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Political Roundtable Part XXXIII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1461 » by montestewart » Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:37 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:They would be like "it was totally legal"

No, I think we'd know about it already.

I think they researched it and found out they'd almost certainly get caught and go to jail. Trump's judges made that very clear to them, I think.

Regardless, while it might be darkly hilarious for the entire Democratic Party/left to spend the next four years trolling about widespread election fraud both in and out of court because "people have concerns," it's probably not the path to victory in 2026/2028.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1462 » by closg00 » Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:43 pm

montestewart wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:They would be like "it was totally legal"

No, I think we'd know about it already.

I think they researched it and found out they'd almost certainly get caught and go to jail. Trump's judges made that very clear to them, I think.

Regardless, while it might be darkly hilarious for the entire Democratic Party/left to spend the next four years trolling about widespread election fraud both in and out of court because "people have concerns," it's probably not the path to victory in 2026/2028.


Dunno, Trump successfully brainwashed 70% of the Republican voter base into believing his stolen election narrative and that fueled his grievance themed campaign, perhaps it could work again in a similar way.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1463 » by Benjammin » Tue Nov 12, 2024 11:39 am

Pundits are going to pundit, but this list from Matthew Yglesias for Democrats to embrace certainly resonates with me as an independent.

A Common-Sense Democrat Manifesto

Economic self-interest for the working class includes both robust economic growth and a robust social safety net.

The government should prioritize maintaining functional public systems and spaces over tolerating anti-social behavior.

Climate change — and pollution more broadly — is a reality to manage, not a hard limit to obey.

We should, in fact, judge people by the content of their character rather than by the color of their skin, rejecting discrimination and racial profiling without embracing views that elevate anyone’s identity groups over their individuality.

Race is a social construct, but biological sex is not. Policy must acknowledge that reality and uphold people’s basic freedom to live as they choose.

Academic and nonprofit work does not occupy a unique position of virtue relative to private business or any other jobs.

Politeness is a virtue, but obsessive language policing alienates most people and degrades the quality of thinking.

Public services and institutions like schools deserve adequate funding, and they must prioritize the interests of their users, not their workforce or abstract ideological projects.

All people have equal moral worth, but democratic self-government requires the American government to prioritize the interests of American citizens.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1464 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 12, 2024 1:32 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Yeah the numbers you're talking are voter suppression numbers, not voter fraud. You're allowed to suppress voters. You shouldn't but you can. But I think what actually happened this election is Republicans got wise about early voting and encouraged their supporters to go vote early and it worked really well. That's the opposite of voter suppression, much easier and less legal issues. Republicans do everything better than Democrats. They're better at this. I hate it but it's the truth.


Doubt it. Sure. Polling places closing early etc. Moving ballot boxes across town. All that is voter suppression. Marginal numbers. And as you say, legal. Giving plausible cover.

Reports about early voting had Dems showing up strong. Early counts had the analysts convinced. No crush of GOP voters. No long lines and enthusiasm on the MAGA side. Steady leads for Dems.

And as usual the numbers did not match the analysis. At some point it’s reasonable to say hell, there’s a pattern.

Ask yourself If Trump could cheat and be guaranteed a win. Would he?

Who says no.

Now convince me it’s not possible.

If you had a billionaire funding you.

https://fortune.com/2024/10/26/elon-musk-political-donations-132-million-donald-trump-republican-races/

And a rogue state with a robust dark ops computer espionage program that continually is trying to exploit US vulnerabilities.

https://apnews.com/article/microsoft-russia-china-iran-israel-cyberespionage-cyber-d3a22dd2dcea32615ac15ed4fb951541

Unless somehow you believe they wanted to interfere but couldn’t. Were unable to. Were blocked in every effort. The richest man in the world and the most ruthless and powerful dictator. Were blocked in their aims because US Government tech wizards are too good at their jobs.


High early voting numbers don't help if all you're doing is reshuffling election day numbers. Turns out a lot of that early voting was Republican anyway.

It sucks that the Republicans were able to just win straight up. That sucks and wasn't what anyone was expecting, including them. Maybe the one silver lining in this is it'll stop the Republican voters from ish talking the election system. At least for now. So we get to keep having elections a little while longer.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1465 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 12, 2024 1:35 pm

I'm just going to pretend no one is condescendingly mansplaining what the dems should do
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1466 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 12, 2024 1:50 pm

I wonder what happens when you post links to bluesky here:

https://bsky.app/profile/perrybaconjr.bsky.social/post/3laqux3jad22y

Hypothesis here is that massive spending flooded in to the Republican campaign from billionaires alarmed at Biden's vigorous anti monopoly policies

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1467 » by Benjammin » Tue Nov 12, 2024 1:50 pm

^What about if it's womansplaining? Would that be ok? Or non-binarysplaining? Like it or not, this is what happens when a party loses an election. It may be annoying, but it beats denial, anger, bargaining, or depression. That's mostly what I've seem from Democratic leaders.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1468 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 12, 2024 1:53 pm

Benjammin wrote:^What about if it's womansplaining? Would that be ok? Or non-binarysplaining? Like it or not, this is what happens when a party loses an election. It may be annoying, but it beats denial, anger, bargaining, or depression. That's mostly what I've seem from Democratic leaders.


"mansplaining" means condescendingly explaining something you obviously know nothing about but think you do because you are a man

you are irritatingly condescending and clearly have no idea what the Democrat policy positions are on anything and have clearly been brainwashed by right wing propagandists, as have many, many white men surrounding me at all times and the last FRICKING thing I want to have is one more smug white guy who thinks he knows stuff he obviously knows nothing about lecturing at me in a context where I can't simply slap the stupid out of him

sorry if that hurts your little white boy feelings
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1469 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 12, 2024 1:56 pm

lol at Matthew fricking Yglesias, who I have blocked on twitter, being considered a "democratic leader," jfc
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1470 » by Benjammin » Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:01 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
Benjammin wrote:^What about if it's womansplaining? Would that be ok? Or non-binarysplaining? Like it or not, this is what happens when a party loses an election. It may be annoying, but it beats denial, anger, bargaining, or depression. That's mostly what I've seem from Democratic leaders.


"mansplaining" means condescendingly explaining something you obviously know nothing about but think you do because you are a man

you are irritatingly condescending and clearly have no idea what the Democrat policy positions are on anything and have clearly been brainwashed by right wing propagandists, as have many, many white men surrounding me at all times and the last FRICKING thing I want to have is one more smug white guy who thinks he knows stuff he obviously knows nothing about lecturing at me in a context where I can't simply slap the stupid out of him

sorry if that hurts your little white boy feelings


Why so emotional? It doesn't hurt my feelings. I voted for Harris. She lost. Life does go on. The system is perfectly designed for the results you are getting. Policing language is a losing proposition, which is why I gently satirized your virtue signaling.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1471 » by pancakes3 » Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:19 pm

closg00 wrote:I do love the GOP takeover partly because they now own it all now, they have to govern, can’t wait to see their budgets and legislation. The Senate will probably kill the filibuster rule almost immediately to grease the wheels.


GOP had this for Trump's first term and all they managed was a half-assed tax bill. Arguably they'll be better prepared this time around, I guess we'll see.

Benjammin wrote:Pundits are going to pundit, but this list from Matthew Yglesias for Democrats to embrace certainly resonates with me as an independent.

A Common-Sense Democrat Manifesto

Economic self-interest for the working class includes both robust economic growth and a robust social safety net.

The government should prioritize maintaining functional public systems and spaces over tolerating anti-social behavior.

Climate change — and pollution more broadly — is a reality to manage, not a hard limit to obey.

We should, in fact, judge people by the content of their character rather than by the color of their skin, rejecting discrimination and racial profiling without embracing views that elevate anyone’s identity groups over their individuality.

Race is a social construct, but biological sex is not. Policy must acknowledge that reality and uphold people’s basic freedom to live as they choose.

Academic and nonprofit work does not occupy a unique position of virtue relative to private business or any other jobs.

Politeness is a virtue, but obsessive language policing alienates most people and degrades the quality of thinking.

Public services and institutions like schools deserve adequate funding, and they must prioritize the interests of their users, not their workforce or abstract ideological projects.

All people have equal moral worth, but democratic self-government requires the American government to prioritize the interests of American citizens.


Nobody, from center-left onwards wants a robust social safety net - at least they don't want to vote for it. universal health care, universal pre-k, etc. Republicans are actively attempting to destroy the bedrock of the American social safety net - public schooling. Lots of people clamoring for vouchers to replace public K12, on both sides of the aisle. It's common sense, but people also want to arm the teachers, and think that public schools are teaching CRT, performing same-day gender reassignment surgeries, and letting kids that identify as furries use litter boxes. Tell me if common sense is prevailing on this issue.

And what difference does someone's biological sex have on anything? Are people not allowed to take rogain, viagra, get plastic surgery, wear color contacts either because it's contrary to their genetic makeup? hearing aids are unnatural and an affront to God? It's a private, non-political issue that only involves a person and their health care provider, and is made front page news, presumably in the free-est country on earth.

It's 2024, and we're still talking about PC culture like we're Dennis Miller in 1992?

And that last bit about immigrants is so lacking in substance, I don't even know if it's worth a quippy reply, much less a serious conversation about human dignity, economic realities, or how it's chapter 1 for Fascism for Dummies.

Benjammin wrote: She lost. Life does go on.


It might for you, and it might for me, but it won't for many others, and that's the problem.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1472 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:24 pm

Hard for me to imagine anything more annoying right this second than to be surrounded by smug white men telling me the Democrats must now adopt right wing propaganda as their core principles

Go stick your head in a bucket
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1473 » by AFM » Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:09 pm

These smug white men, are they in the room with us right now?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1474 » by montestewart » Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:19 pm

AFM wrote:These smug white men, are they in the room with us right now?

Here I come to save the day
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1475 » by pancakes3 » Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:24 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Hard for me to imagine anything more annoying right this second than to be surrounded by smug white men telling me the Democrats must now adopt right wing propaganda as their core principles

Go stick your head in a bucket


armchair analysts don't bother me nearly as much as white men/women who work in politics, specifically those who work in campaigns.

there's an IG account dear_white_staffers who has been sounding the alarm bells of white leadership ignoring the plight of minority dems and whose caution and advice has been ignored almost entirely. gaza, workers' rights (specifically lower income gig and wage-earning retail workers and delivery people, not higher paid salaried union workers), and courting the right (cheneys).

their latest push is to repost anonymous boots-on-the-ground volunteers and workers who said that white leadership have been toxic, aggressive, and incompetent in swing states. dozens and dozens of testimonials about how the Harris campaign's leadership was unprepared for both the logistics and messaging when it comes to canvasing and door-knocking.

and it's been obvious for years. salaried staffers pull from exclusively ivy-league educated ranks, and even if they do hire minorities, they come from upper-middle class backgrounds (poor minorities would never sacrifice the pay when they can better capitalize off their ivy-league education rather than work for slave wages as a hill staffer). Just out of touch staffers that transition into out of touch manager/director roles who get tapped into out of touch policy makers, and the entire pyramid has no idea what matters to every day americans. republicans hire state school kids who "get" it a lot more.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1476 » by AFM » Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:29 pm

Are you telling me a campaign centered around JOY when people feel like they are F’d economically didn’t work?

No one can afford a home but get Oprah and Beyoncé up on stage and I’m sold
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1477 » by Kanyewest » Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:36 pm

closg00 wrote:
TGW wrote:CNN out here still lying. Trying to claim that this wasn’t a landslide. Ninja please:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/09/politics/donald-trump-election-what-matters

A clean sweep of battleground states is always a political landslide. Moving the goalposts.


Currently Trump has 74.4M votes, 50.4% of the popular, a slight improvement over 2020 and 6M fewer votes than what Biden received so-far. Harris /Dems failed. The GOP has not won the popular vote in 36 years.

Bush won the popular vote in 2004, so 20 years since the Gilbert Arenas Wizards started to make noise.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1478 » by Pointgod » Tue Nov 12, 2024 5:55 pm

Shout out to all my both parties are the same people. This one’s for you.

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1479 » by Kanyewest » Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:00 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I'm just going to pretend no one is condescendingly mansplaining what the dems should do


John Oliver made a good point on "Last Week Tonight'' in that people are just going to double down on whatever they thought before on why the Democrats lost the election. Commentators on TV have both been arguing that the Democrats are ''too woke'' while others have been stating that the Democrats are not liberal enough. I do agree with Jon Stewart that the Democrats ran a very moderate campaign that was geared more towards converting moderate voters - one of the examples he gave was Kamala stating she owns a glock, many Democrats were against 'Defund the police' and transgenders competing in sports in their political ads.


My blame game with my implicit bias/venting-
- Harris is jut a weak candidate at this point in time- finished with only 3 percent support among the Dems when she dropped out in 2019 and peaked most at 15%. She doesn't carry a region or critical swing state like Joe Biden. I've heard liberals call her a corporate democrats. I've heard finance bros say she's too woke. She brings a lot of support from moderates I know in Maryland but those don't drive winners. Being ''brat''/coconut memes turned out to be overrated and did not drive the young vote.

- The American electorate is not logical. I.e. many voters did not show up to vote for Harris because of Palestine- yet Trump has a more aggressive position. Many voters voted for Jill Stein because she has more policies guided towards climate change or did not bother to vote at all yet Trump is far worse in not believing in the science. Unfortunately the results do matter as the right seems to be guiding the Democrats like guns, transgender rights, immigration, campaign finance etc. with every election cycle they win and the Democrats keep going more towards the middle which is in the more conservative direction. A difficult problem to reconcile with0 but whatever strategy Harris just ran was a losing one.

- It seems like only young charismatic Democrats can hold the tide in these elections like Bill Clinton/Obama. With the results speaking for themselves, Harris puts herself in the group of Gore/Kerry/Hillary and joins the group with Kerry to lose the unpopular vote. Although losing to Bush is one thing during a war is one thing, losing to Trump is another.
- VPs can make poor choices for presidents- for one they are usually not similar to the president that preceded them and for that reason may be unpopular in a general primary. I also think the primary process is ultimately going to be flawed in producing a good candidate - ie Southern States like Iowa/South Carolina play a huge role in deciding who will become president whereas the Democrats/Republicans need to focus on winning a swing state like Michigan/PA/Wisconsin (which is a big reason why the electoral college is flawed but for the sake of winning the election the Democrats appeared to fail miserably here unless Doc proves to right with the voter manipulation, which remains to be seen).


Random tangent-
I don't think the Democrats are ''too woke, a couple of people were suggesting to me in why the Democrats were losing- I disagree but i could be wrong. I think I would just point to apathy for the Democrats taking to long to condemn an unpopular war with Israel/Palestine which may have caused many to stay at home and inflation. Granted, Republicans have even more unpopular opinions on this along with the Ukraine/Russia war but the American electorate is prone to irrationality just like humans (ie I want to be healthy but I just ordered pizza).

For next time-
Can the Democrats make contingencies that are better than just nominating the VP if the nominee drops out? If that's the cae, not sure if the future president should just nominate a woman, but someone who can win an election down the line themselves. (or he could have picked Stacy Abrams that would have at least garnered some higher turnout in Georgia, although with the voting laws changed their, it may have been a losing cause anyways).
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXXIII 

Post#1480 » by DCZards » Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:23 pm

Has anyone mentioned that Kamala's sex and race may have been significant factors in her loss? Asking for a friend.

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