Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[Chandan]

The first game in March, is the 59th game of the season. If we are 16-42 (on pace for a 22-60 record) and we are rolling out a fully healthy lineup, Masai needs to be fired.

That is squarely in "This season was toast in January" territory, and any meaningless wins serve no purpose other than to kill draft chances, you make up injuries at that point. No one gains anything from wins in March, if they end up stealing a couple with lineups similar to the ones we are trotting out now, then so be it, but our FO should be giving them the lowest chance to win possible at that point.

how do u ask players to sit out like that?

The players aren't stupid, they understand that teams tank and the value of a high pick. I have faith that the guys would understand the purpose of it. They are competitors for sure, but if you are 16-42, what exactly are you competing for at that point?

Besides, people say we did it in Tampa, so why not this year? It's not like this is something teams never do.

I disagree with players understanding the tank. On every level they should and have to work against it. Unless they are some undisputed alpha untouchable franchise player, getting a high pick destablize their job security/role on the team.

Every starter have a chance to be replaced and be benched. Everyone except the top 5 have a chance to be completely bumped out of the rotation. Spurs offloading poeltl is a perfect example. Why keep around a guy whose play directly affects rather he gets replaced by wemby? Even if he adds 2 wins it would have affected their odds.

That's why the mandate and work have to come from the FO and coaching staff whose job isn't in jeopardy.

[Scase]

how do u ask players to sit out like that?

The players aren't stupid, they understand that teams tank and the value of a high pick. I have faith that the guys would understand the purpose of it. They are competitors for sure, but if you are 16-42, what exactly are you competing for at that point?

Besides, people say we did it in Tampa, so why not this year? It's not like this is something teams never do.

I disagree with players understanding the tank. On every level they should and have to work against it. Unless they are some undisputed alpha untouchable franchise player, getting a high pick destablize their job security/role on the team.

Every starter have a chance to be replaced and be benched. Everyone except the top 5 have a chance to be completely bumped out of the rotation. Spurs offloading poeltl is a perfect example. Why keep around a guy whose play directly affects rather he gets replaced by wemby? Even if he adds 2 wins it would have affected their odds.

That's why the mandate and work have to come from the FO and coaching staff whose job isn't in jeopardy.

Benching will happen regardless though, don't play along with the direction the team is going, get benched and be viewed as valued less. It cuts both ways, but as you said the management side isn't really risking much.

[Chandan]

The players aren't stupid, they understand that teams tank and the value of a high pick. I have faith that the guys would understand the purpose of it. They are competitors for sure, but if you are 16-42, what exactly are you competing for at that point?

Besides, people say we did it in Tampa, so why not this year? It's not like this is something teams never do.

I disagree with players understanding the tank. On every level they should and have to work against it. Unless they are some undisputed alpha untouchable franchise player, getting a high pick destablize their job security/role on the team.

Every starter have a chance to be replaced and be benched. Everyone except the top 5 have a chance to be completely bumped out of the rotation. Spurs offloading poeltl is a perfect example. Why keep around a guy whose play directly affects rather he gets replaced by wemby? Even if he adds 2 wins it would have affected their odds.

That's why the mandate and work have to come from the FO and coaching staff whose job isn't in jeopardy.

Benching will happen regardless though, don't play along with the direction the team is going, get benched and be viewed as valued less. It cuts both ways, but as you said the management side isn't really risking much.

But "benching will happen regardless" isnt necessarily true. There's a big difference between drafting 1st and drafting 8th. If next year's draft is as stacked as they advertise, then perhaps you are right. Whoever we draft might as well start on day 1.

Under more ordinary circumstance, a guy like Gradey could come in at 7th or 8th and not start, and he might even be a bust! If Gradey's a bust, then RJ wouldn't have to worry about being benched next year. This could be millions of dollars for the involving players and the effect cascade downward through every guy on the roster. I also think there are ways the team can tank without involving players and forcing them to work against their own livelihood. Therefore it shouldn't be up to the player to play along.

[mihaic]

Maybe if we draft a white guy named **** Cooper Flagg from Duke we can finally kill off the dumb Masai only drafts Africans nonsense.

Wait is Kansas in Africa? Gradey is a Kansan AFAIK.

[Raptorfan2012]

Maybe if we draft a white guy named **** Cooper Flagg from Duke we can finally kill off the dumb Masai only drafts Africans nonsense.

Ah yes, those Africans like Gradey Dick and Jakob Poeltl.

[Scase]

I disagree with players understanding the tank. On every level they should and have to work against it. Unless they are some undisputed alpha untouchable franchise player, getting a high pick destablize their job security/role on the team.

Every starter have a chance to be replaced and be benched. Everyone except the top 5 have a chance to be completely bumped out of the rotation. Spurs offloading poeltl is a perfect example. Why keep around a guy whose play directly affects rather he gets replaced by wemby? Even if he adds 2 wins it would have affected their odds.

That's why the mandate and work have to come from the FO and coaching staff whose job isn't in jeopardy.

Benching will happen regardless though, don't play along with the direction the team is going, get benched and be viewed as valued less. It cuts both ways, but as you said the management side isn't really risking much.

But "benching will happen regardless" isnt necessarily true. There's a big difference between drafting 1st and drafting 8th. If next year's draft is as stacked as they advertise, then perhaps you are right. Whoever we draft might as well start on day 1.

Under more ordinary circumstance, a guy like Gradey could come in at 7th or 8th and not start, and he might even be a bust! If Gradey's a bust, then RJ wouldn't have to worry about being benched next year. This could be millions of dollars for the involving players and the effect cascade downward through every guy on the roster. I also think there are ways the team can tank without involving players and forcing them to work against their own livelihood. Therefore it shouldn't be up to the player to play along.

I meant benching guys this year for better odds. Ultimately if the FO wants it to happen, it will happen regardless of the players being on board or not.

[wegotthabeet]

Absolutely.

The only question mark is the shooting/spacing.

Would also push assets to land Maluach too if possible and try to build an elite defensive team.

Raptors 2025-2026
Quickley
Agbaji
Barnes
Flagg
Maluach

6th man: Barrett
7th man: Dick

Bench: Mitchell - Shead - Mogbo - Olynyk
Developing: Walter - Chomche - Battle

I can't see us getting another lotto pick in the draft to grab Maluach, even by trading Poeltl or Barrett. Feels as if one of our 2026 1sts is a likelier route to us getting a quality defensive center, or maybe we can get into the 2nd half of the first round and Zikarsky will be there? I haven't seen him play, but he's huge and supposed to be good defensively.

Not sure about the 2026 draft and centers, hard to project that.

It doesn't feel like there's a bunch of Jarrett Allens or Derrick Livelys coming up in the draft, sadly, though it's hard to project that (even for 2025 this early, like Ngbonba at Duke hasn't played yet but was #21 on 247, Thiam at UCF just had 6 blocks against Texas A+M and is also massive, so maybe one of those guys comes out and we can grab them with the Portland 2025 2nd rounder which should be top 35).

I agree. Should be very difficult to trade into this lottery. Jak could land a mid first. Using that plus the Pacers 2026 pick could move into Maluach’s range depending on where he’s projected to go in June. Assuming it’s likely around the 10th pick. It’s unlikely in any case. Far more likely we draft him outright, which is less exciting.

[CazOnReal]

The players aren't stupid, they understand that teams tank and the value of a high pick. I have faith that the guys would understand the purpose of it. They are competitors for sure, but if you are 16-42, what exactly are you competing for at that point?

Besides, people say we did it in Tampa, so why not this year? It's not like this is something teams never do.

Big difference between the Tampa Tank and this season: Age. I mean there's also the whole "they were 0.500 at the ASB and only intentionally tanked later on after they lost 9 straight" thing but That Raptors team was on the older side and it was very unlikely that whoever they draft will replace their role. Hell, it wasn't even a guarantee that Toronto would even use the draft pick and most of the fans were surprised when Scottie Barnes was inserted into the starting lineup.

A younger team where you're figuring out who are your franchise players? Yeah, even if we ignore the financial impact of getting that second contract...players are not going to be enthusiastic that they might be losing games so that the team could potentially replace them. These guys are competitors, a desire to win comes with the territory of professional sports.

Put another way, Michael Jordan didn't just go along with Jerry Krause's intention to tank for a high draft pick because he wasn't playing GM like a lot of people here are without any sort of real-world considerations.

[Scase]

The players aren't stupid, they understand that teams tank and the value of a high pick. I have faith that the guys would understand the purpose of it. They are competitors for sure, but if you are 16-42, what exactly are you competing for at that point?

Besides, people say we did it in Tampa, so why not this year? It's not like this is something teams never do.

Big difference between the Tampa Tank and this season: Age. I mean there's also the whole "they were 0.500 at the ASB and only intentionally tanked later on after they lost 9 straight" thing but That Raptors team was on the older side and it was very unlikely that whoever they draft will replace their role. Hell, it wasn't even a guarantee that Toronto would even use the draft pick and most of the fans were surprised when Scottie Barnes was inserted into the starting lineup.

A younger team where you're figuring out who are your franchise players? Yeah, even if we ignore the financial impact of getting that second contract...players are not going to be enthusiastic that they might be losing games so that the team could potentially replace them. These guys are competitors, a desire to win comes with the territory of professional sports.

Put another way, Michael Jordan didn't just go along with Jerry Krause's intention to tank for a high draft pick because he wasn't playing GM like a lot of people here are without any sort of real-world considerations.

Cool, when we get the next Michael Jordan, maybe I'll change my tune. Until then, I'll live in reality where numerous teams tank every year, we have seen years and years of rosters filled with guys who are there for a paycheck.

I'm not saying they are just gonna yuck it up on the bench, or not try when they are in the game. But if your GM is telling your coach to sit players, the **** are they gonna do? Check themselves in the game? I never said they'd be cheering it on, I said they would understand.

[TheRealDeal]

The Eastern conference being this terrible isn’t going to help with the tank. Our schedule is going to be incredibly soft just as everyone gets back from injury

[Thaddy]

The best thing Masai could do is trade Barrett for a big man prospect in his early twenties. It would balance our line up, keep us on pace to tank and give more guys minutes.

A good trade would be something like Ivey and Stewart for Barrett.

Poeltl / Stewart
Barnes / Mogbo
Agbaji / Walter
Ivey / Dick
Quickely / Shead

Stewart is a good passing big man and he brings toughness to our team. I like the idea of having two fast combo guards in Ivey and Quickely. The back court would be set going forward with the 4 of Ivey, Dick, IQ and Shead. We would eventually replace Agbaji with another forward or shift Barnes down for another PF.

[OakleyDokely]

Raptors losses by 1-9 points: 5
Raptors losses by 10-19 points: 3
Raptors losses by 20+ points: 2

[earth007]

Fk, the Spurs could potentially have 4 1st round picks in this draft. Meanwhile we sat on Siakam, OG, FFV and GTJ until they could not even net us a decent pick in 2024 draft. Hope that play in game with Poetel was worth all of this.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Fk, the Spurs could potentially have 4 1st round picks in this draft. Meanwhile we sat on Siakam, OG, FFV and GTJ until they could not even net us a decent pick in 2024 draft. Hope that play in game with Poetel was worth all of this.

It's funny to think, if we're lucky enough to get one of the top picks this year. I'd take our top five players, over theirs...easily.

[Ell Curry]

I agree. Should be very difficult to trade into this lottery. Jak could land a mid first. Using that plus the Pacers 2026 pick could move into Maluach’s range depending on where he’s projected to go in June. Assuming it’s likely around the 10th pick. It’s unlikely in any case. Far more likely we draft him outright, which is less exciting.

The one possibility that really jumps out is the Pelicans.

Something like Poeltl + Boucher + The lesser of our 2 2026 1sts for their 2025 1st (say top 5 protected) and CJ McCollum would presumably improve them and save them 11M next year so they can re-sign Ingram, or trade him and take long-term money coming back, which feels like the only real way for them to get value for him, from say the Rockets or Spurs or Nets or whoever. And they'd still have the Lakers 2025 1st to add a rookie. But for now:

Poeltl-Missi
Zion-HerbJones
Ingram-HerbJones
Murphy-Hawkins
Murray-Alvarado

Poeltl to the Lakers makes some sense, but we wouldn't be getting a 2025 1st back. And I suspect they want to play AD at the 5 and just add some perimeter talent.

[bluerap23]

I'm worried about the tank brothers. We are doing great so far but Washington, Portland, Utah and New Orleans are looking way better in the long run. Hoping New Orleans can turn their health around.

[bluerap23]

I agree. Should be very difficult to trade into this lottery. Jak could land a mid first. Using that plus the Pacers 2026 pick could move into Maluach’s range depending on where he’s projected to go in June. Assuming it’s likely around the 10th pick. It’s unlikely in any case. Far more likely we draft him outright, which is less exciting.

The one possibility that really jumps out is the Pelicans.

Something like Poeltl + Boucher + The lesser of our 2 2026 1sts for their 2025 1st (say top 5 protected) and CJ McCollum would presumably improve them and save them 11M next year so they can re-sign Ingram, or trade him and take long-term money coming back, which feels like the only real way for them to get value for him, from say the Rockets or Spurs or Nets or whoever. And they'd still have the Lakers 2025 1st to add a rookie. But for now:

Poeltl-Missi
Zion-HerbJones
Ingram-HerbJones
Murphy-Hawkins
Murray-Alvarado

Poeltl to the Lakers makes some sense, but we wouldn't be getting a 2025 1st back. And I suspect they want to play AD at the 5 and just add some perimeter talent.

Really don't see them doing that. I don't think they want to keep Ingram and if Zion is out for an extended period they may just tank the season. They've been hit hard with serious injuries throughout the roster.

[earth007]

Does anyone else think Ace is going to be a better pro than Flagg? Flagg kind of stunk it up offensively against Kentuky. His ball handling and shooting are major concerns imo.

[PushDaRock]

Fk, the Spurs could potentially have 4 1st round picks in this draft. Meanwhile we sat on Siakam, OG, FFV and GTJ until they could not even net us a decent pick in 2024 draft. Hope that play in game with Poetel was worth all of this.

It's funny to think, if we're lucky enough to get one of the top picks this year. I'd take our top five players, over theirs...easily.

lol wut?

[ItsDanger]

I'm worried about the tank brothers. We are doing great so far but Washington, Portland, Utah and New Orleans are looking way better in the long run. Hoping New Orleans can turn their health around.

Portland has 5 wins already plus they just figured out their bench players contribute more to winning than certain starters. Pelicans will improve eventually. Utah and Washington look like the real competition.