Quickly coming to conclusion that Thibs system absolutely needs an elite rim protector to be successful

[rajajackal]

i'm not mad at the job kat has been doing at all. what we need is offensive rebounding and rim protection in that staggered lineup with jb after kat first sits. instead we have jericho sims. it's a big part of why brunson has not looked very good

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

That doesn't factor in OG really and Bridges for that matter. I am not insisting you are wrong per se but I want you to acknowledge that THibs system could still be at least more effective than you think (even vs Celts) when Mitch returns (roughly using the line up rotation I laid out in the above post)

What I'm saying is the Celtics have a tried and true formula for teams with bigs that can't score, it's the same one the Warriors used, and hoping that our version of it can beat that system isn't going to happen.


The problem right now, before the centers even come back is scheme. The Kings are 10th in the NBA in DRTG, how is that possible? They don't have a rim protector, they have 1 good perimeter defender in Ellis, so how is it possible they're better than us with 4 elite perimeter defenders as you said. We should be better, but the coach doesn't put us in a position for success because he does not have his guy, that is just bad coaching. On no planet should the kings be better than us on defense, but they are, and that comes down to coaching because we have the better personnel.

[Capn'O]

Thibs probably isn't the final answer with this group but he's going to have at least the year to try to figure it out by doing Thibs things. They just extended him. My guess is expectations are high though. ECF or bust. Something of that nature.

[JayTWill]

This is the conundrum. Do you stick with Thibs knowing you need to run a very specific system (at least part of the time)? Because we do know for a fact his system is dominant when it has the right personnel. Or do you move on to a coach who can potentially succeed without the rim protecting Center and then obviously the unknown of whether you picked a good enough coach or not?

KAT next to a center won't work against the Celtics, like stressing rim protection against a team that takes 50 threes is pointless. The fact we came out and played in a drop against them tells me Tom isn't the man for the job anyway.

I want a coach that will adjust to who were playing, if we had a younger more progressive coach we would have put KAT on Giddey and OG on Vucevic, and had KAT help off Giddey. If you're going to lose the game because Giddey is hitting threes and scoring 20+ so be it, but last night he was a non threat and they guarded him in a way that let the Bulls off the hook. You guard him with your C like teams have done to us with their big on Josh. If the game calls for playing two bigs then do it, but we have a coach that does boiler plate coaching, one size fits all. And that won't work in the end because you need to adjust, especially with how varied teams go about getting their offense now. Yes everyone takes threes but they all do it differently.

I'm not even saying you are wrong here. But for better or worse if Rose and company are tied to Thibs they will probably wait to see what this team looks like when it has a true 5.

Beating the Celtics will feature a mix of playing a rim protector and then KAT some time at the 4. In fact last year when we still had some health and OG and that rim protector, we destroyed the Celts on their home court.

I wouldn't overreact to that 1 game against the Celtics when they had the top seed clinched. Boston was just coming off a game against the Bucks where they were the first team to ever have zero free throw attempts. They may not have been competing that hard at the end of the season. They also destroyed our defense multiple times with Mitch and iHart earlier in the season and the Knicks defense wasn't actually that good at the end of last regular season or in the postseason with our defensive bigs and OG.

I feel like the defense of last year has become a bit overrated just based on the dominance of a few stretches.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=knicks+2023-2024+defensive+rating+by+month

[sol537]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

That doesn't factor in OG really and Bridges for that matter. I am not insisting you are wrong per se but I want you to acknowledge that THibs system could still be at least more effective than you think (even vs Celts) when Mitch returns (roughly using the line up rotation I laid out in the above post)

What I'm saying is the Celtics have a tried and true formula for teams with bigs that can't score, it's the same one the Warriors used, and hoping that our version of it can beat that system isn't going to happen.


The problem right now, before the centers even come back is scheme. The Kings are 10th in the NBA in DRTG, how is that possible? They don't have a rim protector, they have 1 good perimeter defender in Ellis, so how is it possible they're better than us with 4 elite perimeter defenders as you said. We should be better, but the coach doesn't put us in a position for success because he does not have his guy, that is just bad coaching. On no planet should the kings be better than us on defense, but they are, and that comes down to coaching because we have the better personnel.

Thibs has failed in these first 11 games so far... no doubt about it. There's still time and the East stinks so he'll have a long leash.

[JBreezeNY]

NoDope in here spittin.

[KnixinSix]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

That doesn't factor in OG really and Bridges for that matter. I am not insisting you are wrong per se but I want you to acknowledge that THibs system could still be at least more effective than you think (even vs Celts) when Mitch returns (roughly using the line up rotation I laid out in the above post)

What I'm saying is the Celtics have a tried and true formula for teams with bigs that can't score, it's the same one the Warriors used, and hoping that our version of it can beat that system isn't going to happen.


The problem right now, before the centers even come back is scheme. The Kings are 10th in the NBA in DRTG, how is that possible? They don't have a rim protector, they have 1 good perimeter defender in Ellis, so how is it possible they're better than us with 4 elite perimeter defenders as you said. We should be better, but the coach doesn't put us in a position for success because he does not have his guy, that is just bad coaching. On no planet should the kings be better than us on defense, but they are, and that comes down to coaching because we have the better personnel.

Im not in disagreement with this. There are other coaches who can do better without the rim protector than Thibs.

However IF he has that rim protector the system works. Does it work well enough to win a championship with? I think so but as you said it is certainly debateble.

[HEZI]

Just checked, Mitch had a negative net rating against the Celtics last year, -12.1.

He's not the fix against that team, adding another wing that can defend would help us more. You load up on wings to combat 5 out, we need one more.

That doesn't factor in OG really and Bridges for that matter. I am not insisting you are wrong per se but I want you to acknowledge that THibs system could still be at least more effective than you think (even vs Celts) when Mitch returns (roughly using the line up rotation I laid out in the above post)

What I'm saying is the Celtics have a tried and true formula for teams with bigs that can't score, it's the same one the Warriors used, and hoping that our version of it can beat that system isn't going to happen.


The problem right now, before the centers even come back is scheme. The Kings are 10th in the NBA in DRTG, how is that possible? They don't have a rim protector, they have 1 good perimeter defender in Ellis, so how is it possible they're better than us with 4 elite perimeter defenders as you said. We should be better, but the coach doesn't put us in a position for success because he does not have his guy, that is just bad coaching. On no planet should the kings be better than us on defense, but they are, and that comes down to coaching because we have the better personnel.

This is not true at all. Fox is a hound on defense, Keegan Murray has been excellent defensively, even Demar has been solid. Their only real weak link is Huerter but he’s had moments of being solid but overall they don’t have just one good defender that’s not true. If you watch DeAaron Fox ball pressure and then you watch Brunson then it will make more sense why they are better.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

That doesn't factor in OG really and Bridges for that matter. I am not insisting you are wrong per se but I want you to acknowledge that THibs system could still be at least more effective than you think (even vs Celts) when Mitch returns (roughly using the line up rotation I laid out in the above post)

What I'm saying is the Celtics have a tried and true formula for teams with bigs that can't score, it's the same one the Warriors used, and hoping that our version of it can beat that system isn't going to happen.


The problem right now, before the centers even come back is scheme. The Kings are 10th in the NBA in DRTG, how is that possible? They don't have a rim protector, they have 1 good perimeter defender in Ellis, so how is it possible they're better than us with 4 elite perimeter defenders as you said. We should be better, but the coach doesn't put us in a position for success because he does not have his guy, that is just bad coaching. On no planet should the kings be better than us on defense, but they are, and that comes down to coaching because we have the better personnel.

This is not true at all. Fox is a hound on defense, Keegan Murray has been excellent defensively, even Demar has been solid. Their only real weak link is Huerter but he’s had moments of being solid but overall they don’t have just one good defender that’s not true. If you watch DeAaron Fox ball pressure and then you watch Brunson then it will make more sense why they are better.

Sabonis isn't a rim protector, the argument is that our defense is bad because we can't protect the rim, but the Kings have a guy playing C that has anchored some horrific defensive teams and they're playing defense with him as the backbone. We have better perimeter defenders than them, yet our perimeter defense hasn't been good. They don't keep him in a deep drop and generally try to play him at the level, we don't do that with KAT, we use him like we would any other big center Tom would coach, even though his strengths are more in line with defending how the Kings are currently using Sabonis. You drop against bad shooters; you don't drop against the Celtics.

[Hatrick Ewing]

Some bigmen that are playing low MPG this year:

Dwight Powell 9.3 mpg
Kai Jones 8.2 mpg
Alex Len 7.4 mpg
Marvin Bagley 6 mpg
Zach collins 14 mpg
Jalen smith 14 mpg
Brandon Clarke 15 mpg
Kyle filipowski 15 mpg (we should've drafted him)
noah Clooney 16 mpg
Chris boucher 19 mpg

[HEZI]

What I'm saying is the Celtics have a tried and true formula for teams with bigs that can't score, it's the same one the Warriors used, and hoping that our version of it can beat that system isn't going to happen.


The problem right now, before the centers even come back is scheme. The Kings are 10th in the NBA in DRTG, how is that possible? They don't have a rim protector, they have 1 good perimeter defender in Ellis, so how is it possible they're better than us with 4 elite perimeter defenders as you said. We should be better, but the coach doesn't put us in a position for success because he does not have his guy, that is just bad coaching. On no planet should the kings be better than us on defense, but they are, and that comes down to coaching because we have the better personnel.

This is not true at all. Fox is a hound on defense, Keegan Murray has been excellent defensively, even Demar has been solid. Their only real weak link is Huerter but he’s had moments of being solid but overall they don’t have just one good defender that’s not true. If you watch DeAaron Fox ball pressure and then you watch Brunson then it will make more sense why they are better.

Sabonis isn't a rim protector, the argument is that our defense is bad because we can't protect the rim, but the Kings have a guy playing C that has anchored some horrific defensive teams and they're playing defense with him as the backbone. We have better perimeter defenders than them, yet our perimeter defense hasn't been good. They don't keep him in a deep drop and generally try to play him at the level, we don't do that with KAT, we use him like we would any other big center Tom would coach, even though his strengths are more in line with defending how the Kings are currently using Sabonis. You drop against bad shooters; you don't drop against the Celtics.

But you are still underestimating the other Kings players for their defensive effort and abilities. Scheme is one thing but when I see Mikal Bridges out on skates by multiple opposing players game in game out, that’s not a scheme issue anymore. Brunson can’t defend ball handlers so he’s always getting beat off the dribble, so that’s not a scheme issue either. It’s really been just OG and Josh Hart playing good defense night in night out. KAT has been good, bad and ugly on that end and on that I can certainly attribute some of it to scheme.

But overall the Kings are a lot better this year for several reasons, one is they pretty much have the same team and besides losing Barnes and getting Demar, the rest of the team is pretty much the same and they do have familiarity and know what the coach wants them to do at this point. Another thing is they do have guys who are growing and getting better, I mentioned Keegan Murray but he’s really taken a step up defensively this year. Fox is a better defender than any guard we have besides maybe Deuce who is our 6th man.

But I want to know what is wrong with Mikal and why he looks so bad defensively. I can understand adjusting to scheme and sometimes being out of position but I don’t understand the 1 on 1 defense and poor awareness and effort in those situations. He looks like he’s on skates sometimes and other times just looks like he doesn’t care. Something there is off and it doesn’t look scheme related. It’s like dude just forgot how to play defense or was never that good to begin with, I’m not sure

[JBreezeNY]

This is not true at all. Fox is a hound on defense, Keegan Murray has been excellent defensively, even Demar has been solid. Their only real weak link is Huerter but he’s had moments of being solid but overall they don’t have just one good defender that’s not true. If you watch DeAaron Fox ball pressure and then you watch Brunson then it will make more sense why they are better.

Sabonis isn't a rim protector, the argument is that our defense is bad because we can't protect the rim, but the Kings have a guy playing C that has anchored some horrific defensive teams and they're playing defense with him as the backbone. We have better perimeter defenders than them, yet our perimeter defense hasn't been good. They don't keep him in a deep drop and generally try to play him at the level, we don't do that with KAT, we use him like we would any other big center Tom would coach, even though his strengths are more in line with defending how the Kings are currently using Sabonis. You drop against bad shooters; you don't drop against the Celtics.

But you are still underestimating the other Kings players for their defensive effort and abilities. Scheme is one thing but when I see Mikal Bridges out on skates by multiple opposing players game in game out, that’s not a scheme issue anymore. Brunson can’t defend ball handlers so he’s always getting beat off the dribble, so that’s not a scheme issue either. It’s really been just OG and Josh Hart playing good defense night in night out. KAT has been good, bad and ugly on that end and on that I can certainly attribute some of it to scheme.

But overall the Kings are a lot better this year for several reasons, one is they pretty much have the same team and besides losing Barnes and getting Demar, the rest of the team is pretty much the same and they do have familiarity and know what the coach wants them to do at this point. Another thing is they do have guys who are growing and getting better, I mentioned Keegan Murray but he’s really taken a step up defensively this year. Fox is a better defender than any guard we have besides maybe Deuce who is our 6th man.

But I want to know what is wrong with Mikal and why he looks so bad defensively. I can understand adjusting to scheme and sometimes being out of position but I don’t understand the 1 on 1 defense and poor awareness and effort in those situations. He looks like he’s on skates sometimes and other times just looks like he doesn’t care. Something there is off and it doesn’t look scheme related. It’s like dude just forgot how to play defense or was never that good to begin with, I’m not sure

Mikal is a great team defender, he isn’t a great 1v1 defender, this is what majority of this board doesn’t understand. OG is the 1v1 defender who can also play great team defense. It is a scheme issue because Mikal excels in switching defense.

[HEZI]

Sabonis isn't a rim protector, the argument is that our defense is bad because we can't protect the rim, but the Kings have a guy playing C that has anchored some horrific defensive teams and they're playing defense with him as the backbone. We have better perimeter defenders than them, yet our perimeter defense hasn't been good. They don't keep him in a deep drop and generally try to play him at the level, we don't do that with KAT, we use him like we would any other big center Tom would coach, even though his strengths are more in line with defending how the Kings are currently using Sabonis. You drop against bad shooters; you don't drop against the Celtics.

But you are still underestimating the other Kings players for their defensive effort and abilities. Scheme is one thing but when I see Mikal Bridges out on skates by multiple opposing players game in game out, that’s not a scheme issue anymore. Brunson can’t defend ball handlers so he’s always getting beat off the dribble, so that’s not a scheme issue either. It’s really been just OG and Josh Hart playing good defense night in night out. KAT has been good, bad and ugly on that end and on that I can certainly attribute some of it to scheme.

But overall the Kings are a lot better this year for several reasons, one is they pretty much have the same team and besides losing Barnes and getting Demar, the rest of the team is pretty much the same and they do have familiarity and know what the coach wants them to do at this point. Another thing is they do have guys who are growing and getting better, I mentioned Keegan Murray but he’s really taken a step up defensively this year. Fox is a better defender than any guard we have besides maybe Deuce who is our 6th man.

But I want to know what is wrong with Mikal and why he looks so bad defensively. I can understand adjusting to scheme and sometimes being out of position but I don’t understand the 1 on 1 defense and poor awareness and effort in those situations. He looks like he’s on skates sometimes and other times just looks like he doesn’t care. Something there is off and it doesn’t look scheme related. It’s like dude just forgot how to play defense or was never that good to begin with, I’m not sure

Mikal is a great team defender, he isn’t a great 1v1 defender, this is what majority of this board doesn’t understand. OG is the 1v1 defender who can also play great team defense. It is a scheme issue because Mikal excels in switching defense.

Help me understand, so he’s good at switching to a defender just not good at guarding him once he switches. Is that what you are saying?

That does seem to be true, I mean last night Chicago just took turns picking on him. No matter who he switched to he got cooked

[JBreezeNY]

But you are still underestimating the other Kings players for their defensive effort and abilities. Scheme is one thing but when I see Mikal Bridges out on skates by multiple opposing players game in game out, that’s not a scheme issue anymore. Brunson can’t defend ball handlers so he’s always getting beat off the dribble, so that’s not a scheme issue either. It’s really been just OG and Josh Hart playing good defense night in night out. KAT has been good, bad and ugly on that end and on that I can certainly attribute some of it to scheme.

But overall the Kings are a lot better this year for several reasons, one is they pretty much have the same team and besides losing Barnes and getting Demar, the rest of the team is pretty much the same and they do have familiarity and know what the coach wants them to do at this point. Another thing is they do have guys who are growing and getting better, I mentioned Keegan Murray but he’s really taken a step up defensively this year. Fox is a better defender than any guard we have besides maybe Deuce who is our 6th man.

But I want to know what is wrong with Mikal and why he looks so bad defensively. I can understand adjusting to scheme and sometimes being out of position but I don’t understand the 1 on 1 defense and poor awareness and effort in those situations. He looks like he’s on skates sometimes and other times just looks like he doesn’t care. Something there is off and it doesn’t look scheme related. It’s like dude just forgot how to play defense or was never that good to begin with, I’m not sure

Mikal is a great team defender, he isn’t a great 1v1 defender, this is what majority of this board doesn’t understand. OG is the 1v1 defender who can also play great team defense. It is a scheme issue because Mikal excels in switching defense.

Help me understand, so he’s good at switching to a defender just not good at guarding him once he switches. Is that what you are saying?

No. He’s good at help defense hence why he excels in switching.

[NY2k1]

Sabonis isn't a rim protector, the argument is that our defense is bad because we can't protect the rim, but the Kings have a guy playing C that has anchored some horrific defensive teams and they're playing defense with him as the backbone. We have better perimeter defenders than them, yet our perimeter defense hasn't been good. They don't keep him in a deep drop and generally try to play him at the level, we don't do that with KAT, we use him like we would any other big center Tom would coach, even though his strengths are more in line with defending how the Kings are currently using Sabonis. You drop against bad shooters; you don't drop against the Celtics.

But you are still underestimating the other Kings players for their defensive effort and abilities. Scheme is one thing but when I see Mikal Bridges out on skates by multiple opposing players game in game out, that’s not a scheme issue anymore. Brunson can’t defend ball handlers so he’s always getting beat off the dribble, so that’s not a scheme issue either. It’s really been just OG and Josh Hart playing good defense night in night out. KAT has been good, bad and ugly on that end and on that I can certainly attribute some of it to scheme.

But overall the Kings are a lot better this year for several reasons, one is they pretty much have the same team and besides losing Barnes and getting Demar, the rest of the team is pretty much the same and they do have familiarity and know what the coach wants them to do at this point. Another thing is they do have guys who are growing and getting better, I mentioned Keegan Murray but he’s really taken a step up defensively this year. Fox is a better defender than any guard we have besides maybe Deuce who is our 6th man.

But I want to know what is wrong with Mikal and why he looks so bad defensively. I can understand adjusting to scheme and sometimes being out of position but I don’t understand the 1 on 1 defense and poor awareness and effort in those situations. He looks like he’s on skates sometimes and other times just looks like he doesn’t care. Something there is off and it doesn’t look scheme related. It’s like dude just forgot how to play defense or was never that good to begin with, I’m not sure

Mikal is a great team defender, he isn’t a great 1v1 defender, this is what majority of this board doesn’t understand. OG is the 1v1 defender who can also play great team defense. It is a scheme issue because Mikal excels in switching defense.

It's what I'm starting to see as well. I think Bridges will ultimately be fine and it's only 11 games into the season, but seeing him play - not sure it was worth what we gave up to get him.

[HEZI]

Mikal is a great team defender, he isn’t a great 1v1 defender, this is what majority of this board doesn’t understand. OG is the 1v1 defender who can also play great team defense. It is a scheme issue because Mikal excels in switching defense.

Help me understand, so he’s good at switching to a defender just not good at guarding him once he switches. Is that what you are saying?

No. He’s good at help defense hence why he excels in switching.

Ok so once he makes the switch he still gets cooked just like the Bulls were doing to him last night, that’s not scheme that’s him. Especially in this modern NBA where offensive skill level is through the rough, Mikal not being able to play 1 on 1 defense is kind of a big deal. I though he was actually a good individual defender but he’s been atrocious

[JBreezeNY]

But you are still underestimating the other Kings players for their defensive effort and abilities. Scheme is one thing but when I see Mikal Bridges out on skates by multiple opposing players game in game out, that’s not a scheme issue anymore. Brunson can’t defend ball handlers so he’s always getting beat off the dribble, so that’s not a scheme issue either. It’s really been just OG and Josh Hart playing good defense night in night out. KAT has been good, bad and ugly on that end and on that I can certainly attribute some of it to scheme.

But overall the Kings are a lot better this year for several reasons, one is they pretty much have the same team and besides losing Barnes and getting Demar, the rest of the team is pretty much the same and they do have familiarity and know what the coach wants them to do at this point. Another thing is they do have guys who are growing and getting better, I mentioned Keegan Murray but he’s really taken a step up defensively this year. Fox is a better defender than any guard we have besides maybe Deuce who is our 6th man.

But I want to know what is wrong with Mikal and why he looks so bad defensively. I can understand adjusting to scheme and sometimes being out of position but I don’t understand the 1 on 1 defense and poor awareness and effort in those situations. He looks like he’s on skates sometimes and other times just looks like he doesn’t care. Something there is off and it doesn’t look scheme related. It’s like dude just forgot how to play defense or was never that good to begin with, I’m not sure

Mikal is a great team defender, he isn’t a great 1v1 defender, this is what majority of this board doesn’t understand. OG is the 1v1 defender who can also play great team defense. It is a scheme issue because Mikal excels in switching defense.

It's what I'm starting to see as well. I think Bridges will ultimately be fine and it's only 11 games into the season, but seeing him play - not sure it was worth what we gave up to get him.

Yea the Knicks probably saw it as a 2 for 1 deal hence why it may be worth it in their minds, Brunson gets his buddy and a guy who can play great defense.

Problem is they didn’t underline what type of defense they need for Thibs system when getting Mikal. Also the fact Mikal isn’t just some guy you throw in the corner and say figure it out.

He does need the ball in his hands for pick and roll’s, he needs pick and rolls, he needs other players that are moving around as well.

All of these dynamics so far as missing in addition to lack of effort, and it’s causing his overall game to suffer. They gotta figure out how to utilize him or they got a sunken cost on their hands.

[Stannis]

We just need backup center. Ideally, that backup center will be Rudy Gobert

[NY2k1]

Mikal is a great team defender, he isn’t a great 1v1 defender, this is what majority of this board doesn’t understand. OG is the 1v1 defender who can also play great team defense. It is a scheme issue because Mikal excels in switching defense.

It's what I'm starting to see as well. I think Bridges will ultimately be fine and it's only 11 games into the season, but seeing him play - not sure it was worth what we gave up to get him.

Yea the Knicks probably saw it as a 2 for 1 deal hence why it may be worth it in their minds, Brunson gets his buddy and a guy who can play great defense.

Problem is they didn’t underline what type of defense they need for Thibs system when getting Mikal. Also the fact Mikal isn’t just some guy you throw in the corner and say figure it out.

He does need the ball in his hands for pick and roll’s, he needs pick and rolls, he needs other players that are moving around as well.

All of these dynamics so far as missing in addition to lack of effort, and it’s causing his overall game to suffer. They gotta figure out how to utilize him or they got a sunken cost on their hands.

Especially when someone like Giannis may eventually be available depending on whether the Bucks decide to blow it up, I was cautious but optimistic. Bridges would fit the Nova thing and have great reputational defense, but he is/was not a superstar player.

[JBreezeNY]

Help me understand, so he’s good at switching to a defender just not good at guarding him once he switches. Is that what you are saying?

No. He’s good at help defense hence why he excels in switching.

Ok so once he makes the switch he still gets cooked just like the Bulls were doing to him last night, that’s not scheme that’s him. Especially in this modern NBA where offensive skill level is through the rough, Mikal not being able to play 1 on 1 defense is kind of a big deal. I though he was actually a good individual defender but he’s been atrocious

This is very fair, he’s not good against big & fast wings which was apparent last season as well. He has been living off of the reputation he had in Phoenix and it’s caused him to just coast. He’s also poor getting over the screens and getting around them. How do you fix it, effort and communication, all I can think of. Possibly Precious coming back could help as well.