Coby and Zach are Elite at the Most Important Skill

[Chi town]

Coby and Zach are elite 3pt shooter in volume and percentage. Only the Splash Buddies (Curry Hield) and Celts (Tatum White Pritchard) are better.

Creating and making 3 is the most important offensive skill in the league. Creating spacing and gravity makes offense easier for the rest of the team. Catch and Shoot guys are being left in the dust in terms of attempts by 3pt creators off the bounce and PnR.

This is essential to have at least TWO of these players on your team and 3 is a luxury and big advantage. Keep in mind while building for the future.

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/stat/3-points/table/offensive/sort/avgThreePointFieldGoalsAttempted/dir/desc

[sco]

Coby and Zach are elite 3pt shooter in volume and percentage. Only the Splash Buddies (Curry Hield) and Celts (Tatum White Pritchard) are better.

Creating and making 3 is the most important offensive skill in the league. Creating spacing and gravity makes offense easier for the rest of the team. Catch and Shoot guys are being left in the dust in terms of attempts by 3pt creators off the bounce and PnR.

This is essential to have at least TWO of these players on your team and 3 is a luxury and big advantage. Keep in mind while building for the future.

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/stat/3-points/table/offensive/sort/avgThreePointFieldGoalsAttempted/dir/desc

Sure. But Zach isn't a long-term piece here (although I am convinced he'll be here for the season) and Coby is a bad pairing with Giddey.

[League Circles]

I think scoring inside is still more valuable for an individual player or team than 3 point shooting. A great 3 point shooter is getting about 60% TS on hose attempts, which is only slightly above league average. A guy who can get to the rim easily and convert is a bit more efficient and collapses the defense to open up the 3.

[dougthonus]

Ultimately, the most important skill is creating gravity. You can do that in a variety of ways. Pat Williams has a good three point percentage, but he creates 0 gravity. You can generally stick a poor defender on Pat and not lose anything on Pat, but he also doesn't create negative gravity, because he will hurt you if you leave him open. Giddey is a guy who creates negative gravity. Teams are content to leave him all alone and not worry about him all if he doesn't have the ball.

LaVine and Coby are our two best gravity creators, but they're probably both no better than average for someone in that role. For one way players, Coby is probably considerably better at creating gravity than his salary, Zach is probably worse than his salary.

[Chi town]

Ultimately, the most important skill is creating gravity. You can do that in a variety of ways. Pat Williams has a good three point percentage, but he creates 0 gravity. You can generally stick a poor defender on Pat and not lose anything on Pat, but he also doesn't create negative gravity, because he will hurt you if you leave him open. Giddey is a guy who creates negative gravity. Teams are content to leave him all alone and not worry about him all if he doesn't have the ball.

LaVine and Coby are our two best gravity creators, but they're probably both no better than average for someone in that role. For one way players, Coby is probably considerably better at creating gravity than his salary, Zach is probably worse than his salary.

Yep.

This is why Knecht is putting up some crazy numbers for the Lakers. AD as a rim lob threat, Lebron, and Reaves shooting and attacking close outs all have strong gravity.

Knecht is elite at cutting for dunks and moving to space for open 3s. He does nothing off the dribble. He actually plays a ton like elite Klay except he doesn’t really shoot off movement yet on tape. He also has a coach in JJ who was an elite shooter that runs a couple called screens for him every game that is getting him wide open.

Point is creating 3s off the bounce is necessary to have an elite offense. Ideally you have two 3pt shooters that can create 3s off the dribble and one that is elite at Catch & Shoot like Knecht.

The Lakers just drafted a top 4 player for them at 17. Reaves was a late pick.

[Chi town]

Think Buz can actually be a 10s per game guy and create off the dribble with side steps and step backs. His big advantage is he can shoot over people and he’s already shown to let it fly and make it even when contested. He doesn’t hesitate or pass them up.

[kodo]

"Creation" is the word that does the most heavy lifting here, because there are many very accurate 3P shooters like our own Patrick. But Pat's star ceiling seems low because he's really only good on the C&S and tends to fall apart creating off the dribble. That's really what makes Steph the greatest shooter of all time, he's shooting off the dribble. Because other players have had better 3P%.

The subjective "star power" of the shooters tends to correlate with how unassisted they are. All the guys below are top 20 in 3PM and on excellent %s, 40% (except for Tatum). And while Mitchell & Hield produce the exact same 3PM per game, Hield is 91% assisted vs Mitchell's 53%. Mitchell is considered the far more valuable. There's a lot more overall game that goes into that obviously, but just to point out that the creation part of 3P shooting is what separates the high value players.

Assist rate on 3 pointers:
Edwards: 51% assisted
Herro: 72% assisted
Tatum: 49% assisted
Curry: 61% assisted
Mitchell: 53% assisted
Hield: 91% assisted
Beasley: 91% assisted

Chicago's Lavine & Coby are both also top 20, but Lavine's ability to create his 3P shots is basically star level. It's a bit of a crime he's being reduced in the offense, he's taking only 7 3PA per game, because every other coach has a guy like Lavine taking 9-12 per game.

White: 83% assisted
Lavine: 59% assisted

[MrSparkle]

I like Zach’s reduced usage, but agreed he should be getting 5 more looks a game. Find a balance there. But oh well. Until a move is made, I’m not sure what the end goal is here. Make us feel bad when we trade him for our meek return, playing his best basketball?

[NZB2323]

I like Zach but what are we building with an injury prone player who doesn’t play defense and gets injured? A first round exit, if not a play-in team.

Zach is 29 now. We saw him in the playoffs when he was 26. Are we expecting him to be better in the playoffs when he’s in his 30s?

[Infinity2152]

Should Zach be considered injury prone in the modern NBA? In 10 seasons, he's played 82, 77, 77, 67, 63, 60, 58, 47, 25, 24. He's basically played at least half the season 8 out of 10 years, averaging around 60-65 most years. He's an explosive, elite athlete that plays above the rim, with regular high usage and high minutes. I don't know the numbers, does he miss more games than the average high usage star, especially uber athletic ones? I'd view his play style, level, usage over his career comparable to guys like Paul George, Middleton, Beal, Leonard, McGrady, Wade, Grant Hill. Seems like over a 10 year period, he's really not more injury prone than other high usage athletic guards/wings.

[Stratmaster]

Ultimately, the most important skill is creating gravity. You can do that in a variety of ways. Pat Williams has a good three point percentage, but he creates 0 gravity. You can generally stick a poor defender on Pat and not lose anything on Pat, but he also doesn't create negative gravity, because he will hurt you if you leave him open. Giddey is a guy who creates negative gravity. Teams are content to leave him all alone and not worry about him all if he doesn't have the ball.

LaVine and Coby are our two best gravity creators, but they're probably both no better than average for someone in that role. For one way players, Coby is probably considerably better at creating gravity than his salary, Zach is probably worse than his salary.

Help me understand how you would consider Lavine average in creating gravity for his role? Maybe we need to define gravity to be sure I am not talking past you.

Zach was getting double teamed consistently while playing beside Demar and Vuc, and triple teamed at times when DDR was resting.

[Stratmaster]

I like Zach but what are we building with an injury prone player who doesn’t play defense and gets injured? A first round exit, if not a play-in team.

Zach is 29 now. We saw him in the playoffs when he was 26. Are we expecting him to be better in the playoffs when he’s in his 30s?

Zach does play defense. Every high usage player gets injured, with a couple of rare exceptions who are considered iron man unicorns. Yes, I expect him to play better in the playoffs the more playoff experience he gets, like most players.

[dougthonus]

Help me understand how you would consider Lavine average in creating gravity for his role? Maybe we need to define gravity to be sure I am not talking past you.

Zach was getting double teamed consistently while playing beside Demar and Vuc, and triple teamed at times when DDR was resting.

I guess a gravity creator role is primary offensive option. If you view there to be 30 primary offensive options in the NBA, then I don't know that Zach is above average in that class (Coby certainly isn't). I said Zach was probably below average relative to his salary. He's tied for being the 17th highest paid player in the NBA.

Probably a bit of semantics involved for sure in creating gravity vs utilizing gravity (ie, I was double teamed, was I able to make a positive outcome from that consistently vs I'm good enough teams double team me but when they do, I can't consistently make the pass or play to create the consistently good outcome).

[FriedRise]

Just wanna give Coby his credit because dude has been balling out offensively. His numbers are up across the board, and this is with a few stinkers already in the books.

19.9p/4.7a/3.3r
54/40/89 shooting splits
9 3PA
3.6 FTA
.625 TS%
15.8 PER
.579 EFG%

[Stratmaster]

Help me understand how you would consider Lavine average in creating gravity for his role? Maybe we need to define gravity to be sure I am not talking past you.

Zach was getting double teamed consistently while playing beside Demar and Vuc, and triple teamed at times when DDR was resting.

I guess a gravity creator role is primary offensive option. If you view there to be 30 primary offensive options in the NBA, then I don't know that Zach is above average in that class (Coby certainly isn't). I said Zach was probably below average relative to his salary. He's tied for being the 17th highest paid player in the NBA.

Probably a bit of semantics involved for sure in creating gravity vs utilizing gravity (ie, I was double teamed, was I able to make a positive outcome from that consistently vs I'm good enough teams double team me but when they do, I can't consistently make the pass or play to create the consistently good outcome).

Respectfully, I don't think you are using the team properly. Gravity is a force that attracts. It began to be used in basketball to describe a player who can attract defenders forcing the defense to move and shift. I have never heard it qualified as applying to primary scorers. (For example, if Josh were as good as advertised at drawing defenders by driving he would be creating gravity, whether he takes a shot or not)

I would agree that Coby is average. I would probably rate him below average due to the nature of his attempts; but I probably underrate Coby in most things any more, just as a human reaction to all the overrating that started last season.

I don't care what option he is, a player who attracts double and triple teams is top tier in creating gravity; especially when he is able to attract that attention with another (or 2) volume scorer on the court.

But it is a lot of semantics. It seems to immediately be the new buzzword for a simple concept we have talked about for decades; attracting defensive attention. Billy said it. So Kendall said it. So now we all say it

[dougthonus]

Respectfully, I don't think you are using the team properly. Gravity is a force that attracts. It began to be used in basketball to describe a player who can attract defenders forcing the defense to move and shift. I have never heard it qualified as applying to primary scorers. (For example, if Josh were as good as advertised at drawing defenders by driving he would be creating gravity, whether he takes a shot or not)

I agree with your view of gravity there in terms of attracting defenders. I would say almost exclusively primary scorers generate gravity. If you are not a threat to score without a double team, a double team is not coming.

I don't care what option he is, a player who attracts double and triple teams is top tier in creating gravity; especially when he is able to attract that attention with another (or 2) volume scorer on the court.

Agreed, but how many non number one options are consistently generating double let alone triple teams? To the extent that happens its because a team has multiple guys that _could_ be a #1 option in a different circumstance.

But it is a lot of semantics. It seems to immediately be the new buzzword for a simple concept we have talked about for decades; attracting defensive attention. Billy said it. So Kendall said it. So now we all say it

Agreed, this isn't new. We used to just describe it as drawing double teams and guys who space the floor, but the word gravity is more simple and elegant. In some ways, breaking those out into two categories is better because they are different types of gravity, but the concept of increasing gravity of your offensive players likely leads to much better offense is probably true and thinking about that holistically probably makes sense in some ways.

[jnrjr79]

Respectfully, I don't think you are using the team properly. Gravity is a force that attracts. It began to be used in basketball to describe a player who can attract defenders forcing the defense to move and shift. I have never heard it qualified as applying to primary scorers. (For example, if Josh were as good as advertised at drawing defenders by driving he would be creating gravity, whether he takes a shot or not)

I agree with your view of gravity there in terms of attracting defenders. I would say almost exclusively primary scorers generate gravity. If you are not a threat to score without a double team, a double team is not coming.

I don't care what option he is, a player who attracts double and triple teams is top tier in creating gravity; especially when he is able to attract that attention with another (or 2) volume scorer on the court.

Agreed, but how many non number one options are consistently generating double let alone triple teams? To the extent that happens its because a team has multiple guys that _could_ be a #1 option in a different circumstance.

But it is a lot of semantics. It seems to immediately be the new buzzword for a simple concept we have talked about for decades; attracting defensive attention. Billy said it. So Kendall said it. So now we all say it

Agreed, this isn't new. We used to just describe it as drawing double teams and guys who space the floor, but the word gravity is more simple and elegant. In some ways, breaking those out into two categories is better because they are different types of gravity, but the concept of increasing gravity of your offensive players likely leads to much better offense is probably true and thinking about that holistically probably makes sense in some ways.

Doesn't "gravity" also include the notion of how far you can pull defenders out on the perimeter to cover you? I feel like, e.g., Ray Allen on the Celtics of Heat had "gravity" even if he wasn't the #1 guy. Kyle Korver probably also would be described with that term.

[dougthonus]

Doesn't "gravity" also include the notion of how far you can pull defenders out on the perimeter to cover you? I feel like, e.g., Ray Allen on the Celtics of Heat had "gravity" even if he wasn't the #1 guy. Kyle Korver probably also would be described with that term.

Yeah, that's why I said it is the combination of guys who draw double teams and guys who space the floor. We used to call Kyle Korver a floor spacer. Gravity kind of wraps these concepts into one (and probably other concepts as well, like guys who can make the defense move off the ball via cuts and activity).

[NZB2323]

I like Zach but what are we building with an injury prone player who doesn’t play defense and gets injured? A first round exit, if not a play-in team.

Zach is 29 now. We saw him in the playoffs when he was 26. Are we expecting him to be better in the playoffs when he’s in his 30s?

Zach does play defense. Every high usage player gets injured, with a couple of rare exceptions who are considered iron man unicorns. Yes, I expect him to play better in the playoffs the more playoff experience he gets, like most players.

Most high usage players have more than 4 seasons where they played 65 games. Most high usage players have played in more than 4 playoff games. Most high usage players play worse in the playoffs in their 30s.

[Chi town]

Respectfully, I don't think you are using the team properly. Gravity is a force that attracts. It began to be used in basketball to describe a player who can attract defenders forcing the defense to move and shift. I have never heard it qualified as applying to primary scorers. (For example, if Josh were as good as advertised at drawing defenders by driving he would be creating gravity, whether he takes a shot or not)

I agree with your view of gravity there in terms of attracting defenders. I would say almost exclusively primary scorers generate gravity. If you are not a threat to score without a double team, a double team is not coming.

I don't care what option he is, a player who attracts double and triple teams is top tier in creating gravity; especially when he is able to attract that attention with another (or 2) volume scorer on the court.

Agreed, but how many non number one options are consistently generating double let alone triple teams? To the extent that happens its because a team has multiple guys that _could_ be a #1 option in a different circumstance.

But it is a lot of semantics. It seems to immediately be the new buzzword for a simple concept we have talked about for decades; attracting defensive attention. Billy said it. So Kendall said it. So now we all say it

Agreed, this isn't new. We used to just describe it as drawing double teams and guys who space the floor, but the word gravity is more simple and elegant. In some ways, breaking those out into two categories is better because they are different types of gravity, but the concept of increasing gravity of your offensive players likely leads to much better offense is probably true and thinking about that holistically probably makes sense in some ways.

Doesn't "gravity" also include the notion of how far you can pull defenders out on the perimeter to cover you? I feel like, e.g., Ray Allen on the Celtics of Heat had "gravity" even if he wasn't the #1 guy. Kyle Korver probably also would be described with that term.

That’s exactly what it is. Luka and Coby both have crazy range and hence more gravity.