2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread

[bisme37]

Celtics would make the playoffs with or without Tatum. He walked into a 50+ win team

Nuggets without Jokic is Wizards town.

Bucks would make the playoffs with or without Giannis with Jrue and Middleton.
During their best years

It's not one season. It's multiple seasons from both teams

Heck your beloved Curry had Green which gives you an auto top 8 ranked defensive team year in year out when played the majority (oh wait he did finish 3rd DPOY in 2021) and it supercharges Curry (once again look at the history together).

Poster's logic is in fact illogical.

There's a reason Nuggets are doo doo without him because they are doo doo without him. That is logic

The saddest part is that Jokic has not had a top 15 offensive or defensive player consistently by his side. None have had individual accolades at maturation to speak of and this his peak/prime. That falls entirely on the FO.

Garnett gets the appreciation but compared to Jokic it isn't the same.

This really has nothing to do with the current MVP race (Jokic is leading imo), but as our resident Tatum stan I always feel compelled to push back at the notion that he "walked into" a great team.

Tatum's rookie year was when Hayward's foot fell off in Game 1 of the season and then Kyrie was injured and didn't play the postseason. And rookie Tatum led the C's to game 7 of the ECF's. The Celtics rotation in that run was Tatum, 2nd-year Brown, Terry Rozier, Horford, Smart, Marcus Morris and Aron Baynes. Really not anything special on paper.

OK that's all I wanted to say about that.

[scrabbarista]

Jokic has averaged 33.2 mpg in the seven seasons since he became a fulltime starter. He's currently at 38.1, good for third in the league. I hate to see it. Feels shortsighted, even though I realize they're probably 3-6 (if that) instead of 6-3 if he plays his normal load. (Also, there were a couple of OT games, so that's added an extra 1 mpg.)

But, bad as it is, at least I'm not a Kevin Durant fan. He's six years older, far less durable, and playing 38.8 minutes.

[brackdan70]

Seems like a four player race 10 games in.
1. Jokic
2. Tatum
3. SGA
4. Davis

KD deserves a mention at 4 or 5.

Thus far he seems a rung below these 4.

[Jailblazers7]

Jokic has become so dominant that the only reason anyone has for any other player for MVP right now is "voter fatigue". That's literally the only argument you can make for anyone else these days.

If it was even close, you could chalk up this "voter fatigue" nonsense, but imagine realistically voting for anyone other than Jokic. A voter with any self dignity would be ashamed of themselves.

It has happened before & will happen again. Not saying it’s right - Jokic is clearly the best in the league right now by a considerable margin. But if the Nuggets aren’t a top 4 seed the media will be looking for a new, compelling narrative to vote for.

Tatum coming off Finals MVP having a career year & leading a 60+ win team will be too good for a lot of media members to pass up imo. I hope I’m wrong because I don’t like Tatum (as a player; great person otherwise) & wish nothing but bad news for the Celtics.

[Doug_12]

Davis is probably playing his best basketball in his life and it's only enough to be in the same tier where Jokic has been for years. Jokic is an insanely good player...

[brackdan70]

Celtics would make the playoffs with or without Tatum. He walked into a 50+ win team

Nuggets without Jokic is Wizards town.

Bucks would make the playoffs with or without Giannis with Jrue and Middleton.
During their best years

It's not one season. It's multiple seasons from both teams

Heck your beloved Curry had Green which gives you an auto top 8 ranked defensive team year in year out when played the majority (oh wait he did finish 3rd DPOY in 2021) and it supercharges Curry (once again look at the history together).

Poster's logic is in fact illogical.

There's a reason Nuggets are doo doo without him because they are doo doo without him. That is logic

The saddest part is that Jokic has not had a top 15 offensive or defensive player consistently by his side. None have had individual accolades at maturation to speak of and this his peak/prime. That falls entirely on the FO.

Garnett gets the appreciation but compared to Jokic it isn't the same.

This really has nothing to do with the current MVP race (Jokic is leading imo), but as our resident Tatum stan I always feel compelled to push back at the notion that he "walked into" a great team.

Tatum's rookie year was when Hayward's foot fell off in Game 1 of the season and then Kyrie was injured and didn't play the postseason. And rookie Tatum led the C's to game 7 of the ECF's. The Celtics rotation in that run was Tatum, 2nd-year Brown, Terry Rozier, Horford, Smart, Marcus Morris and Aron Baynes. Really not anything special on paper.

OK that's all I wanted to say about that.

Spot on. The 50 win team from the season before included IT, Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk. Those dudes were all gone replace by Hayward who missed the season and Kyrie who missed 1/3 of the season and the playoffs. Tatum was the man from day 1…

[KG Leonard]

Can we not compare Tatum and Jokic as players? I'm sick of seeing Tatum comparison diss threads where players who haven't done anything in playoffs like Ant, SGA is overhyped. Now there is a negative discussion because he isn't as great as the best player in the NBA?
Dismissing his years of great playoffs because Boston has other high quality players? You can hail Jokic as MVP but you can't dismiss Tatum because his GM has done his job and Denver's GM has done horrible job where a historical player like Jokic can't compete for the title right now. That's not a plus for Jokic, that regular season MVP is only thing he can win. I want to see my Celtics win the finals again. Who wins RS MVP will not matter for a contender in may, June. If Tatum wins MVP, I don't care.

Because this is an MVP convo and Tatum is in the convo, I think it's fair to compare. Tatum is having an amazing season and I personally think that due to narrative, Tatum and SGA have a higher chance to win the race but Jokic is the better player flat out.

Advanced numbers, raw numbers, eye test, doing more with less - Jokic wins all these categories. It's really no different when Lebron was the clear best player in the NBA for around a decade.

Of course this is MVP thread, talk about Jokic or Tatum chances but I don't see the need to talk about Jokic is better or how much. Jokic is by far the best player in the NBA most of us know that.
What I don't see the point of is talking about the playoffs history of Tatum like he isn't clearly the best player on Celtics. Someone just said Brad Stevens is the MVP of Celtics just to belittle Tatum. That's sounds like Jokic fans going too far like all those silly anti Tatum threads.

Talk about the regular season for regular season award.....

[Johnny Firpo]

Can we not compare Tatum and Jokic as players? I'm sick of seeing Tatum comparison diss threads where players who haven't done anything in playoffs like Ant, SGA is overhyped. Now there is a negative discussion because he isn't as great as the best player in the NBA?
Dismissing his years of great playoffs because Boston has other high quality players? You can hail Jokic as MVP but you can't dismiss Tatum because his GM has done his job and Denver's GM has done horrible job where a historical player like Jokic can't compete for the title right now. That's not a plus for Jokic, that regular season MVP is only thing he can win. I want to see my Celtics win the finals again. Who wins RS MVP will not matter for a contender in may, June. If Tatum wins MVP, I don't care.

Because this is an MVP convo and Tatum is in the convo, I think it's fair to compare. Tatum is having an amazing season and I personally think that due to narrative, Tatum and SGA have a higher chance to win the race but Jokic is the better player flat out.

Advanced numbers, raw numbers, eye test, doing more with less - Jokic wins all these categories. It's really no different when Lebron was the clear best player in the NBA for around a decade.

Of course this is MVP thread, talk about Jokic or Tatum chances but I don't see the need to talk about Jokic is better or how much. Jokic is by far the best player in the NBA most of us know that.
What I don't see the point of is talking about the playoffs history of Tatum like he isn't clearly the best player on Celtics. Someone just said Brad Stevens is the MVP of Celtics just to belittle Tatum. That's sounds like Jokic fans going too far like all those silly anti Tatum threads.

Talk about the regular season for regular season award.....

No, I did not say it to belittle Tatum. I said it because it's true, and I also said that Tatum could and should get better, because his best games are superstar games, he just isn't consistent enough, but could still become that, since he is still young, only 26, and could improve further.

[Exp0sed]

Because this is an MVP convo and Tatum is in the convo, I think it's fair to compare. Tatum is having an amazing season and I personally think that due to narrative, Tatum and SGA have a higher chance to win the race but Jokic is the better player flat out.

Advanced numbers, raw numbers, eye test, doing more with less - Jokic wins all these categories. It's really no different when Lebron was the clear best player in the NBA for around a decade.

Of course this is MVP thread, talk about Jokic or Tatum chances but I don't see the need to talk about Jokic is better or how much. Jokic is by far the best player in the NBA most of us know that.
What I don't see the point of is talking about the playoffs history of Tatum like he isn't clearly the best player on Celtics. Someone just said Brad Stevens is the MVP of Celtics just to belittle Tatum. That's sounds like Jokic fans going too far like all those silly anti Tatum threads.

Talk about the regular season for regular season award.....

speaking as a Jokic fan (tho i'm European, so I don't put much stock in the MVP award in general), praising Jokic and propping him up has nothing to do with Tatum. Tatum is a great player but he isn't winning the MVP...so this isn't a Jokic vs. Tatum thing, Jokic might not win (obviously, only 8 games into the season) but if he misses out on it won't be to Tatum, that's for sure

even last season when Boston had the best record by far, Jokic obviously won but SGA was ahead of Tatum as well and rightfully so.
winning a ring is irrelevant to the MVP race, Tatum is in the convo, sure, but he's not winning it.

Celtics are stacked and it hurts his case and it also hurts his raw numbers, which further hurts his case. not to mention, playing low mins due to blowouts where he sits in the 4th quarter.

he's just entering his prime and having his most efficient scoring season thus far, he's a great player, a champion and he's had a great career, but he isn't winning an MVP with 30/7/5 on an all-time stacked team, certainly not when u have someone like Jokic putting up video game numbers on that Nuggets squad, the gap in talent and production is just too large to ignore.

[CobraCommander]

So Giannis numbers 31 and 13 - make him a candidate if we are not calling out the team record .

[Infinite Llamas]

I mean, people treating Denver like a bottom feeder right now but they are tied for the 6th best record in the whole league. Would be third seed in the east…
Sure they haven’t had a very tough schedule yet but record should not be held against Jokic right now since his team is literally 2 games back from first place.

[Wolfgang630]

I don’t think it’s good to say who’s leading right now anyways. It’s wayyy to earlier. For now you can take away a group which have been playing at MVP level. By the end of November the list will shrink a little

[Wolfgang630]

Well Durant is now out of contention. His re-evaluation is in two weeks so who knows when he’s actually going to play. Dude when is the NBA going to change the rules? The way the game is played wayyyy too many people are getting injured. Human bodies were not meant to be push and tweaked and cover so much space instantly. I know he’s older. He’s not the only one injured, but that’s a broader discussion.

Read on Twitter

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[Jaqua92]

Davis is probably playing his best basketball in his life and it's only enough to be in the same tier where Jokic has been for years. Jokic is an insanely good player...

It's only enough to be in the same tier as Jokic?

By what metric?

[Jaqua92]

Because this is an MVP convo and Tatum is in the convo, I think it's fair to compare. Tatum is having an amazing season and I personally think that due to narrative, Tatum and SGA have a higher chance to win the race but Jokic is the better player flat out.

Advanced numbers, raw numbers, eye test, doing more with less - Jokic wins all these categories. It's really no different when Lebron was the clear best player in the NBA for around a decade.

Of course this is MVP thread, talk about Jokic or Tatum chances but I don't see the need to talk about Jokic is better or how much. Jokic is by far the best player in the NBA most of us know that.
What I don't see the point of is talking about the playoffs history of Tatum like he isn't clearly the best player on Celtics. Someone just said Brad Stevens is the MVP of Celtics just to belittle Tatum. That's sounds like Jokic fans going too far like all those silly anti Tatum threads.

Talk about the regular season for regular season award.....

speaking as a Jokic fan (tho i'm European, so I don't put much stock in the MVP award in general), praising Jokic and propping him up has nothing to do with Tatum. Tatum is a great player but he isn't winning the MVP...so this isn't a Jokic vs. Tatum thing, Jokic might not win (obviously, only 8 games into the season) but if he misses out on it won't be to Tatum, that's for sure

even last season when Boston had the best record by far, Jokic obviously won but SGA was ahead of Tatum as well and rightfully so.
winning a ring is irrelevant to the MVP race, Tatum is in the convo, sure, but he's not winning it.

Celtics are stacked and it hurts his case and it also hurts his raw numbers, which further hurts his case. not to mention, playing low mins due to blowouts where he sits in the 4th quarter.

he's just entering his prime and having his most efficient scoring season thus far, he's a great player, a champion and he's had a great career, but he isn't winning an MVP with 30/7/5 on an all-time stacked team, certainly not when u have someone like Jokic putting up video game numbers on that Nuggets squad, the gap in talent and production is just too large to ignore.

KP is missing most the season, and JB has missed the last few games.

Tatum has a narrative around him.

But let's make up our minds.

SGA apparently plays on a stacked team .. so why is his 26/6/6 on worse efficiency better?

Tatum leads race amongst anyone who isn't Jokic. You don't have to like it

[WarriorGM]

is this some kind of joke ?

if not, it is showing one of the greatest ignorance of basketball knowledge.

Especially giving all Front Office faults to Jokic may be symptom of most idiotic basketball argument of all time.

Tatum play with two all defensive caliber defender, potentially 4 all star level player. By the way Jokic best teammate is Murray, at best is average guard in this league. After seeing Jokic with Westbrook I'm in very doubt Murray can be a starter in any non Jokic team.

And Celtics won just 7 more games than Denver. Exchange Jokic with Tatum + defensive center gives 64 w to Denver ? It is more than absurt.

Jokic is doing everything ???? Are you sure ???

This dude's usage rate is 29 ?? Only superstars in modern era with that type of usage rate are Bird and Duncan. Jokic is probably best ever player to involve his teammates to the game. Jokic average touch time is 2,6. There is 191 players ahead of him.

If your argument is Jokic doing everything, is totatlly nonsense. Because Tatum hold the ball longer than Jokic.

With Tatum + defensive center makes Denver barely a play-in team, actually in the west I doubt it. they cant be a play-in team

If all Jokic needs is more defensively oriented teammates like the ones Tatum had then the opportunity was there for the Nuggets to snatch Marcus Smart and Robert Williams when they became available and let go of Murray and Porter Jr.. Do you think that would have improved the Nuggets? If so then you have a road map for the future.

There was a comment earlier that Jokic was the most consistent player the last few years. Actually that designation should probably go to Jayson Tatum who has made the playoffs every year of his career so far from his rookie year onward and the conference finals or better 5 out of 7 of those times. I could see a team of Tatum and prime Al Horford or even Robert Williams making the playoffs. You think that's absurd?

You are equating usage with function. They are not the same.

You’re pretty quiet tonight. What happened?

You missed me? I'm touched.

[Exp0sed]

KP is missing most the season, and JB has missed the last few games.

Tatum has a narrative around him.

But let's make up our minds.

SGA apparently plays on a stacked team .. so why is his 26/6/6 on worse efficiency better?

Tatum leads race amongst anyone who isn't Jokic. You don't have to like it

tbh, I wasn't aware that KP is gonna miss most of the season,what does he have? that changes alot obviously

I agree that SGA plays on a stacked team but he the Thunder aren't perceived that way. i'm aware that Jb has missed a couple but I was speaking in general, about how I expect the season to go, not about how it went thus far.

fwiw, I like Tatum, as a person and as a player so it's no skin of my back if he wins it, I just don't think he's a true MVP caliber player. imo, he's a shade below that.

[Pantsman]

Garland 4 mvp

[RB34]

KP is missing most the season, and JB has missed the last few games.

Tatum has a narrative around him.

But let's make up our minds.

SGA apparently plays on a stacked team .. so why is his 26/6/6 on worse efficiency better?

Tatum leads race amongst anyone who isn't Jokic. You don't have to like it

tbh, I wasn't aware that KP is gonna miss most of the season,what does he have? that changes alot obviously

I agree that SGA plays on a stacked team but he the Thunder aren't perceived that way. i'm aware that Jb has missed a couple but I was speaking in general, about how I expect the season to go, not about how it went thus far.

fwiw, I like Tatum, as a person and as a player so it's no skin of my back if he wins it, I just don't think he's a true MVP caliber player. imo, he's a shade below that.

The fact that the “Thunder aren’t perceived that way” is what’s wrong with this entire discussion. One set of rules for one player but those same rules don’t apply to someone else.

Last year, people on this forum were saying Jay Will was the second best SG in the league. This year, they’re saying Chet is the DPOY. Caruso is seen as one of the best guard defenders in the league, and for that matter one of the best role guys.

Jokic is the MVP for me but it’s kinda annoying how selective the rules are.

[BigGargamel]

Jokic has averaged 33.2 mpg in the seven seasons since he became a fulltime starter. He's currently at 38.1, good for third in the league. I hate to see it. Feels shortsighted, even though I realize they're probably 3-6 (if that) instead of 6-3 if he plays his normal load. (Also, there were a couple of OT games, so that's added an extra 1 mpg.)

But, bad as it is, at least I'm not a Kevin Durant fan. He's six years older, far less durable, and playing 38.8 minutes.

As a Nuggets fan, I don't want this either, but it further proves his MVP case. They need him on the court at basically all times if they want to win games. If this was the East, you could punt some games to give Jokic rest. Can't afford to fall behind in the West, even in October/November.