Cade Theories

[Drwho17]

I've often thought he's overly tired at the end of games, and this year from watching a few games that hasn't changed and he looks a bit doughy to me, the first thing I noticed on tv was that. I think his conditioning is an issue right now, but in previous years I'm not sure that is the case, it may just be his minutes need to be better managed or he just doesn't have great stamina, his play certainly falls off in the third quarter. In the small sample size this year and most of last year, it was a major problem, he was having issues closing out games, which really is a big deal in the NBA.

[mattao313]

Low tier 2nd option to mid tier 3rd option type of player. Ball stopper that is good at hitting open shots and mid range jumpers can't consistently finish at the rim or bend a defense.

Probably will make a couple all-star game like julius Randle and deangelo Russell

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[Canadafan]

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[breezypeezy]

Welp...... On the plus side of our Cade ledger quite a few categories where he's top 5 or better among NBA PG's.
-Assists 5th
-Minutes 3rd
-Rebounds 2nd
-Blocks 3rd
-Triple Doubles 1st

I believe hes also in the Top 10 for PPG and FG%.

Cade is a high usage guy, he has some negatives like the T.O.s but hes also producing fairly efficient in all these other categories. To read this thread you'd think there would be nothing but lopsided negatives and that just is not the case imo.

[Snakebites]

To be honest I'm actually decently happy with Cade so far. He usually gets off to very slow starts- this is a much better showing than we've seen from him in the early going. I like that his turnovers have been down the last few games, and hope that trend continues. The shot is still inconsistent but I think he's improving there too.

I don't think he's a franchise player- I don't believe he'll ever be good enough to be the undisputed alpha on a contending team. I think people measuring him to that standard are likely to be disappointed.

And yeah, I'm already hearing the chorus of "if he's not a franchise guy why are we paying him like one". And the answer to that is that we're paying him like one for the same reason Scottie Barnes, Evan Mobley, and Franz Wagner are being paid like it. That's the state of play.

[Billl]

To be honest I'm actually decently happy with Cade so far. He usually gets off to very slow starts- this is a much better showing than we've seen from him in the early going. I like that his turnovers have been down the last few games, and hope that trend continues. The shot is still inconsistent but I think he's improving there too.

I don't think he's a franchise player- I don't believe he'll ever be good enough to be the undisputed alpha on a contending team. I think people measuring him to that standard are likely to be disappointed.

And yeah, I'm already hearing the chorus of "if he's not a franchise guy why are we paying him like one". And the answer to that is that we're paying him like one for the same reason Scottie Barnes, Evan Mobley, and Franz Wagner are being paid like it. That's the state of play.

We AREN'T paying cade like a franchise guy. We are paying him like the 39th highest paid player. The rookie max extensions are dramatically lower than the super max vet deals the undisputed superstars get.

[breezypeezy]

Tonight Cade at the half, is already only a couple buckets from another triple double with 10 assists and 10 boards at the half. Looks like pretty good playmaking, Pistons beating Hawks handily.

[breezypeezy]

And hits the game winning shot and makes the game winning block........case closed.

Nothing wrong with Cade, hes still raising his game.

[Kalamazoo317]

I don't think he's a franchise player- I don't believe he'll ever be good enough to be the undisputed alpha on a contending team.

For the sake of conversation, is that what you consider to be the definition of "franchise player"? That they need to be the "undisputed alpha on a contending team"?

If so, how many of those do we have? The "undisputed alpha" part makes it really messy. Is only one of Lebron or Anthony Davis a franchise player? Or neither at this point (either because it's disputed or because Lebron isn't anymore and Davis never was?).

Lets look at last year's All-NBA teams to see who fits the definition:

Giannis, Jokic, SGA, Luka? Yep

Tatum? Nope. Plenty in the "disputed" category, didn't show up and show out that big in the Finals, wasn't the conference finals MVP or finals MVP for their championship

Brunson? Yeah, probably. Though I guess you could question A. how much of a contender are the Knicks really and B. if you put someone like Cade on the current Knicks roster in Brunson's spot would the ceiling be that different?

Anthony Davis? Maybe (see above)

Durant? Maybe (also disputes on his team and never seems to win big unless another all-time player is involved and never seems to want to be on a team without another all-time player)

ANT? Maybe (is Minny still a contender without KAT? Were they a true contender last year or just a bad match up for the Nuggets? Was ANT the driving force or was it the elite defense? ANT has the right attitude for it, but his offense disappeared against Dallas)

Kawhi? Nope, but due to health status not talent

Booker? Maybe/Probably not, you get into the Lebron/Davis thing with him and Durant. Also, did Chris Paul carry them to that Finals? Has Booker shown he can elevate a team or just be a good sidekick?

Curry? Yeah, of course, though even as much as he warps the team he can't make a bad/mediocre team a contender all by himself, as we've seen over his career

Haliburton? No, not consistent enough and I don't think the Pacers have shown they can be a true contender yet despite Haliburton having some all-star level running makes in Siakim and Turner

Lebron? Definitely at many points in his career. May have aged out

Sabonis? No, he's neither part of a true contender, nor the alpha of his team

So that's what, five locks as yes? And even then, can Jokic really contend without Murray/someone else complementing him pretty darn well? What's Giannis achieving right now with his aging team? SGA's team is doing well, but it's absolutely stacked with talent outside of him. Luka's the highest usage of the bunch and seems like an offense on himself, but even his team looked completely hopeless against the Celtics.

I guess I ultimately don't care if Cade fits some very difficult to nail down and subjective definition of "franchise player." He's the best player on our team, he's really good, he's good enough to be part of a contender, and he's a very easy player to build around and add to. If people are expecting him to lift the Pistons into the finals by himself like Lebron did on some of those sad sack Cleveland teams (the first of which got swept in the Finals by a real team) then no, of course he's not going to do that. But if people think he can't be part of the answer or he's not a real building block and a real piece (I know that's not what Snake Bites is saying) they're wrong too.

I think the "alpha" thing is way overrated. Who was the "alpha" on the 2004 Pistons? Ben was the defensive anchor, Billups was the offensive leader, Rip probably took the most shots, Sheed was the swagger, Prince was the glue guy. Were any of them really the "alpha"? No. Did it matter? No. Did it matter last year who the alpha was for the Celtics? No.

What matters is having a super talented team, getting everyone on the same page with good coaching, and then getting things (injuries, match ups, tips of the ball, etc.) to bounce your way enough times.

We're playing a heck of a lot better than we did last year, though. The offense makes sense, we're taking and making a ton more threes, the rotations make sense, we're playing with energy and playing together, there's consistent defensive effort, we're going down to the wire most games, and we're fun and exciting to watch for the most part. We still make dumb mistakes, have lapses, turn it over too much, go on offensive dry spells, brick too many free throws, etc., but so far it's night and day from last year, imo, and Cade looks like he's improving in just about every facet of the game.

But we have an extremely tough, talented league, the team is still really young and isn't full of all-star talent at every position. The important thing (to me) is Cade looks like a real piece and, increasingly, so does Ivey, and it also looks like they can play together, which is huge. Backcourt of the future? Great start. Build up from that foundation, don't freak out about it not being everything by itself.

[topsearch92]

To be honest I'm actually decently happy with Cade so far. He usually gets off to very slow starts- this is a much better showing than we've seen from him in the early going. I like that his turnovers have been down the last few games, and hope that trend continues. The shot is still inconsistent but I think he's improving there too.

I don't think he's a franchise player- I don't believe he'll ever be good enough to be the undisputed alpha on a contending team. I think people measuring him to that standard are likely to be disappointed.

And yeah, I'm already hearing the chorus of "if he's not a franchise guy why are we paying him like one". And the answer to that is that we're paying him like one for the same reason Scottie Barnes, Evan Mobley, and Franz Wagner are being paid like it. That's the state of play.

Maybe he’s off to another slow start again lol

[Canadafan]

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[smann7]

I don't think he's a franchise player- I don't believe he'll ever be good enough to be the undisputed alpha on a contending team.

For the sake of conversation, is that what you consider to be the definition of "franchise player"? That they need to be the "undisputed alpha on a contending team"?

If so, how many of those do we have? The "undisputed alpha" part makes it really messy. Is only one of Lebron or Anthony Davis a franchise player? Or neither at this point (either because it's disputed or because Lebron isn't anymore and Davis never was?).

Lets look at last year's All-NBA teams to see who fits the definition:

Giannis, Jokic, SGA, Luka? Yep

Tatum? Nope. Plenty in the "disputed" category, didn't show up and show out that big in the Finals, wasn't the conference finals MVP or finals MVP for their championship

Brunson? Yeah, probably. Though I guess you could question A. how much of a contender are the Knicks really and B. if you put someone like Cade on the current Knicks roster in Brunson's spot would the ceiling be that different?

Anthony Davis? Maybe (see above)

Durant? Maybe (also disputes on his team and never seems to win big unless another all-time player is involved and never seems to want to be on a team without another all-time player)

ANT? Maybe (is Minny still a contender without KAT? Were they a true contender last year or just a bad match up for the Nuggets? Was ANT the driving force or was it the elite defense? ANT has the right attitude for it, but his offense disappeared against Dallas)

Kawhi? Nope, but due to health status not talent

Booker? Maybe/Probably not, you get into the Lebron/Davis thing with him and Durant. Also, did Chris Paul carry them to that Finals? Has Booker shown he can elevate a team or just be a good sidekick?

Curry? Yeah, of course, though even as much as he warps the team he can't make a bad/mediocre team a contender all by himself, as we've seen over his career

Haliburton? No, not consistent enough and I don't think the Pacers have shown they can be a true contender yet despite Haliburton having some all-star level running makes in Siakim and Turner

Lebron? Definitely at many points in his career. May have aged out

Sabonis? No, he's neither part of a true contender, nor the alpha of his team

So that's what, five locks as yes? And even then, can Jokic really contend without Murray/someone else complementing him pretty darn well? What's Giannis achieving right now with his aging team? SGA's team is doing well, but it's absolutely stacked with talent outside of him. Luka's the highest usage of the bunch and seems like an offense on himself, but even his team looked completely hopeless against the Celtics.

I guess I ultimately don't care if Cade fits some very difficult to nail down and subjective definition of "franchise player." He's the best player on our team, he's really good, he's good enough to be part of a contender, and he's a very easy player to build around and add to. If people are expecting him to lift the Pistons into the finals by himself like Lebron did on some of those sad sack Cleveland teams (the first of which got swept in the Finals by a real team) then no, of course he's not going to do that. But if people think he can't be part of the answer or he's not a real building block and a real piece (I know that's not what Snake Bites is saying) they're wrong too.

I think the "alpha" thing is way overrated. Who was the "alpha" on the 2004 Pistons? Ben was the defensive anchor, Billups was the offensive leader, Rip probably took the most shots, Sheed was the swagger, Prince was the glue guy. Were any of them really the "alpha"? No. Did it matter? No. Did it matter last year who the alpha was for the Celtics? No.

What matters is having a super talented team, getting everyone on the same page with good coaching, and then getting things (injuries, match ups, tips of the ball, etc.) to bounce your way enough times.

We're playing a heck of a lot better than we did last year, though. The offense makes sense, we're taking and making a ton more threes, the rotations make sense, we're playing with energy and playing together, there's consistent defensive effort, we're going down to the wire most games, and we're fun and exciting to watch for the most part. We still make dumb mistakes, have lapses, turn it over too much, go on offensive dry spells, brick too many free throws, etc., but so far it's night and day from last year, imo, and Cade looks like he's improving in just about every facet of the game.

But we have an extremely tough, talented league, the team is still really young and isn't full of all-star talent at every position. The important thing (to me) is Cade looks like a real piece and, increasingly, so does Ivey, and it also looks like they can play together, which is huge. Backcourt of the future? Great start. Build up from that foundation, don't freak out about it not being everything by itself.

Great post!