Quickly coming to conclusion that Thibs system absolutely needs an elite rim protector to be successful

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Me and sham said it for a while now

There's a rim protector on the team, he's hurt, like always. And a poster leaving because his favorite player is hurt and he can't criticize the team is the funniest thing ever.

sham went out in a comical way.

Sham said recently he has personal stuff going on. I don’t think he left cause of Mitch

sham selling wolf tickets, tell him

Watch on YouTube

[TheDavinciCHODE]

I think we just need any decent rim protector to make this team better. We're playing 6 guys and don't have a single defensive big in the rotation right now.

This team is great on offense and terrible on defense, including rebounding. Those are two problems that a defensive center - Mitch or someone else - will help rectify.

Even just getting another rotation guy in here would probably have won us a few of the games we lost due to lack of depth.

I'm not worried yet.

We know that a team with KAT at the 4 and a defensive center is a viable playoff formula for success. And that Minnesota team had nothing close to OG, Bridges, and Hart on the wings.

I will be worried if we get a center who can play defense and one more rotation player, and still are losing like this.

But this team is nowhere near complete.

Did you all forget 2 seasons ago where people were saying "thib's system doesn't work" and "he ain't the coach for these guys", and "drop coverage is so dumb".

Thib's system made us a top 10 defense last season and that's with acquiring OG at the deadline AND him missing a ton of time. Had he been on this team all season, we'd probably be saying Thib's system made us a top 5 defense.

Like ANY system, Thibs needs a full roster of good players.

BTW, everyone kept complaining about how he was a dinosaur and that we weren't a good enough offense...we are currently the 4th best offense in the league.

TLDR: I'm not sure what you want this defense to look like with KAT at center, and it's our defense, rebounding, and depth that are a problem. Getting Mitch back or trading for another defensive center will help that problem immensely. And getting precious back into the rotation will help as well.

KAT + Brunson + OG + Bridges + Hart + Deuce is an elite offensesive rotation. We just need someone to defend and rebound.

Don't panic until we get that piece in there. If we're still bad, then I'll panic. But right now, the defense and rebounding suck, and that's what's killing us.

[KnixinSix]

KFS podcast said Minny tried to make KAT the center for years and it did not work thats why they had to bring in Gobert.

I agree KFS.

I don't believe we brought him here with the sole intention that it was KAT at 5 or bust. The answer is likely Knicks want to see just how much he can do defensively at the 5 and if that fails then plan B is to complement him with an elite rim protecting big where he switches between 4 and 5 depending on matchups and ebb and flow of the game. We just need a healthy 5 now (better than Sims)

[robillionaire]

it would be nice if we had the ability to play two big lineups or even just spell him for someone who isn’t Jericho sims. Out depth is destroyed. Both our reserves are injured. They found this guy Matt Ryan in the Best Buy geek squad and asked him to play basketball that’s how bad it is

It's a good option to have, but I still don't think Tom is creative enough to make use of it. Like if we had two bigs, Towns would have been on Williams yesterday, when he should be on the worst shooter . We pretty much never did weird defensive matchups when we had Randle, it won't change with KAT.

I agree with playing 2 bigs against certain teams, but doing it right out the against everyone is just as stupid as only playing KAT at the 5 and not switching.

I agree I’d probably only do it for spells. But we don’t even have a backup. He has to play 39 minutes all at the 5 because Jericho Sims isn’t an NBA player and the other guys who are serviceable can’t play.

[KnixinSix]

it would be nice if we had the ability to play two big lineups or even just spell him for someone who isn’t Jericho sims. Out depth is destroyed. Both our reserves are injured. They found this guy Matt Ryan in the Best Buy geek squad and asked him to play basketball that’s how bad it is

It's a good option to have, but I still don't think Tom is creative enough to make use of it. Like if we had two bigs, Towns would have been on Williams yesterday, when he should be on the worst shooter . We pretty much never did weird defensive matchups when we had Randle, it won't change with KAT.

I agree with playing 2 bigs against certain teams, but doing it right out the against everyone is just as stupid as only playing KAT at the 5 and not switching.

You have another good point here ...and THibs is NOT perfect. However if he does have that rim protecting C the defense very likely improves significantly . The sample size is pretty large when he has the right defensive pieces that his Defense can be dominant.

[KnixinSix]

I think we just need any decent rim protector to make this team better. We're playing 6 guys and don't have a single defensive big in the rotation right now.

This team is great on offense and terrible on defense, including rebounding. Those are two problems that a defensive center - Mitch or someone else - will help rectify.

Even just getting another rotation guy in here would probably have won us a few of the games we lost due to lack of depth.

I'm not worried yet.

We know that a team with KAT at the 4 and a defensive center is a viable playoff formula for success. And that Minnesota team had nothing close to OG, Bridges, and Hart on the wings.

I will be worried if we get a center who can play defense and one more rotation player, and still are losing like this.

But this team is nowhere near complete.

Did you all forget 2 seasons ago where people were saying "thib's system doesn't work" and "he ain't the coach for these guys", and "drop coverage is so dumb".

Thib's system made us a top 10 defense last season and that's with acquiring OG at the deadline AND him missing a ton of time. Had he been on this team all season, we'd probably be saying Thib's system made us a top 5 defense.

Like ANY system, Thibs needs a full roster of good players.

BTW, everyone kept complaining about how he was a dinosaur and that we weren't a good enough offense...we are currently the 4th best offense in the league.

TLDR: I'm not sure what you want this defense to look like with KAT at center, and it's our defense, rebounding, and depth that are a problem. Getting Mitch back or trading for another defensive center will help that problem immensely. And getting precious back into the rotation will help as well.

KAT + Brunson + OG + Bridges + Hart + Deuce is an elite offensesive rotation. We just need someone to defend and rebound.

Don't panic until we get that piece in there. If we're still bad, then I'll panic. But right now, the defense and rebounding suck, and that's what's killing us.

100% agreed here.

If KAT plays more 4 with an elite rim protecting and rebounding big...anything we lose offensively will be made up by our increase in rebounding and interior defense. Our D will look like it has when THibs has the right pieces and that's a D that teams absolutely HATE to play against (and usually a top 3-5 D in the entire league).

[KnixinSix]

it would be nice if we had the ability to play two big lineups or even just spell him for someone who isn’t Jericho sims. Out depth is destroyed. Both our reserves are injured. They found this guy Matt Ryan in the Best Buy geek squad and asked him to play basketball that’s how bad it is

It's a good option to have, but I still don't think Tom is creative enough to make use of it. Like if we had two bigs, Towns would have been on Williams yesterday, when he should be on the worst shooter . We pretty much never did weird defensive matchups when we had Randle, it won't change with KAT.

I agree with playing 2 bigs against certain teams, but doing it right out the against everyone is just as stupid as only playing KAT at the 5 and not switching.

I agree I’d probably only do it for spells. But we don’t even have a backup. He has to play 39 minutes all at the 5 because Jericho Sims isn’t an NBA player and the other guys who are serviceable can’t play.

Let's show a rough example to help bring this to light:

1. The 14-16 minutes KAT doesn't play

Mitch/Precious
OG
Bridges
Hart/McBride
Brunson

Line-up dynamic- That is very similar to last year's defense post OG in terms of having an elite rim protector out there and wing defenders. THere is also enough scoring on that squad , coupled with elite rebounding.

2. 15-18 minutes of KAT at 4 :

Mitch/Precious
KAT
OG
Bridges/Hart
Brunson

Line-up dynamic- This is also similar enough to last year's defense post OG in terms of having an elite rim protector out there and wing defenders. There is also near elite scoring overall on that squad , coupled with top 3 in league rebounding efficiency rate.

3. 15-16 minutes of KAT at 5 :

KAT
OG
Bridges
Hart/McBride
Brunson

Line-up dynamic- This is an elite offense with elite spacing and what we lose in rim protection won't be for the whole game (like now) but only for stretches depending on ebb and flow and matchups. This will be only 30 ish percent of the game vs. the 70 something percent it is now.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I think we just need any decent rim protector to make this team better. We're playing 6 guys and don't have a single defensive big in the rotation right now.

This team is great on offense and terrible on defense, including rebounding. Those are two problems that a defensive center - Mitch or someone else - will help rectify.

Even just getting another rotation guy in here would probably have won us a few of the games we lost due to lack of depth.

I'm not worried yet.

We know that a team with KAT at the 4 and a defensive center is a viable playoff formula for success. And that Minnesota team had nothing close to OG, Bridges, and Hart on the wings.

I will be worried if we get a center who can play defense and one more rotation player, and still are losing like this.

But this team is nowhere near complete.

Did you all forget 2 seasons ago where people were saying "thib's system doesn't work" and "he ain't the coach for these guys", and "drop coverage is so dumb".

Thib's system made us a top 10 defense last season and that's with acquiring OG at the deadline AND him missing a ton of time. Had he been on this team all season, we'd probably be saying Thib's system made us a top 5 defense.

Like ANY system, Thibs needs a full roster of good players.

BTW, everyone kept complaining about how he was a dinosaur and that we weren't a good enough offense...we are currently the 4th best offense in the league.

TLDR: I'm not sure what you want this defense to look like with KAT at center, and it's our defense, rebounding, and depth that are a problem. Getting Mitch back or trading for another defensive center will help that problem immensely. And getting precious back into the rotation will help as well.

KAT + Brunson + OG + Bridges + Hart + Deuce is an elite offensesive rotation. We just need someone to defend and rebound.

Don't panic until we get that piece in there. If we're still bad, then I'll panic. But right now, the defense and rebounding suck, and that's what's killing us.

100% agreed here.

If KAT plays more 4 with an elite rim protecting and rebounding big...anything we lose offensively will be made up by our increase in rebounding and interior defense. Our D will look like it has when THibs has the right pieces and that's a D that teams absolutely HATE to play against (and usually a top 3-5 D in the entire league).

That could work against the Cavs and Sixers, but it won't work against the Celtics. The Mavs had elite rim protection, 2 elite shot creators and floor spacing, they had a 106.7 ORTG against the Celtics. If you have just 1 non-offensive threat in your lineup they punish you for it, it's why the Pacers of all teams had the best ORTG against them in the playoffs (114.8), because everyone in their starting 5 was a threat. The Mavs offense was killing teams with a 112, 115.9, 118.3 ORTG prior to getting their heads crushed by the Celtics defense.

If the goal is to win regular season games, Tom's boilerplate coaching and 2 bigs will do just fine, if the goal is to win a title you're not getting by a healthy Celtics team playing 2 bigs, they have beaten that type of team routinely since 2018.

[DOT]

Even when we have Mitch, the system still works the same because he hasn't adjusted to the modern NBA. He still thinks it's 2008 where teams have one, maybe 2 guys spotting up for 3 off the PnR so you could sag off and send help. Even if we had prime Rondo and KG like he had, we'd still get lit up from the perimeter.

[KnixinSix]

I think we just need any decent rim protector to make this team better. We're playing 6 guys and don't have a single defensive big in the rotation right now.

This team is great on offense and terrible on defense, including rebounding. Those are two problems that a defensive center - Mitch or someone else - will help rectify.

Even just getting another rotation guy in here would probably have won us a few of the games we lost due to lack of depth.

I'm not worried yet.

We know that a team with KAT at the 4 and a defensive center is a viable playoff formula for success. And that Minnesota team had nothing close to OG, Bridges, and Hart on the wings.

I will be worried if we get a center who can play defense and one more rotation player, and still are losing like this.

But this team is nowhere near complete.

Did you all forget 2 seasons ago where people were saying "thib's system doesn't work" and "he ain't the coach for these guys", and "drop coverage is so dumb".

Thib's system made us a top 10 defense last season and that's with acquiring OG at the deadline AND him missing a ton of time. Had he been on this team all season, we'd probably be saying Thib's system made us a top 5 defense.

Like ANY system, Thibs needs a full roster of good players.

BTW, everyone kept complaining about how he was a dinosaur and that we weren't a good enough offense...we are currently the 4th best offense in the league.

TLDR: I'm not sure what you want this defense to look like with KAT at center, and it's our defense, rebounding, and depth that are a problem. Getting Mitch back or trading for another defensive center will help that problem immensely. And getting precious back into the rotation will help as well.

KAT + Brunson + OG + Bridges + Hart + Deuce is an elite offensesive rotation. We just need someone to defend and rebound.

Don't panic until we get that piece in there. If we're still bad, then I'll panic. But right now, the defense and rebounding suck, and that's what's killing us.

100% agreed here.

If KAT plays more 4 with an elite rim protecting and rebounding big...anything we lose offensively will be made up by our increase in rebounding and interior defense. Our D will look like it has when THibs has the right pieces and that's a D that teams absolutely HATE to play against (and usually a top 3-5 D in the entire league).

That could work against the Cavs and Sixers, but it won't work against the Celtics. The Mavs had elite rim protection, 2 elite shot creators and floor spacing, they had a 106.7 ORTG against the Celtics. If you have just 1 non-offensive threat in your lineup they punish you for it, it's why the Pacers of all teams had the best ORTG against them in the playoffs (114.8), because everyone in their starting 5 was a threat. The Mavs offense was killing teams with a 112, 115.9, 118.3 ORTG prior to getting their heads crushed by the Celtics defense.

If the goal is to win regular season games, Tom's boilerplate coaching and 2 bigs will do just fine, if the goal is to win a title you're not getting by a healthy Celtics team playing 2 bigs, they have beaten that type of team routinely since 2018.

I see your point but keep in mind, it's a bit more nuanced than that. With Mitch the theory is now we have FOUR elite wing perimeter defenders (OG, Bridges, Hart, McBride) who can cheat a bit more to the perimeter bc they can funnel inside to a beast in Mitch. Our D when Mitch returns (or a trade for a Poetl type) is arguably better than any of those teams you mention.

[KnixinSix]

Even when we have Mitch, the system still works the same because he hasn't adjusted to the modern NBA. He still thinks it's 2008 where teams have one, maybe 2 guys spotting up for 3 off the PnR so you could sag off and send help. Even if we had prime Rondo and KG like he had, we'd still get lit up from the perimeter.

We weren't getting lit up post OG last year until we got too ravaged by injuries to our starters.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

100% agreed here.

If KAT plays more 4 with an elite rim protecting and rebounding big...anything we lose offensively will be made up by our increase in rebounding and interior defense. Our D will look like it has when THibs has the right pieces and that's a D that teams absolutely HATE to play against (and usually a top 3-5 D in the entire league).

That could work against the Cavs and Sixers, but it won't work against the Celtics. The Mavs had elite rim protection, 2 elite shot creators and floor spacing, they had a 106.7 ORTG against the Celtics. If you have just 1 non-offensive threat in your lineup they punish you for it, it's why the Pacers of all teams had the best ORTG against them in the playoffs (114.8), because everyone in their starting 5 was a threat. The Mavs offense was killing teams with a 112, 115.9, 118.3 ORTG prior to getting their heads crushed by the Celtics defense.

If the goal is to win regular season games, Tom's boilerplate coaching and 2 bigs will do just fine, if the goal is to win a title you're not getting by a healthy Celtics team playing 2 bigs, they have beaten that type of team routinely since 2018.

I see your point but keep in mind, it's a bit more nuanced than that. With Mitch the theory is now we have FOUR elite wing perimeter defenders (OG, Bridges, Hart, McBride) who can cheat a bit more to the perimeter bc they can funnel inside to a beast in Mitch. Our D when Mitch returns (or a trade for a Poetl type) is arguably better than any of those teams you mention.

The Celtics aren't really trying to attack the basket, they're trying to get you to help on the rim so they can kick out for a three. There's nobody in the lane to funnel to, when Kristaps plays his average shot distance is 27.1 feet, that's the average three he takes. So, what happens to the rim protector is he's standing 27-30 feet away from the rim on the vast majority of plays that KP is on the floor. They negate the rim protectors impact by taking him completely out of the way, and on the offensive end they punish you for playing him. If we ever put Hart and Mitch on the floor together Mitch would be guarded by Tatum and KP would be on Hart, they'll help off Hart and have KP help Tatum on the glass.


This is exactly what they did to the Mavericks, their offense fell off a cliff because the Celtics can switch almost all the matchups, and their wings were big enough to gang rebound and keep Lively/Gafford off the glass, and both being so limited offensively it cratered their offense. That happened to everyone but Indy, because Turner was outside and they had to account for that.

[gavran]

Teams are better when they have a good-to-elite rim protector.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

[DaGawd]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

mitch for trey murphy les go

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

mitch for trey murphy les go

That ship never got out the dry dock, and the base where it was being built got bombed. The Pelicans rookie center is averaging 7/7/1 in 25mpg as a starter, basically Mitch numbers but with the proper calcium density in his bones.

[KnixinSix]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

That doesn't factor in OG really and Bridges for that matter. I am not insisting you are wrong per se but I want you to acknowledge that THibs system could still be at least more effective than you think (even vs Celts) when Mitch returns (roughly using the line up rotation I laid out in the above post)

[HEZI]

This seems to especially be true with a weak link defensively like Brunson. He’s just too small and really terrible defensively on the perimeter. Sure he can draw a charge and doesn’t a good job positioning himself in the paint for the charge but covering his matchup assignment on the perimeter, contesting a shot, playing passing lanes, helping and rotating to close out on the perimeter he’s just awful. He will always be a weak link defensively and we will always have to try to hide him on defense. So a rim protector probably works best for him because he can at least be encouraged to funnel his man into a better help defender.

Not sure switching really makes us all that much better, maybe some but we might just have that issue due to roster makeup.

We can use other teams as examples but most teams that are having success switching are doing it with bigger guards who have a defensive pedigree. Can’t use Boston as an example when they have two of the more elite defensive guards.

Brunson is crazy good offensively but defensively he does limit you with what kind of scheme you can really have success with.

[Gravy]

KFS podcast said Minny tried to make KAT the center for years and it did not work thats why they had to bring in Gobert.

I agree KFS.

I don't believe we brought him here with the sole intention that it was KAT at 5 or bust. The answer is likely Knicks want to see just how much he can do defensively at the 5 and if that fails then plan B is to complement him with an elite rim protecting big where he switches between 4 and 5 depending on matchups and ebb and flow of the game. We just need a healthy 5 now (better than Sims)

He does not have good defensive awareness or rim protection. This is from his Wolves days, its not just Thib's system causing it.

Watch on YouTube

[spree2kawhi]

Towns / Robinson
Achiuwa/ Towns / OG
OG / Hart
Bridges / McBride / Hart
Brunson / Payne

Where’s the problem?