GT: Hornets vs Magic Nov 12 7pm

[KembaWalker]

Seems like you have a pretty big knowledge gap here, I would recommend you do some independent study on the x and o's of basketball.

For example. Have you heard of the Princeton offense?

The offense that had Princeton as the 14th best offense in college basketball in 2024.
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/offensive-efficiency?date=2024-04-09

and 11th best in 2022
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/offensive-efficiency?date=2022-04-05

Are you going to tell me they were only good on offense because of talent? Nothing to do with scheme?

There is a reason that Dan Hurley is praised as one of the best offensive coaches in college basketball. Teams are stealing plays he was running last year and inputting it into their NBA playbooks.

I knew it was going to be a college basketball reply irrelevant to the NBA. yall can have Mike Dunlap back if you want he could draw up a heckuva college basketball system

You are too far gone to have a real conversation with at this point. We can move on if you really don't think Josh Green is capable of making passes that 90% of college basketball players are capable of making.

you're too far gone if you think a princeton offense system is anything remotely comparable to what NBA offenses are doing. the NBA, you get a mismatch and you win on talent. I dunno how many times you need to watch LaMelo get targeted and destroyed. this doesnt take a "system", its basic exploitation that teams scheme up in 20 minutes before the game because they have 5 games this week and a 24 second shotclock every possession. you dont sit there and run NBA athletes on a drawn up play lmao, you get the best mismatch you can get in about 5-10 seconds and get to work. Unfortunately, our best and only mismatch is LaMelo or Brandon against whatever the defense throws at them, very much not Josh Green trying to thread the needle on Princeton backdoor cuts again NBA level defenders. were competing against actual players here, not UNC Asheville

[fatlever]

UPDATE:
@hornets
guard Cody Martin (Illness) has been added to the Injury Report as questionable in ORL tonight

[yosemiteben]

I don't know how we got here but here we are.

I mean...read the thread? It's only 2 pages, not that hard to track. You made multiple vague, difficult to understand posts on the first page of the thread, were you not tracking then either? Not sure what the difficulty in tracking the discussion is.

We got here because KembaWalker posited that there is no way to improve our offensive system, and in fact it doesn't matter what offensive system we have / we shouldn't have an offensive system. We are generally debating that argument and perspective.

LaMelo & Brandon are high end. This level of top talent is the best we've seen since the OG Hornets of the 90's. Some here were embryos.

They need help.

Fortunately, after we recover our Kai pick from the Tre Mann draft, Peterson will have the greenlight to build out from highly concentrated star talent, using draft picks and contracts that can be easily moved.

Hopefully Mark hops on the bus/train without breaking a toenail.

This doesn't seem relevant to the discussion that is being had.

[yosemiteben]

i think there is a misunderstanding here about how little passing talent this roster has. We have LaMelo and thats it. Grant is...okay...considering its a responsibility he never really had besides with us. Miller is getting a handful of assists because him and LaMelo are playing 2 man game but he's not out here passing guys open and creating anything good (inb4 but its cuz muh system! No, its not in his skillset). We don't even have a backup point guard. Its a major problem.LaMelo/Terry/Hayward/Plum and the stable of actual point guards we always kept around were much better if ball movement is what you are fiending for

I played into this and so I feel I should clarify. I personally don't view there to be a substantial talent disparity between the two squads, but I recognize that I might be an outlier in that view so I'll admit that I'm not super wedded to that view.

I view that as tangential to the argument of whether offensive systems are inherently bad / there are no possible ways to improve our offensive system, which I really fundamentally do not understand and feel much stronger about.

[KembaWalker]

I mean, I don’t wanna get it fully twisted, there’s certainly things that could probably be improved here or there, probably something more aptly called “habits” versus a “system” but by far the most important thing is that we simply need better offensive players

[MasterIchiro]

Okay, precedent.

Clifford coached without LaMelo 2 years. Many fans, MANY, gave him rope waiting to see if his teams would play differently with LaMelo instead of...ISH SMITH.

Now Lee finds himself short-staffed. So what corporate leaders fail to understand is that production/productivity suffer when you lose the services and work skills of your best employees, highly specialized. But they're not doing 2 jobs at the same time very efficiently or for very long. Threats to their job security only accelerate their burnout and turnover.

Talk to your people. They probably hate your guts but have better ideas about how to manage a short-staffed operation.

Lee doesn't have a rim protecting center with good GOOD hands who plays with high IQ and soft touch. Also missing Miles who was one of the few who can generate gravity and pull in the paint, leaving just Tre Mann.

[fatlever]

id like to see starting lineup of
melo, cody, miller, grant, diabate
see if we can improve our slow starts

id also like to see micic get another shot. we could really use another guy who can create for others. if he still looks awful after 3 games, sit him again for another month. unless his benching is equally related to his attitude. in that case, might as well keep him away from team.

[JMAC3]

you're too far gone if you think a princeton offense system is anything remotely comparable to what NBA offenses are doing. the NBA, you get a mismatch and you win on talent. I dunno how many times you need to watch LaMelo get targeted and destroyed. this doesnt take a "system", its basic exploitation that teams scheme up in 20 minutes before the game because they have 5 games this week and a 24 second shotclock every possession. you dont sit there and run NBA athletes on a drawn up play lmao, you get the best mismatch you can get in about 5-10 seconds and get to work. Unfortunately, our best and only mismatch is LaMelo or Brandon against whatever the defense throws at them, very much not Josh Green trying to thread the needle on Princeton backdoor cuts again NBA level defenders. were competing against actual players here, not UNC Asheville

I am not saying we should run the Princeton offense, was just pointing out they are probably outside the top 250 teams in talent yet because they run a good system it produces a high performing offense regardless of talent. Also, was used because I said the less talent you have the more you have to rely on a good scheme...

but here you are saying we don't have talent so we are forced to run bad offense just hope our best players somehow beat the more talented team. Which is the opposite of what I am saying.

I am saying because Josh Green, Salaun, Grant aren't great 1on1 players in order to get the most of out of them we should have more designed sets/plays etc that we can use them to set screens, move the ball side to side and get them driving vs a moving/rotation defense vs setting one screen and then hoping they can score vs a mostly set defense.

[MasterIchiro]

Lee doesn't have a rim protecting center with good GOOD hands who plays with high IQ and soft touch. Also missing Miles who was one of the few who can generate gravity and pull in the paint, leaving just Tre Mann.

I count 2 of 3 paint touchers/finishers missing.

No system can thrive given that dynamic (no paint offense). Can one survive? Yeah, we are 20th not 30th.

[KembaWalker]

you're too far gone if you think a princeton offense system is anything remotely comparable to what NBA offenses are doing. the NBA, you get a mismatch and you win on talent. I dunno how many times you need to watch LaMelo get targeted and destroyed. this doesnt take a "system", its basic exploitation that teams scheme up in 20 minutes before the game because they have 5 games this week and a 24 second shotclock every possession. you dont sit there and run NBA athletes on a drawn up play lmao, you get the best mismatch you can get in about 5-10 seconds and get to work. Unfortunately, our best and only mismatch is LaMelo or Brandon against whatever the defense throws at them, very much not Josh Green trying to thread the needle on Princeton backdoor cuts again NBA level defenders. were competing against actual players here, not UNC Asheville

I am not saying we should run the Princeton offense, was just pointing out they are probably outside the top 250 teams in talent yet because they run a good system it produces a high performing offense regardless of talent. Also, was used because I said the less talent you have the more you have to rely on a good scheme...

but here you are saying we don't have talent so we are forced to run bad offense just hope our best players somehow beat the more talented team. Which is the opposite of what I am saying.

I am saying because Josh Green, Salaun, Grant aren't great 1on1 players in order to get the most of out of them we should have more designed sets/plays etc that we can use them to set screens, move the ball side to side and get them driving vs a moving/rotation defense vs setting one screen and then hoping they can score vs a mostly set defense.

But that’s the thing, they aren’t good at driving. Josh Green already looks spooked by the rim. Salaun is pulling up for 3s as a 6’10 freight train on the fast break. We are setting endless screens but they don’t come with any actual threat from the screeners to do anything cause these guys are junk around the basket, including LaMelo and Brandon, and everybody on the other team knows it'

if we're getting down to something as generic as "the team needs to be less stupid and move around more and someone develops the as of now unshown ability to attack the paint" and calling that a system, by all means implement it today. i'm on board

[Liver_Pooty]

Cody is questionable with an illness

[yosemiteben]

No system can thrive given that dynamic (no paint offense).

Here is a list of the bottom ten teams in the league in points in the paint, and I have also listed their ORTG rank in parenthesis:

30 - BOS (3)
29 - PHX (13)
28 - CHA (21)
27 - MIN (8)
26 - BRK (15)
25 - MIA (19)
24 - CHI (25)
23 - NOP (22)
22 - MIL (20)
21 - GSW (4)
20 - NYK (2)

This effectively invalidates your argument in my mind. BOS, NYK, and GSW are 3 of the top 4 offenses in the league, and all are in the bottom 10 in PITP, with BOS being last in the league. PHX is a little better than league average on offense, yet is second to last in the league in PITP. MIN is a top 10 offense but is bottom 4 in PITP.

You absolutely can have an elite offensive system and have extremely limited paint offense.

My point is, and continues to be, that we can and should make tweaks to our offensive system. I don't like the low pace, I don't like the dependence on Melo hitting extremely difficult shots to have a functional offense, and I don't like the lack of intentional ball movement. These seem like fixable issues and I have confidence in the staff to correct them just like they have completely erased our defensive rebounding issue despite having a depleted big man rotation.

[fatlever]

paint touches are what matters. we need more paint touches to get defense scrambling. part personnel, part scheme. both can be true.

[KembaWalker]

We need a system that gives us a team like Jrue/White/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Porzingis/Pritchard and a Boston whistle. Unfortunately we have Salaun Green Gibson Grant Mann and the Charlotte pro sports whistle

[JustBuzzin]

I like the idea of acquiring another ball handler/facilitator.

There is this guy from NC who happens to be on a team that looks to be headed towards the lottery.

Brandon Ingram

Y'all talk about having something similar to Boston Miller/Ingram at the wings is damn near similar to Brown/Tatum. We obviously have Melo running the show if we can get Mark healthy that's our big patrolling the paint.

Could we get something done with Bridges/filler and maybe a pick. Obviously a contract agreement needs to be in place before we make that type of trade.

Just a thought.

[yosemiteben]

Read on Twitter

Mann out tonight.

[KembaWalker]

Lower back soreness? Seeya next year Tre

[EmpireFalls]

NSJ will have to go off or this game finishes 84-71

[fatlever]

Nsj. This is your moment...
Or micic

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[CuseMayne]

Grant starting over Tidjane