Josh Giddey - Conundrum Killer

[League Circles]

I think this is pretty straightforward as of now. Giddey is clearly not projecting as a guy you build a great team around. He's atrocious at half of the game and has a critical weakness on the other half (very slow jump shooting). His passing can be very fun to watch and is top tier, but can be risky and that's an overrated skill anyway.

Let him keep playing, try to trade him. If it's for something actually helpful, do it. Otherwise keep him and offer him the QO or bench player money. If we lose him for nothing no big deal.

Like some others, I liked the trade even though I didn't expect it to work the way we'd want. Was worth a shot.

[Ben Wilson25]

I will throw out option #4:

Play hard ball with him in FA, and make him go get an offer from the street. You can't preemptively offer top of the market. I suspect if Giddey has to go to the street his value is going to be nothing.

Why?

Because as you noted, his trade value sure feels like it is nothing. If no one is willing to give up say a top 5 protected pick that projects into the 12-18 range for Giddey, then who the heck is going to pay him a huge contract? The fact that we know he has no trade value also means he likely has no FA suitors.

I'm not saying we have to go with option #4 by throwing it out here, but I think if he hits FA you offer the QO and a 4 year deal at slightly above MLE money with a TO on the 4th year and see if he can do something better.

Let's say the quiet part out loud: We have no faith that AKME will actually do that. Because they traded for Giddey, they are just going to completely cave to the agent's demands so they don't appear that they lost the trade as OKC extends Caruso.

This. No matter what happens the rest of the way I think there’s a 99% chance they sign him to a big deal at the end of the year to save face and “preserve an asset.” Fait accompli.

[DASMACKDOWN]

Well here is what I would say. I think it's still too early.

Contrary to popular belief, Giddey has not be completely awful on defense every game. This is recency bias.

Bulls played Cleveland 2 games ago. No one said these things then when he had 18/7/8 against the Cavs.

But he has been particularly awful the last 2 games on defense. Against Knicks he wasnt good but its a difficult matchup. And the last game against the Cavs, it was a trainwreck. Both difficult matchups but he still could have done way better than he did.

Im just not ready to bail on someone 13 games in. Especially when defense isnt just individual, its a team.

I think back to Kyle Korver on the Bulls and how Thibs made us all think because Kyle was bad on defense, he couldn't start, or play many minutes.

Only for him to go to Atlanta, start every game, and play 33 minutes a game for one the Easts best teams.

I say give Giddey and BIlly more time to figure this out.

Maybe around trade deadline is the time to make the final decision. I definitely am in the camp of keeping him. The money is in question but not questioning keeping him.

We aren't in the position to be letting go young talent. Even if we trade him later, that is still a better option then him to walk.

[TheSuzerain]

Yeah he deserves a backup PG deal based on what we've seen.

Problem with Giddey is that the role he wants to fill is super valuable (akin to the QB on a basketball team). Which means you should be picky about who you place in that role on a large contract. Last thing you want to do is pay premium dollars for a 3rd or 4th tier player of that archetype.

[coldfish]

Yeah he deserves a backup PG deal based on what we've seen.

Problem with Giddey is that the role he wants to fill is super valuable (akin to the QB on a basketball team). Which means you should be picky about who you place in that role on a large contract. Last thing you want to do is pay premium dollars for a 3rd or 4th tier player of that archetype.

Yup. No one is going deep in the playoffs with Giddey as their starting PG. As others have noted, you have to build a team around his weaknesses and just . . . why would someone do that?

[Chi town]

Let's say the quiet part out loud: We have no faith that AKME will actually do that. Because they traded for Giddey, they are just going to completely cave to the agent's demands so they don't appear that they lost the trade as OKC extends Caruso.

I mean, yes, but that also ruins options #1-#3

I don't actually mind the traded for Giddey. While I thought it was a long shot it would work, and it doesn't appear it would. The alternative paths were keeping Caruso or trading for #13 and selecting someone like Devin Carter (whom is already as old as Giddey).

I'd have been okay with the 2nd of those things if part of a larger rebuilding effort we weren't going to do. If you wanted to win now, probably just keeping Caruso was your best bet, but also a road to nowhere.

I think in the end, people are overly negative around the trade as much for vastly overvaluing what Caruso could bring back in a trade as much as disliking Giddey.

FWIW, I actually like Giddey and am fine with the trade. I always saw him as a 3/4 though. If he bulks up and adds a shot, he could be an asset in that position. He just isn't an NBA pg. You need to be able to stay in front of your man and keep people honest around the arc to be considered a PG.

So in that scenario Ayo becomes our PG? Or we need to acquire a PG? Pat stays at PF?

What about Ayo Coby Pat Buz… is that enough defense for him?

If Giddey is not the PG and QB of the offense then he’s a good passing non shooting non defending wing?

[chitownsports4ever]

I think Giddey needs more than a dozen games or so to evaluate him but all the talk about what position he should guarding is useless when you have placed him on the floor with 2 other guards who do nothing but switch everything because they wont fight over the screen and rely on the PF to guard the best perimeter players in crunch time.

The Cavs came out and came right at him but then again the Cavs goal was to attack all 3 perimeter guys . Giddey was just 18,8, and 7 against the Cavs earlier in the week but lets not forget he was off to a great start in the 1st quarter as well . Hes the only perimeter player to come out locked in so far this year that I can recall.


So Im gonna cut Giddey some slack for a few more weeks as he has stepped into a situation where the coach prescribes to they are pros they can work through the issues themselves mantra.

[ChettheJet]

Don't know how you make any kind of evaluation after 10 games unless you have short attention span issues.

He was actually a starter in OKC for a time, I don't think he lost skills since then. he was injured with the team in flux right now there's no point o playing him or anybody else big minutes. Even with Craig, Duarte and Carter hardly playing, Buzelis getting limited minutes the Bulls still have Giddey, Zach, Coby, Ayo, Ball when he was and will be healthy, THT and even Terry to get minutes at the 1-3. Everybody knows that trades are either n the horizon or much hoped for so Zach, Vuc, Craig and Carter could be on the move. Then you'd have 3-6 new players coming in and the rotation hits the reset button at that point.

So saying Giddey or anybody else isn't a good fit, you're grading him as part of a team that will change by the deadline and certainly not finish the season.

[RSP83]

Giddey is obviously a flawed. But i think the main reason people are concern about him is because of how much do we need to spend to keep him. Giddey is asking for something close to 28 million per year, which is a lot of money for somebody who is a liability on the defensive end and not necessarily the greatest scorer as well.

It's a long season, we'll see how things develop with him. Nobody is untouchable on this team though.

[TheSuzerain]

There are basically no teams with cap space other than Brooklyn.

Was same situation Vuc's year.

We're basically bidding against no one.

[pipfan]

There are basically no teams with cap space other than Brooklyn.

Was same situation Vuc's year.

We're basically bidding against no one.

This is a good point. I would offer him 4 years/$60 million as of now, with a TO on the 4th year. Would he really turn down that much $ and bet on himself (assuming BRK doesn't make a big offer)?

He takes money that sets him up for life, and is STILL only 26 when he's done with that contract

[DuckIII]

Well here is what I would say. I think it's still too early.

Contrary to popular belief, Giddey has not be completely awful on defense every game. This is recency bias.

Bulls played Cleveland 2 games ago. No one said these things then when he had 18/7/8 against the Cavs.

I'll address this for myself since its my post, but I didn't say anything about Giddey after that good game or any other game because I was waiting to see more. I've thought he was putrid defensively in every game. I've never seen him stay in front of a man, he doesn't rotate well, he has no explosiveness, and he doesn't have good defensive court awareness. Its a package of zero defensive attributes. And most of them are simply genetic. Its possible with extreme dedication to perfecting the craft of defense he might be able to become just pretty bad. Its just something to accept and then move accordingly. Doesn't mean he's not a good player or a potentially very important piece to a future contending core. Better to deal with it than to cross fingers for something that won't ever happen.

It is too early, you're right about that. But "too early" is what its going to be all year because of his contract status and our roster construction.

I think back to Kyle Korver on the Bulls and how Thibs made us all think because Kyle was bad on defense, he couldn't start, or play many minutes.

Thibs didn't make us think that. We pretty much all criticized him heavily for how stupid it was and consequently made fun Bogans relentlessly.

The money is in question but not questioning keeping him.

You can't separate the two. I think only a few posters here actually think Giddey is "bad" and you always have some posters like that with every player, so they don't matter. Other than that, I think its a question of money with Giddey for all of us. Overspending on a player who is not a foundational franchise piece - which Giddey is not - is crippling and we can't do it while we try to rebuild.

Even if we trade him later, that is still a better option then him to walk.

Like Lavine and Vuc?

[Flopper]

This FO seems to have a massive blind spot in terms of overvaluing passing and playmaking and undervaluing defense, particularly with front court positions. Unless you're talking about GOAT level offensive production (Curry, Jokic, Doncic, etc), it's so hard to build a contending team if you have core rotation pieces that have significant defensive deficiencies .

Given the right supporting lineup and matchups, you can for sure hide Josh Giddey off the ball, but then you sort of fall into that trap of constructing a roster and rotation around a what is essentially a complimentary piece. So yeah he's for sure a role player at this point and is significantly less valuable than even someone like PWill given the plug and play nature of 3&D role players.

[burlydee]

This board is funny. People see the increased pace, passing, movement... and give zero credit to Giddey.

Meanwhile Zach, Coby and Vuc have spent years playing terrible D, but all the current defensive issues - Giddey.

I think Giddey needs to finish better. He's always going to be slow footed, but there are things he can do to be better dedensively. His attention to the little things has to improve. His rotations are slow and his close outs poor. But we've seen the shot improve. He's takes coaching. Coby-Ayo-Giddey are very much the same level of player. Giddey's versatility is also extremely useful. If the Bulls can stay in the 16-20 mil range I think it's a contract that will make sense.

[MrSparkle]

Resigning Giddey for $20M should be the goal, but I imagine he’ll want a new team at that point, so it may go QO or S&T.

I think Coby/Ayo/Giddey/Pat/Smith with Matas/Phillips/Duarte is a good 1-2y tank squad. Let Giddey get his numbers and not look so bad on D. But then we need to win the lottery twice.

If Giddey can pump his numbers after Zach/Vuc trades, I’d try to flip him. Right now his stats are on par with his worst/rookie season. Which seems a Bulls trend. Almost a Billy/AK design to get the cheapest extension done… but then remain bad.

I’m sorry, but it’s getting tiring hearing about our deeply flawed defenders needing to improve their defense. Coby’s defense improved, earned his rotation minutes, and he’s right back to looking like free ice cream. All that summer lateral training on the beach and buying in, and Zach’s D is still below average.

Buy an offensive player for their offense, maximize it (like we did with Demar), and surround him with defense. Done!

[DuckIII]

This board is funny. People see the increased pace, passing, movement... and give zero credit to Giddey.

Meanwhile Zach, Coby and Vuc have spent years playing terrible D, but all the current defensive issues - Giddey.

A fundamental premise of this thread is that its hard to evaluate Giddey specifically because he's surrounded by a roster almost entirely comprised of poor defenders, denying us the ability to evaluate how me might play with a team that does not collectively suck on D.

[TheSuzerain]

And furthermore, the goal is not to give Giddey a fair contract. The Bulls goal is to give him a contract where he's getting paid less than his play is worth.

[GoBlue72391]

We sold the farm for Vuc and re-signed him to a big contract he didn't deserve even though it was clear he was declining. We drafted Pat 4th overall and re-signed him to a big contract he didn't deserve even though he showed very little development over 4 years.

We traded an elite role player in Caruso for Giddey. I fully expect to us to re-sign Giddey to a big, long extension regardless of how good or bad he plays this season.

There's some things I like about him and some things I don't. Either way, I don't blame AKME for trading a plateaued role player who's better served playing for a contender for a young player with upside, even if it doesn't work out.

His defense is very concerning, but everything else seems workable.

[sco]

And furthermore, the goal is not to give Giddey a fair contract. The Bulls goal is to give him a contract where he's getting paid less than his play is worth.

Sure, but given history, we'd be thrilled just not to overpay him.

[dougthonus]

This board is funny. People see the increased pace, passing, movement... and give zero credit to Giddey.

Meanwhile Zach, Coby and Vuc have spent years playing terrible D, but all the current defensive issues - Giddey.

A fundamental premise of this thread is that its hard to evaluate Giddey specifically because he's surrounded by a roster almost entirely comprised of poor defenders, denying us the ability to evaluate how me might play with a team that does not collectively suck on D.

The Thunder were a team of great shooters and defenders, theoretically, the exact guys that would complement Giddey, and they didn't view him as a starting guy.