, all-around #2-3 option on a competitive team.

To build on your point, you don't need to be the #1 option to be an effective offensive focal point. I mean it definitely helps if you can do it, but its not a requirement to be successful. I disagree with tsherkin that he doesn't have tools, he came back this year with a more refined offensive repertoire and was really starting to get comfortable using that big frame of his to feast in the paint. It was only 4 games and his 3pt% was in the gutter, but the shooting mechanics look smoother and generally he looked more comfortable shooting it when open. It really is a shame Jokic broke his eye because he was really looking good in the 3 games after the stinker against Cleveland.

Like Cade, Barnes is the only other guy listed that has to be the #1 option. Even that is a stretch since he has always shared the floor with Pascal and we only a tease of BBQ together before injuries shut it all down. This season is still undetermined as the trio has yet to suit up together but I do see a vision where RJ becomes the #1 scoring option for us.

- Mobley has three all star quality teammates all capable of averaging 20ppg
- Suggs is a premier 3-D guard
- Sengun also had his breakout last year but he's regressed this season and has the luxury of playing off Jalen Green
- Johnson gets to play with Trae

[canada_dry]

Bill Simmons isn’t very good at analyzing basketball

Good historian, bad at the present. Common enough in other fields.

I agree with this. Good listen mostly due to the historical knowledge and how he tries to weave that into current analysis. I do appreciate that.

Obviously disagree with this take. His Toronto takes in general have never been good tbh. Which is fine. As long as you know thats a blind spot you don't really have to pay much attention to it.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[artsncrafts]

If he is only basing it on the first 2 weeks of 2024 you could possible argue his case... It is also possible that long term he COULD be right. But keep in mind he is clearly trolling Toronto here. All 6 players are great and Barnes has yet to take the "next step" so its not that crazy, but its bait.

[wegotthabeet]

put him on the Celtics and jumps to #1 overnight.

[Raps in 4]

Is this guy relevant outside the Boston sports bubble?

[adubmac]

Bill's producer is a big Magic fan and they were off to a hot start with Paolo. On the other hand, we're years away from mattering so it's easy for Simmons to get caught up in Suggs "doing the little things" and dismissing Barnes based on the basis of out of sight, out of mind. None of it matters and this will be featured on Freezing Cold Takes in a few months.

[tsherkin]

Scottie at averagish NBA efficiency is going to be more valuable than a purely iso scorer at average efficiency because Scottie can impact the game at both ends in so many different ways. That doesn't mean Scottie is a great player or a legit #1 option, but being able to contribute in other areas other than scoring provides added value.

His D is probably his best trait to date, yes.

And yes, his versatility is nice. But we aren't speaking about whether or not Scottie can be a valuable player, because we all know that he has the tools to be a contributor. Basically any criticism I have of him centers around deploying him as our offensive focalpoint, which I don't think he has the tools to do. But I'd sure love him as a third option, adding D, rebounding and some playmaking alongside better offensive players.

Being an effective offensive focal point isn't a necessity for being an all-star though. That's a necessity for being a #1 championship option, but Barnes can make multiple all-star games being an effective, all-around #2-3 option on a competitive team.

Sure. Unrelated to what I said, but yes, I can agree with that.

[sprewellchokes]

My rankings:

Tier 1 (potential multiple time allstars)
Barnes, Cade, Mobley

Tier 2 (potential borderline allstars)
Franz, Sengun, Johnson

Tier 3 (good starters, elite role players)
Murphy III, H Jones, Suggs

Tier 4 (the underachievers, unknowns)
Green, Kuminga, Giddey

That’s a good list. I can’t disagree.

[CPT]

I love Simmons, but this is a bad take.

The whole segment was about being impressed by Suggs, and I kind of thought he just forgot about Scottie and threw him on the list when he remembered, but he doubled down on it afterward. He was also pretty critical of Scottie's extension (another ridiculous position).

He's actually not a hot take merchant in the mold of a SAS or Perk, but it does seem like he **** on the Raptors for attention.

There are two things that might be worth discussing here though.

1. Is this closer to the leaguewide perception of Scottie than we think? Most people here will rank him 1 or 2, but the feeling I get from articles, podcasts, etc is that he'd be 3 *at best*. Of course, you can say that doesn't matter, and his production matters more than perception, but at some point they kind of have to meet.

2. Is Suggs closer to Scottie than we think? Scottie is better and will likely remain so, but if Suggs becomes the steady 3 & D PG many thought he would be, will he have an easier time fitting onto winning teams than Scottie? Just to repeat, Scottie is better, and I expect him to stay that way, but there's a chance Suggs becomes one of those media darling talked-about-so-often-as-underrated-he-becomes-kind-of-overrated-but-not-really guys.

It will be really interesting to see where all of these guys fall in a few more years.

[Quattro]

I love Simmons, but this is a bad take.

The whole segment was about being impressed by Suggs, and I kind of thought he just forgot about Scottie and threw him on the list when he remembered, but he doubled down on it afterward. He was also pretty critical of Scottie's extension (another ridiculous position).

He's actually not a hot take merchant in the mold of a SAS or Perk, but it does seem like he **** on the Raptors for attention.

There are two things that might be worth discussing here though.

1. Is this closer to the leaguewide perception of Scottie than we think? Most people here will rank him 1 or 2, but the feeling I get from articles, podcasts, etc is that he'd be 3 *at best*. Of course, you can say that doesn't matter, and his production matters more than perception, but at some point they kind of have to meet.

2. Is Suggs closer to Scottie than we think? Scottie is better and will likely remain so, but if Suggs becomes the steady 3 & D PG many thought he would be, will he have an easier time fitting onto winning teams than Scottie? Just to repeat, Scottie is better, and I expect him to stay that way, but there's a chance Suggs becomes one of those media darling talked-about-so-often-as-underrated-he-becomes-kind-of-overrated-but-not-really guys.

It will be really interesting to see where all of these guys fall in a few more years.

Just par for the course playing in a small market in another country. Kinda like OG Anunoby somehow turned into an incredible player in half a season where before then, he was an "overrated role player"

[Ell Curry]

The way I look at it, is how do builds look with them in their best spots:

Tier 1:
PG-SG-SF-PF-Mobley (I think he'll get even better on D, good mobility and reasonable skill for a 5)
PG-SG-SF-Barnes-C (good PF defender, an extra playmaker on O, passable shooting at the 4. Can he drive an O?)

Tier 2:
PG-Suggs-SF-PF-C (Sets the tone on D, we've seen how good Derrick White/Jrue types are if they are your #3 or #4 players, or even tied for 2nd best player like with Middleton in Milwaukee for Jrue)
Cade-SG-SF-PF-C (Big PG, should improve, but is he gonna be a better #1 or even #2 option type than most teams can throw out there? Most qualified to be a #1 on O here of anyone, though there's a case for Sengun because even average perimeter talent and him should be okay, but Cade has much less downside on defence long-term. However, you could probably trade him for a ton because teams with little talent need offensive cornerstones)
PG-SG-Franz-PF-C (good 2-way wing, toughest thing to find outside of a star, his shooting should recover from this dip, at least at times)


Tier 3:
PG-SG-SF-PF-Sengun (high upside on O, not so much on defence, particularly in the playoffs)

Tier 4:
PG-JalenGreen-SF-PF-C (Talent, might improve as he's young still, but I dunno seems like empty calories is the likeliest scenario)

[LascelleL]

The only person I can see making a case to be drafted ahead of Scottie is Evan Mobley. That's it.

[Tha Cynic]

If you listen to any comments these guys have made about the Raptors in general so far, they have not watched a single game lol.

[mrdressup]

It's a perfectly fine opinion that will change in time. It's not a given that one who is 1st in tear one will be 1 in year 4. By the time all these career are done it will look different. That's the only time it really matters, isn't it? What's to be claimed by claiming a guy is his or that along the way. No one will agree in the end either, but it should be clearer. As far as potential go we don't know who has reached closer to as high as they will go.

[djsunyc]

90% of simmons evaluation are based on his eye test.

look at suggs shooting this month. that 40+ 3% past month was a blip. back to reality.

he is still a really good player but he is not scottie.