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Political Roundtable Part XXXIII

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Benjammin
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1421 » by Benjammin » Fri Nov 8, 2024 6:15 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
Benjammin wrote:From Ruy Teixeira:

As they do so, here’s an idea to start with: have every Democrat ostentatiously say they subscribe to the following principles. These principles would signal to normie voters, particularly working-class voters of all races, that Democrats’ values and priorities are not so different from theirs. That’s a prerequisite for getting these voters to listen to Democrats’ pitch and take it seriously.

Equality of opportunity is a fundamental American principle; equality of outcome is not.

America is not perfect but it is good to be patriotic and proud of the country.

Discrimination and racism are bad but they are not the cause of all disparities in American society.

Racial achievement gaps are bad and we should seek to close them. However, they are not due just to racism and standards of high achievement should be maintained for people of all races.

No one is completely without bias but calling all white people racists who benefit from white privilege and American society a white supremacist society is not right or fair.

America benefits from the presence of immigrants and no immigrant, even if illegal, should be mistreated. But border security is hugely important, as is an enforceable system that fairly decides who can enter the country.

Police misconduct and brutality against people of any race is wrong and we need to reform police conduct and recruitment. However, more and better policing is needed to get criminals off the streets and secure public safety. That cannot be provided by “defunding the police”.

There are underlying differences between men and women that should not all be attributed to sexism. However, discrimination on the basis of gender is wrong and should always be opposed.

People who want to live as a gender different from their biological sex should have that right. However, biological sex is real and spaces limited to biological women in areas like sports and prisons should be preserved. Medical treatments like drugs and surgery are serious interventions that should not be available on demand, especially for children.

Language policing has gone too far; by and large, people should be able to express their views without fear of sanction by employer, school, institution or government. Free speech is a fundamental American value that should be safeguarded everywhere.

Climate change is a serious problem but it won’t be solved overnight. As we move toward a clean energy economy with an “all of the above” strategy, energy must continue to be cheap, reliable and abundant. That means fossil fuels, especially natural gas, will continue to be an important part of the mix.

We must make America more equal, but we also must make it richer. There is no contradiction between the two. A richer country will make it easier to promote equality.

Degrowth is the worst idea on the left since Communism. Ordinary voters want abundance: more stuff, more opportunity, cheaper prices, nicer, more comfortable lives. The only way to provide this is with more growth, not less.

We need to make it much easier to build things, from housing to transmission lines to nuclear reactors. That cannot happen without serious regulatory and permitting reform.

America needs a robust industrial policy that goes far beyond climate policy. We are in direct competition with nations like China, a competition we cannot win without building on cutting edge scientific research in all fields.

National economic development should prioritize the “left-behind” areas of the country. The New Deal under Franklin Roosevelt did this and we can do it today. “Trickle-down” economics from rich metropolitan areas is not working.

A Democratic Party united around these principles would be a far more appealing party to those millions of voters who are leaving the Democratic Party behind. It’s time to start calling them back.

https://www.liberalpatriot.com/p/the-shattering-of-the-democratic


So Democrats should just lie and abandon their core constituents? Great strategy.

No one says racism is the cause of all inequality in the country. That's a straw man. What Dems ACTUALLY say is that even if racism doesn't exist (not true! but for the sake of argument let's assume it is) the legacy of racism embedded in our institutions still exists and still has effects on outcomes. Of course allowing drug companies to get a whole bunch of people addicted to opioids and a number of other crimes against humanity are also part of why there are disparities in society. Who is doing anything about it? The Republicans? Please name one policy the Republicans are pursuing to help solve the opioid crisis.

"More and better policing is needed to get criminals off the streets" This is flat out wrong and we will never agree on ANYTHING if you continue to insist this is true. It is not. There is no real world evidence of this AT ALL. This is a moderate Dem position that drives me absolutely insane. Does having a cop point a gun in your face help combat drug addiction IN ANY WAY? Does having a cop point a gun in your face help someone having a mental health crisis? Does pointing a gun in the face of a domestic violence perpetrator help AT ALL??? IT DOES NOT. Also the premise of this "argument" is that crime is a big and increasing problem and it ISN'T. Certain neighborhoods that used to be nice are getting worse, and other neighborhoods that use to be crap are getting better. Well, everybody hates both changes, but in terms of crime the effect is a wash. San Francisco used to be really nice, but now the really nice parts that people used to like are going downhill. It's sad, but it's not true that San Francisco overall is turning into a big pit of crime. That's a right wing lie. Similarly after George Floyd's murder there were a bunch of protests but it wasn't the fricking purge like right wing media described it. Lies and exaggerations. Reduce expenditures on the tool that doesn't work - police - so that you have enough money to spend it on things that do work - mental health crisis teams, drug addiction intervention teams, specialized de-escalation teams for domestic violence incidents. It's SO GODDAMN STUPID to keep trying to hammer the square peg of police into the round hole of public safety. Be evidence driven!

I could go on but I'm too exhausted. I would tell you to "do some research" but then this probably is the result of you doing research by reading mainstream media, who are all idiots about this stuff. Maddening. And I could really do without the smug condescending opinions of some obviously ignorant 72 year old white guy who thinks he's all that. Less of Ruy Teixera please.


Help me now understand what the "core constituency" is now of the Democratic Party? It seems to be now that the Democratic Party has many more litmus tests to be considered "acceptable" than the Republican Party. On the flip side, the Republican Party has been completely co-opted by Trump. Is that a big enough coalition to win nationally absent Orange Man really bad or a rockstar like Obama? It's not your job to educate me, but I tried to highlight a variety of Democratic voices, but I agree that Ruy comes across as an old man yelling at a cloud.
What would be your elevator speech for the national Democratic Party that will win elections everything else being equal, which it never is of course?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1422 » by dobrojim » Fri Nov 8, 2024 6:43 pm

An all of the above energy strategy is not a wise choice. We have the knowledge and experience
to largely know what works and what does not, (which typically depends on location) which is not to say
we shouldn't invest in research. This is actually a place where the private sector and market forces have
combined to make wise choices. The govt, with its politically driven desire to benefit nuclear interests,
has been a disservice. It's not regulation that caused no new nukes to be built for decades, it's bankers
refusing to invest in an economically uncompetitive industry. That's even with the advantage of special
limits from liability that other forms of energy production simply don't need because they don't have
the inherent risk that nuclear does.

It's market forces that caused huge portions of KS to have areas where you can see windmills
from horizon to horizon as you drive along I-70. Renewable power, mostly wind or solar, also has the clear
advantage in that the source ie the 'fuel' of the power is free so it enjoys price stability.

Market forces have also driven the move to invest in efficiency gains. A cheaper and more environmentally
friendly form of energy is the power that is no longer needed because of improved design. Not sexy
but hugely economical. These are areas that the private sector is happy to invest in because the ROI
is generally much better than power generation and avoids issues with distribution which is a good
thing to minimize as distribution is inherently less reliable than efficiency and therefore less efficient.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1423 » by dobrojim » Fri Nov 8, 2024 6:59 pm

Benjammin wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
Benjammin wrote:From Ruy Teixeira:

As they do so, here’s an idea to start with: have every Democrat ostentatiously say they subscribe to the following principles. These principles would signal to normie voters, particularly working-class voters of all races, that Democrats’ values and priorities are not so different from theirs. That’s a prerequisite for getting these voters to listen to Democrats’ pitch and take it seriously.

Equality of opportunity is a fundamental American principle; equality of outcome is not.

America is not perfect but it is good to be patriotic and proud of the country.

Discrimination and racism are bad but they are not the cause of all disparities in American society.

Racial achievement gaps are bad and we should seek to close them. However, they are not due just to racism and standards of high achievement should be maintained for people of all races.

No one is completely without bias but calling all white people racists who benefit from white privilege and American society a white supremacist society is not right or fair.

America benefits from the presence of immigrants and no immigrant, even if illegal, should be mistreated. But border security is hugely important, as is an enforceable system that fairly decides who can enter the country.

Police misconduct and brutality against people of any race is wrong and we need to reform police conduct and recruitment. However, more and better policing is needed to get criminals off the streets and secure public safety. That cannot be provided by “defunding the police”.

There are underlying differences between men and women that should not all be attributed to sexism. However, discrimination on the basis of gender is wrong and should always be opposed.

People who want to live as a gender different from their biological sex should have that right. However, biological sex is real and spaces limited to biological women in areas like sports and prisons should be preserved. Medical treatments like drugs and surgery are serious interventions that should not be available on demand, especially for children.

Language policing has gone too far; by and large, people should be able to express their views without fear of sanction by employer, school, institution or government. Free speech is a fundamental American value that should be safeguarded everywhere.

Climate change is a serious problem but it won’t be solved overnight. As we move toward a clean energy economy with an “all of the above” strategy, energy must continue to be cheap, reliable and abundant. That means fossil fuels, especially natural gas, will continue to be an important part of the mix.

We must make America more equal, but we also must make it richer. There is no contradiction between the two. A richer country will make it easier to promote equality.

Degrowth is the worst idea on the left since Communism. Ordinary voters want abundance: more stuff, more opportunity, cheaper prices, nicer, more comfortable lives. The only way to provide this is with more growth, not less.

We need to make it much easier to build things, from housing to transmission lines to nuclear reactors. That cannot happen without serious regulatory and permitting reform.

America needs a robust industrial policy that goes far beyond climate policy. We are in direct competition with nations like China, a competition we cannot win without building on cutting edge scientific research in all fields.

National economic development should prioritize the “left-behind” areas of the country. The New Deal under Franklin Roosevelt did this and we can do it today. “Trickle-down” economics from rich metropolitan areas is not working.

A Democratic Party united around these principles would be a far more appealing party to those millions of voters who are leaving the Democratic Party behind. It’s time to start calling them back.

https://www.liberalpatriot.com/p/the-shattering-of-the-democratic


So Democrats should just lie and abandon their core constituents? Great strategy.

No one says racism is the cause of all inequality in the country. That's a straw man. What Dems ACTUALLY say is that even if racism doesn't exist (not true! but for the sake of argument let's assume it is) the legacy of racism embedded in our institutions still exists and still has effects on outcomes. Of course allowing drug companies to get a whole bunch of people addicted to opioids and a number of other crimes against humanity are also part of why there are disparities in society. Who is doing anything about it? The Republicans? Please name one policy the Republicans are pursuing to help solve the opioid crisis.

"More and better policing is needed to get criminals off the streets" This is flat out wrong and we will never agree on ANYTHING if you continue to insist this is true. It is not. There is no real world evidence of this AT ALL. This is a moderate Dem position that drives me absolutely insane. Does having a cop point a gun in your face help combat drug addiction IN ANY WAY? Does having a cop point a gun in your face help someone having a mental health crisis? Does pointing a gun in the face of a domestic violence perpetrator help AT ALL??? IT DOES NOT. Also the premise of this "argument" is that crime is a big and increasing problem and it ISN'T. Certain neighborhoods that used to be nice are getting worse, and other neighborhoods that use to be crap are getting better. Well, everybody hates both changes, but in terms of crime the effect is a wash. San Francisco used to be really nice, but now the really nice parts that people used to like are going downhill. It's sad, but it's not true that San Francisco overall is turning into a big pit of crime. That's a right wing lie. Similarly after George Floyd's murder there were a bunch of protests but it wasn't the fricking purge like right wing media described it. Lies and exaggerations. Reduce expenditures on the tool that doesn't work - police - so that you have enough money to spend it on things that do work - mental health crisis teams, drug addiction intervention teams, specialized de-escalation teams for domestic violence incidents. It's SO GODDAMN STUPID to keep trying to hammer the square peg of police into the round hole of public safety. Be evidence driven!

I could go on but I'm too exhausted. I would tell you to "do some research" but then this probably is the result of you doing research by reading mainstream media, who are all idiots about this stuff. Maddening. And I could really do without the smug condescending opinions of some obviously ignorant 72 year old white guy who thinks he's all that. Less of Ruy Teixera please.


Help me now understand what the "core constituency" is now of the Democratic Party? It seems to be now that the Democratic Party has many more litmus tests to be considered "acceptable" than the Republican Party. On the flip side, the Republican Party has been completely co-opted by Trump. Is that a big enough coalition to win nationally absent Orange Man really bad or a rockstar like Obama? It's not your job to educate me, but I tried to highlight a variety of Democratic voices, but I agree that Ruy comes across as an old man yelling at a cloud.
What would be your elevator speech for the national Democratic Party that will win elections everything else being equal, which it never is of course?


Not sure how I would define what the core constituency of the dems is.

That said, the core constituency of the GOP is the willingness to accept unprecedented levels
of corruption. Trump's first term was more corrupt than anything we've seen in a hundred years
or more. I think their voters think both parties are equally bad.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1424 » by closg00 » Fri Nov 8, 2024 7:25 pm

Just getting started, with a new DOJ headed by a Dump loyalist, no violation of federal laws will be enforced, no-matter how egregious. Fascist!!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1425 » by Pointgod » Fri Nov 8, 2024 7:55 pm

The sychopants are already out in full force. Must have gotten the marching orders from their billionaire owners. Keep in mind this is CNBC and Scarramuci is a god damn Republican

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1426 » by bsilver » Fri Nov 8, 2024 9:04 pm

Finally undepressed enough to venture online. Despite arguments here, it's still feels better to be among those with same basic values.

I imagine the party leadership is trying to figure out what went wrong. Their conclusions will determine future strategy, or maybe there is no agreement and the party, and us, are adrift politically for a while.

Basically there are three possibilities:
1) It was the economy, stupid. Inflation hurt a lot of families, and even though its now under control we're still feeling the effects. Maybe a strong candidate without ties to the administration would have helped, but Harris was not it.
2) Immigration/border policy is a mess. The Ds are in power and own it. There is the perception that crime is out of control. The Ds always own that one. The statistics may say otherwise, but it doesn't feel safe in a lot of cities. Here in New Haven it certainly doesn't. Trans rights are important, but the issue certainly makes for good R political ads.
3) Latinos are shifting to the R party. For some reason Latino men are identifying more with white working class men. If this is a permanent shift the Ds are really in trouble.

Some things we've learned:
1) Abortion rights wins referendums but not elections.
2) Upholding democracy, sadly, is not an effective issue.
3) What about the climate, maybe the most important issue of all? Not high on the list for most voters.
4) Foreign policy? Hard to imagine R voters supporting a candidate cozying up to Putin/KimJungUn, but it happened.

I have a feeling the D party will swing right. We saw it after the McGovern disaster in 1972, with Carter winning the 1976 nomination. And then with Clinton in 1992 after 12 years of Reagan/Bush. There will be a big push to court Latinos. Wouldn't be surprised if there is Latino candidate, though don't know who that might be.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1427 » by Rafael122 » Fri Nov 8, 2024 10:06 pm

bsilver wrote:Finally undepressed enough to venture online. Despite arguments here, it's still feels better to be among those with same basic values.

I imagine the party leadership is trying to figure out what went wrong. Their conclusions will determine future strategy, or maybe there is no agreement and the party, and us, are adrift politically for a while.

Basically there are three possibilities:
1) It was the economy, stupid. Inflation hurt a lot of families, and even though its now under control we're still feeling the effects. Maybe a strong candidate without ties to the administration would have helped, but Harris was not it.
2) Immigration/border policy is a mess. The Ds are in power and own it. There is the perception that crime is out of control. The Ds always own that one. The statistics may say otherwise, but it doesn't feel safe in a lot of cities. Here in New Haven it certainly doesn't. Trans rights are important, but the issue certainly makes for good R political ads.
3) Latinos are shifting to the R party. For some reason Latino men are identifying more with white working class men. If this is a permanent shift the Ds are really in trouble.

Some things we've learned:
1) Abortion rights wins referendums but not elections.
2) Upholding democracy, sadly, is not an effective issue.
3) What about the climate, maybe the most important issue of all? Not high on the list for most voters.
4) Foreign policy? Hard to imagine R voters supporting a candidate cozying up to Putin/KimJungUn, but it happened.

I have a feeling the D party will swing right. We saw it after the McGovern disaster in 1972, with Carter winning the 1976 nomination. And then with Clinton in 1992 after 12 years of Reagan/Bush. There will be a big push to court Latinos. Wouldn't be surprised if there is Latino candidate, though don't know who that might be.


I'm probably naive when I say this but elections need to be studied based on the time period we're in. In 2016, like it or not, there was a huge anti-Obama sentiment going around. Let's not even talk about the fact that some of it was based on his race, we couldn't dare have a black president. Folks hated the Clintons, it was the establishment, Comey did her in as well but add all these factors in plus Trumpism, and you get Trump as president.

Fast forward to 2020. I truly think if Covid didn't happen, he would have gotten re-elected. The lack of infrastructure that was at play here, and the handling of it all but assured that whatever Democrat opposed him, they would have won.

Fast forward to 2024, there's the war, there's inflation, there's immigration. Biden could have stepped down, we could have gotten a primary, we could have gotten someone other than Kamala, I still think Trump wins. The inflation issue was too much to overcome because it was going to be associated with any Democrat at this point.

All that being said, I think this election is another outlier. I don't think Dems will swing right, if anything this emphasizes the stance that they truly need to be in the middle. Kamala tried to run a moderate campaign but she went about it the wrong way. You don't need to pull the Cheneys and the never Trumpers into this. The other reason I think its an outlier is because I think people don't see Trump as a rep of any party, they see it as its own party. I believe they voted for Trump b/c of Trump. He will be 82 by the time he steps down, he's been about himself always, I fail to see how an 82 year old man, even if it is Trump will have the cache to swing 75 million people to vote for a JD Vance, or a Tucker Carlson. I don't see it.

I think Shapiro is the leading frontrunner, he comes from a swing state, he can rally the working class and he's an outsider. We'll see how these next 4 years ago.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1428 » by Pointgod » Sat Nov 9, 2024 1:28 am

Summary of the election results in 4 Tweets

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1429 » by Pointgod » Sat Nov 9, 2024 2:02 am

These people are going to face a harsh reality when the mass deportations start.

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1430 » by closg00 » Sat Nov 9, 2024 1:35 pm

After Trump's win, many despondent Americans research moving abroad

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-win-many-despondent-americans-064307329.html
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1431 » by dobrojim » Sat Nov 9, 2024 3:38 pm

Kuz is an idiot. Just my opinion.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1432 » by Pointgod » Sat Nov 9, 2024 3:46 pm

Absolutely disgusting but this what Americans have enabled. And the thing is that they’ll get nothing they want economically

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1433 » by Pointgod » Sat Nov 9, 2024 3:49 pm

So Trump managed to turn out the people who don’t pay any attention to politics. Crazy

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1434 » by Pointgod » Sat Nov 9, 2024 4:29 pm

Leopards eating faces is about to get a ton of mileage over the next couple of years.

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1435 » by closg00 » Sat Nov 9, 2024 4:41 pm

Pointgod wrote:Absolutely disgusting but this what Americans have enabled. And the thing is that they’ll get nothing they want economically

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Jesse Walter’s is one of the most loathsome pieces of **** on TV, he admits to meeting his wife ( he was already married) by letting the air out of his employee’s tire so he could give her a ride.
Walter’s also admits w/o shame or embarrassment that he bullied a kid in school by snapping a rubber band against the kids neck. What a massive POS.
Sorry not sorry I got triggered.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1436 » by AFM » Sun Nov 10, 2024 2:21 am




LMFAO!!!!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1437 » by TGW » Sun Nov 10, 2024 3:38 pm

CNN out here still lying. Trying to claim that this wasn’t a landslide. Ninja please:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters

A clean sweep of battleground states is always a political landslide. Moving the goalposts.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1438 » by closg00 » Sun Nov 10, 2024 5:29 pm

TGW wrote:CNN out here still lying. Trying to claim that this wasn’t a landslide. Ninja please:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters

A clean sweep of battleground states is always a political landslide. Moving the goalposts.


Currently Trump has 74.4M votes, 50.4% of the popular, a slight improvement over 2020 and 6M fewer votes than what Biden received so-far. Harris /Dems failed. The GOP has not won the popular vote in 36 years.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1439 » by Pointgod » Sun Nov 10, 2024 5:45 pm

TGW wrote:CNN out here still lying. Trying to claim that this wasn’t a landslide. Ninja please:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters

A clean sweep of battleground states is always a political landslide. Moving the goalposts.


Shouldn’t you be out celebrating? This is everting you want!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1440 » by closg00 » Sun Nov 10, 2024 6:05 pm

I can’t wait to see the MAGA budgets and legislation, one of the first orders of business will be enact draconian voter suppression laws to keep them in power indefinitely, once a Dictatorship begins it can sometimes take decades to vanquish them.

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