Jalen Suggs. New Elephant in a room.

[tooler]

We're on this ride for the next 6 years either way, so it's time to strap in and see what happens!

[VFX]

BTW... respect for pepe for taking one for the team.

However, I don't think the Universe has enough power to help Suggs seeing as someone made another " elephant " but this time with WCJ. MAgic curse is just that powerful that it only works with one player at a time. Trying to cure both WCJ and Suggs might just be beyond it.

Counterpoint: Black and Franz had threads at the same time

“Why not us?….Why not now?”

1 week later, Paolo goes down. The universe was feelin real petty right then, almost like wishing Tyus Jones scores 30 on us.

[VFX]

I get the point of the thread. I debated whether it was even worth contributing.

As others have said…

Shifting priorities after Paolo went down has taken Suggs out of his usual role from last season. He thrived in a role for 60 games last season primarily as a defender that was a third option shooting outlet. He was paired with Gary for the last 20 + playoffs. Regardless, the offense didn’t look great.

Then the offseason came and they doubled down on upgrading Gary Harris to KCP to play next to Suggs. Well, that takes a season of great progress and pushes it to the side again. Suggs is not a point guard, and he doesn’t necessarily fill in for one either, aside from the fact that he guards most opposing team’s best perimeter scorer.

Not sure why the front office was SO opposed to merely acquiring a point guard and letting Suggs do exactly what he did well last season in his role. Poorly ranked offense looked bad last season. It still looks inefficient with, and obviously worse, without Paolo this season.

Suggs has been tasked with mitigating their failure to solve roster issues, now without Paolo, at the expense of what he does well. So yeah, he’s been more inefficient stepping into a different role while still attempting to maintain his level of play defensively.

If anything, KCP is the guy that has been massively exposed here since Paolo went down. At no point has he stepped up and proven he’s capable of being THAT guy media and fans were fawning over as a great acquisition this offseason for Orlando. His scoring production has dropped to the lowest levels since… get this… his rookie season in 2013-14. So glad we paid him. Bravo.

[SOUL]

FWIW, I don't think Suggs is struggling as a "PG" - he's essentially been relieved of a lot of those duties with Franz taking that role now. And that was WITH Paolo healthy that Suggs had more usage rate as PG during the first few games. Since the injury, he's essentially a SG guarding PGs, which isn't weird for him at all.

What he is struggling with is just his shot and usage rate in terms of maybe overthinking what we need on offense. But he'll be okay.

[VFX]

FWIW, I don't think Suggs is struggling as a "PG" - he's essentially been relieved of a lot of those duties with Franz taking that role now. And that was WITH Paolo healthy that Suggs had more usage rate as PG during the first few games. Since the injury, he's essentially a SG guarding PGs, which isn't weird for him at all.

What he is struggling with is just his shot and usage rate in terms of maybe overthinking what we need on offense. But he'll be okay.

Who needs positional labels when nothing matters and Orlando is well past “traditional skillsets”?

It’s 2024. Your bigs can be racking up assist numbers now while they run the offense. Unless of course they’ve never shown the ability to actually do that.

[SOUL]

FWIW, I don't think Suggs is struggling as a "PG" - he's essentially been relieved of a lot of those duties with Franz taking that role now. And that was WITH Paolo healthy that Suggs had more usage rate as PG during the first few games. Since the injury, he's essentially a SG guarding PGs, which isn't weird for him at all.

What he is struggling with is just his shot and usage rate in terms of maybe overthinking what we need on offense. But he'll be okay.

Who needs positional labels when nothing matters and Orlando is well past “traditional skillsets”?

It’s 2024. Your bigs can be racking up assist numbers now while they run the offense. Unless of course they’ve never shown the ability to actually do that.

I mean, Paolo and Franz can though. I also think Suggs is used to this role (obviously when Paolo is healthy though), as he played way more with Gary Harris last year than he did with Fultz - and played well.

[VFX]

FWIW, I don't think Suggs is struggling as a "PG" - he's essentially been relieved of a lot of those duties with Franz taking that role now. And that was WITH Paolo healthy that Suggs had more usage rate as PG during the first few games. Since the injury, he's essentially a SG guarding PGs, which isn't weird for him at all.

What he is struggling with is just his shot and usage rate in terms of maybe overthinking what we need on offense. But he'll be okay.

Who needs positional labels when nothing matters and Orlando is well past “traditional skillsets”?

It’s 2024. Your bigs can be racking up assist numbers now while they run the offense. Unless of course they’ve never shown the ability to actually do that.

I mean, Paolo and Franz can though. I also think Suggs is used to this role (obviously when Paolo is healthy though), as he played way more with Gary Harris last year than he did with Fultz - and played well.

Can they?

[fendilim]

I get the point of the thread. I debated whether it was even worth contributing.

As others have said…

Shifting priorities after Paolo went down has taken Suggs out of his usual role from last season. He thrived in a role for 60 games last season primarily as a defender that was a third option shooting outlet. He was paired with Gary for the last 20 + playoffs. Regardless, the offense didn’t look great.

Then the offseason came and they doubled down on upgrading Gary Harris to KCP to play next to Suggs. Well, that takes a season of great progress and pushes it to the side again. Suggs is not a point guard, and he doesn’t necessarily fill in for one either, aside from the fact that he guards most opposing team’s best perimeter scorer.

Not sure why the front office was SO opposed to merely acquiring a point guard and letting Suggs do exactly what he did well last season in his role. Poorly ranked offense looked bad last season. It still looks inefficient with, and obviously worse, without Paolo this season.

Suggs has been tasked with mitigating their failure to solve roster issues, now without Paolo, at the expense of what he does well. So yeah, he’s been more inefficient stepping into a different role while still attempting to maintain his level of play defensively.

If anything, KCP is the guy that has been massively exposed here since Paolo went down. At no point has he stepped up and proven he’s capable of being THAT guy media and fans were fawning over as a great acquisition this offseason for Orlando. His scoring production has dropped to the lowest levels since… get this… his rookie season in 2013-14. So glad we paid him. Bravo.

Because it would force Suggs to move to the two position. Suggs is better against smaller opposition defending him.

Which makes Black the better long term fit for Suggs than KCP. Because opponents will be forced to play their sg against Black because of the height difference.

And yes, his shot creation is exposed once again, because we don’t have Paolo running the show. This was already evident during his rookie year that he can’t create shots consistently. Suggs should go back to settling down the offense, he was doing alright to start the season. But now is a loose cannon once again.

[I Rasharted]

True fact: I have a notepad next to my couch entitled "Suggs Moronography." I fill in a line every time Suggs does something incredibly dumb and/or stupid. I am definitely gonna run out of space and need another notepad.

Jalen "My Brain Rasharted" Suggs.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

[pepe1991]

True fact: I have a notepad next to my couch entitled "Suggs Moronography." I fill in a line every time Suggs does something incredibly dumb and/or stupid. I am definitely gonna run out of space and need another notepad.

Jalen "My Brain Rasharted" Suggs.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

During one soccer podcast one of guys who works for one A division team came up with excellent idea.
Once a game coach will have ability to stop a game, hand mic to player to explain his action in last play

Segment would be called " explain yourself "

Might as well give most explanation yourself player annual Russell Westbrook award of a year

[Medford]

He has potential on drives but yeah, he has to see the game at a different level than he's shown. He'll have defenders in jail and/or easy passes and turn it over still because he's not processing it fast enough. I think his shot is his biggest plus, it's just a bit off this year compared to last year but I have faith.

Exactly my thoughts.
With Paolo down it seemed like the coaches tested how much he can step up in shot creating and shot making. It didn't work and back to his toned down role on offense the only thing left to watch carefully is his three point percentage as his point of attack defense is still elite.
His form still looks fine, the majority of shots are good looks and he's not airballing in bunches (like others did). I'm optimistic we'll soon see that Jalen from last season...

...which brings me down to the only thing I'm a bit worried about (well, to make the anti-jinx work):
His progression.
Until now, after every season break he come up with a big development step.
With the start of his second year he had already cleaned up his defense. You may remember, in his rookie year you can already sense his prowess, but it was really rough.
Last year he suddenly came up with his revised three point shooting. Improving by 7% with high usage is huge.
This year I can hardly find anything he got better at. Makes me wonder: Where is his ceiling?

[eyriq]

He has potential on drives but yeah, he has to see the game at a different level than he's shown. He'll have defenders in jail and/or easy passes and turn it over still because he's not processing it fast enough. I think his shot is his biggest plus, it's just a bit off this year compared to last year but I have faith.

Exactly my thoughts.
With Paolo down it seemed like the coaches tested how much he can step up in shot creating and shot making. It didn't work and back to his toned down role on offense the only thing left to watch carefully is his three point percentage as his point of attack defense is still elite.
His form still looks fine, the majority of shots are good looks and he's not airballing in bunches (like others did). I'm optimistic we'll soon see that Jalen from last season...

...which brings me down to the only thing I'm a bit worried about (well, to make the anti-jinx work):
His progression.
Until now, after every season break he come up with a big development step.
With the start of his second year he had already cleaned up his defense. You may remember, in his rookie year you can already sense his prowess, but it was really rough.
Last year he suddenly came up with his revised three point shooting. Improving by 7% with high usage is huge.
This year I can hardly find anything he got better at. Makes me wonder: Where is his ceiling?

I think his layup package is greatly improved, and his handle is tighter. That should translate into less turnovers and more buckets around the rim.

[VFX]

I get the point of the thread. I debated whether it was even worth contributing.

As others have said…

Shifting priorities after Paolo went down has taken Suggs out of his usual role from last season. He thrived in a role for 60 games last season primarily as a defender that was a third option shooting outlet. He was paired with Gary for the last 20 + playoffs. Regardless, the offense didn’t look great.

Then the offseason came and they doubled down on upgrading Gary Harris to KCP to play next to Suggs. Well, that takes a season of great progress and pushes it to the side again. Suggs is not a point guard, and he doesn’t necessarily fill in for one either, aside from the fact that he guards most opposing team’s best perimeter scorer.

Not sure why the front office was SO opposed to merely acquiring a point guard and letting Suggs do exactly what he did well last season in his role. Poorly ranked offense looked bad last season. It still looks inefficient with, and obviously worse, without Paolo this season.

Suggs has been tasked with mitigating their failure to solve roster issues, now without Paolo, at the expense of what he does well. So yeah, he’s been more inefficient stepping into a different role while still attempting to maintain his level of play defensively.

If anything, KCP is the guy that has been massively exposed here since Paolo went down. At no point has he stepped up and proven he’s capable of being THAT guy media and fans were fawning over as a great acquisition this offseason for Orlando. His scoring production has dropped to the lowest levels since… get this… his rookie season in 2013-14. So glad we paid him. Bravo.

Because it would force Suggs to move to the two position. Suggs is better against smaller opposition defending him.

Which makes Black the better long term fit for Suggs than KCP. Because opponents will be forced to play their sg against Black because of the height difference.

And yes, his shot creation is exposed once again, because we don’t have Paolo running the show. This was already evident during his rookie year that he can’t create shots consistently. Suggs should go back to settling down the offense, he was doing alright to start the season. But now is a loose cannon once again.

Yea, Black is the better long term fit in terms of idealized skillset to pair next to Suggs. However, that isn’t what the Front Office signaled upon signing KCP and continuing to keep AB in the second unit.

The argument isn’t about whether or not Paolo “running the show” is entirely what helps Suggs get his shots. He has less pressure against defenses being option #3/4 instead of option #2.

Dirk Nowitzki and Carmelo Anthony are elite generational individual scorers. That doesn’t mean they are “running the offense”. Dallas still needed Jason Kidd to average 8+ assists per game in their title season. People don’t seem to draw that correlation when they are buying into this point forward system Weltman has sold them.

[JoshuaPotter]

TLDR I really have no concern with Suggs. I can get a little analytical, but this stretch shouldn't be a surprise for anyone here.

Suggs is at best for his career a no 3 scorer and a potential DPOTY candidate. Currently he is being tasked with being no2 and DPOTY candidate and I think that is part of the slump. He might be able to be the no2 guy for short bursts of a season at his prime. But to expect it while he is still on a rookie contract is meh, don't think it'll happen.

Now we can debate I guess what the org should have done. I'll even @vfx as we usually agree. Why does our team miss valuable opportunities to acquire a position of need? I'll even @skybox because ya'know, an additional playmaker even if it costs us defense wouldn't be the worst thing right now.

But alas, I do not think that is the vision. I am just saying that, even if I don't agree with it. The best case scenario for all of us, is Black is starting to show flashes of a real PG whom if he keeps this level of playmaking up SHOULD be starting sooner then later. But we would then agree that we need something that he brings from the bench. Back to square one as it were.

[Medford]

I think his layup package is greatly improved, and his handle is tighter. That should translate into less turnovers and more buckets around the rim.

Dunno, hope you are right... and it translates soonish.
Right now he looks the same as last year to me, just in a bit of a shooting slump.

[GelbeWand09]

TLDR I really have no concern with Suggs. I can get a little analytical, but this stretch shouldn't be a surprise for anyone here.

Suggs is at best for his career a no 3 scorer and a potential DPOTY candidate. Currently he is being tasked with being no2 and DPOTY candidate and I think that is part of the slump. He might be able to be the no2 guy for short bursts of a season at his prime. But to expect it while he is still on a rookie contract is meh, don't think it'll happen.

Now we can debate I guess what the org should have done. I'll even @vfx as we usually agree. Why does our team miss valuable opportunities to acquire a position of need? I'll even @skybox because ya'know, an additional playmaker even if it costs us defense wouldn't be the worst thing right now.

But alas, I do not think that is the vision. I am just saying that, even if I don't agree with it. The best case scenario for all of us, is Black is starting to show flashes of a real PG whom if he keeps this level of playmaking up SHOULD be starting sooner then later. But we would then agree that we need something that he brings from the bench. Back to square one as it were.

For me he is much more a 4th option. The 3rd option should be another player (hopefully a guard) who can create shots for himself & others off the bench or next to Suggs. Jalen should be the spot up shooter, who scores in transition and really open lanes. I don't want him dribble at all vs. halfcourt defenses. For a 3rd option he is just too unreliable & uneffective on offense.

[JoshuaPotter]

TLDR I really have no concern with Suggs. I can get a little analytical, but this stretch shouldn't be a surprise for anyone here.

Suggs is at best for his career a no 3 scorer and a potential DPOTY candidate. Currently he is being tasked with being no2 and DPOTY candidate and I think that is part of the slump. He might be able to be the no2 guy for short bursts of a season at his prime. But to expect it while he is still on a rookie contract is meh, don't think it'll happen.

Now we can debate I guess what the org should have done. I'll even @vfx as we usually agree. Why does our team miss valuable opportunities to acquire a position of need? I'll even @skybox because ya'know, an additional playmaker even if it costs us defense wouldn't be the worst thing right now.

But alas, I do not think that is the vision. I am just saying that, even if I don't agree with it. The best case scenario for all of us, is Black is starting to show flashes of a real PG whom if he keeps this level of playmaking up SHOULD be starting sooner then later. But we would then agree that we need something that he brings from the bench. Back to square one as it were.

For me he is much more a 4th option. The 3rd option should be another player (hopefully a guard) who can create shots for himself & others off the bench or next to Suggs. Jalen should be the spot up shooter, who scores in transition and really open lanes. I don't want him dribble at all vs. halfcourt defenses. For a 3rd option he is just too unreliable & uneffective on offense.

I don't think we are done seeing Jalen Suggs development yet. So I will call him a 3rd option for now. But this can clearly change. When Paolo comes back the 3rd option will seemingly be "up for grabs". I don't know if itll be Black, I don't know if it'll be Suggs. But on paper right now anyway since Paolo is out its been Franz + Suggs + Black doing majority of shot creation.

I will say, the amount of pick and rollesque and screens I have seen the past couple highlights has been amazing. It's almost like we are starting to have an actual offensive scheme out there. Eyriq accidentally called it out by saying "we are playing slower".

[Message Boar]

These damn elephants, man

[Knightro]

I get the point of the thread. I debated whether it was even worth contributing.

As others have said…

Shifting priorities after Paolo went down has taken Suggs out of his usual role from last season. He thrived in a role for 60 games last season primarily as a defender that was a third option shooting outlet. He was paired with Gary for the last 20 + playoffs. Regardless, the offense didn’t look great.

Then the offseason came and they doubled down on upgrading Gary Harris to KCP to play next to Suggs. Well, that takes a season of great progress and pushes it to the side again. Suggs is not a point guard, and he doesn’t necessarily fill in for one either, aside from the fact that he guards most opposing team’s best perimeter scorer.

Not sure why the front office was SO opposed to merely acquiring a point guard and letting Suggs do exactly what he did well last season in his role. Poorly ranked offense looked bad last season. It still looks inefficient with, and obviously worse, without Paolo this season.

Suggs has been tasked with mitigating their failure to solve roster issues, now without Paolo, at the expense of what he does well. So yeah, he’s been more inefficient stepping into a different role while still attempting to maintain his level of play defensively.

If anything, KCP is the guy that has been massively exposed here since Paolo went down. At no point has he stepped up and proven he’s capable of being THAT guy media and fans were fawning over as a great acquisition this offseason for Orlando. His scoring production has dropped to the lowest levels since… get this… his rookie season in 2013-14. So glad we paid him. Bravo.

You're also coming from a place of belief that the offense with Paolo healthy, Franz locked into a No. 2 role, Suggs locked into a No. 3 role and Black showing real development offensively still won't be a good offense.

And you seem to only feel this way because the offense wasn't good with those guys last year?

But all four of those guys are still getting better, right?

I want to see how the offense grades out statistically with Paolo/Franz/Suggs/Black all healthy and in their ideal roles. Give me like 10-15 games with those four guys healthy and let's see where things end up.

The OTRG was 7th over the first 4 games.

The ORTG is 11th over the last 7 games.

I'm not really convinced the offense is actually bad when everyone is healthy and in their ideal roles.

Things for the season have basically been torpedoed from a season-long perspective because the first three games WITHOUT Paolo were at Cleveland, at Dallas, at OKC.

[Knightro]

"Team looks worse offensively without best offensive player who also happens to be a debatably top 15 overall player in the league" is not really a great talking point.

Neither is "guys who are suited to be #3/#4 options are struggled to scale up"

Denver has looked absolutely awful offensively the last three games without Jokic. Paolo isn't Jokic of course, but he's still the Magic's highest usage player and the guy who most things revolve around.