2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread

[brackdan70]

LaMelo should finish in the top 5 if the Hornets can make a win now trade. Having a one of kind season so far.

Let’s get a hold of reality here. Ball is putting up some numbers and having a nice start but turnovers and defense as well as overall positive impact keep him a rung or two below legitimate top MVP candidates.

[Infinite Llamas]

LaMelo should finish in the top 5 if the Hornets can make a win now trade. Having a one of kind season so far.

Let’s get a hold of reality here. Ball is putting up some numbers and having a nice start but turnovers and defense as well as overall positive impact keep him a rung or two below legitimate top MVP candidates.

Pedestrian shooting splits. Bloated, unsightly usage %. 20.7 PER. Has the most fouls in the league as a point guard. One of a kind for sure lol

[Larry_Russell]

I am betting against a jokic mvp for the same reason Nash didnt win 3.

Voters didnt want nash having 3 like bird and magic

And you can bet on the league voters not wanting jokic having as many as lebron

[bisme37]

I think it's fair to have Tatum in the lead at this moment. We only have a 15-ish game sample from these guys so far and Jokic has missed the last few games while Tatum has been consistently excellent. In a week it's probably Jokic again but let me enjoy my moment jeez.

[Slax]

I am betting against a jokic mvp for the same reason Nash didnt win 3.

Voters didnt want nash having 3 like bird and magic

And you can bet on the league voters not wanting jokic having as many as lebron

I hear you, but I don't think this is fully grappling with Jokic actually being as dominant as Jordan and LeBron to start the season. I don't think he's actually going to sustain this level of domination for a full season, but for argument's sake if he did actually did keep this up, it would be weird and embarrassing for the NBA if it did not reward possibly the greatest season ever played in league history with an MVP award.

[Larry_Russell]

I am betting against a jokic mvp for the same reason Nash didnt win 3.

Voters didnt want nash having 3 like bird and magic

And you can bet on the league voters not wanting jokic having as many as lebron

I hear you, but I don't think this is fully grappling with Jokic actually being as dominant as Jordan and LeBron to start the season. I don't think he's actually going to sustain this level of domination for a full season, but for argument's sake if he did actually did keep this up, it would be weird and embarrassing for the NBA if it did not reward possibly the greatest season ever played in league history with an MVP award.

I get what you are saying, but remember 2023?

33/10/4/1/1.7 with a bpm of 9.2 and a vorp of 6.4

versus
24.5/11.8/9.8/1.3/0.7 with a bpm of 13 and a vorp of 8.8

Jokic led Embiid in
Per, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, OWS%, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BOP, VORP, Ortg, 2pt%, 3pt%, fg%, ORB, DRB, TRB, AST, STl
Equal in Drtg, DWS

Embiid led jokic in
FGA, FT%, ppg, bpg, Usage

So embiid took more shots and was far less efficient of a scorer and blocked more shots than Jokic but wasnt an objectively better defender statistically.

There was NO REASON for Jokic to not win that, other than to not give him 3 in a row.

[Slax]

I am betting against a jokic mvp for the same reason Nash didnt win 3.

Voters didnt want nash having 3 like bird and magic

And you can bet on the league voters not wanting jokic having as many as lebron

I hear you, but I don't think this is fully grappling with Jokic actually being as dominant as Jordan and LeBron to start the season. I don't think he's actually going to sustain this level of domination for a full season, but for argument's sake if he did actually did keep this up, it would be weird and embarrassing for the NBA if it did not reward possibly the greatest season ever played in league history with an MVP award.

I get what you are saying, but remember 2023?

33/10/4/1/1.7 with a bpm of 9.2 and a vorp of 6.4

versus
24.5/11.8/9.8/1.3/0.7 with a bpm of 13 and a vorp of 8.8

Jokic led Embiid in
Per, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, OWS%, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BOP, VORP, Ortg, 2pt%, 3pt%, fg%, ORB, DRB, TRB, AST, STl
Equal in Drtg, DWS

Embiid led jokic in
FGA, FT%, ppg, bpg, Usage

So embiid took more shots and was far less efficient of a scorer and blocked more shots than Jokic but wasnt an objectively better defender statistically.

There was NO REASON for Jokic to not win that, other than to not give him 3 in a row.

I agree with you on a high level, and it's true Jokic wasn't given the three MVP's in a row because they didn't want to give him three in a row rather than because he wasn't the best player that third year. But I don't think this is the same situation. At least with the 2023 season, even though Jokic had the best season of any player and everyone knows it deep down, you can make some sort of passable-on-its-face justification that Embiid's 8+ ppg gap over Jokic was a huge lead in the single most heavily weighted counting stat and Jokic's ppg had declined from the previous season so it wasn't absurd to give it to Embiid. Does it hold up to scrutiny that Embiid was actually more valuable than Jokic? Not at all. But it's not straight up embarrassing either, the MVP is a narrative award and it's normal for it to rotate around a bit for inconsistent reasons.

However, hypothetically, if Jokic really were to finish the season putting up 30/14/12 with 67% TS and a +25 on/off on a mid-seed playoff team that is completely barren of talent for a full season, there's not even a colorable argument for why you might have preferred someone else's season this year. This would be like denying Jordan the MVP in the '96 season. That would be one of the greatest seasons in the history of the league, and it's the type of season you would want to refer back to when he's retired and compare to other all time greats.

The resolution here might be just that Jokic comes back to earth and we don't even have to consider this. But I think even if he comes back to earth some, we're still going to have to see how much.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Clippers would have 1 win without harden. It’s not all about shooting percentages. “Controlling”the game is a lost art amongst guards today

Read on Twitter

?s=46

[Exp0sed]

I am betting against a jokic mvp for the same reason Nash didnt win 3.

Voters didnt want nash having 3 like bird and magic

And you can bet on the league voters not wanting jokic having as many as lebron

I hear you, but I don't think this is fully grappling with Jokic actually being as dominant as Jordan and LeBron to start the season. I don't think he's actually going to sustain this level of domination for a full season, but for argument's sake if he did actually did keep this up, it would be weird and embarrassing for the NBA if it did not reward possibly the greatest season ever played in league history with an MVP award.

I get what you are saying, but remember 2023?

33/10/4/1/1.7 with a bpm of 9.2 and a vorp of 6.4

versus
24.5/11.8/9.8/1.3/0.7 with a bpm of 13 and a vorp of 8.8

Jokic led Embiid in
Per, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, OWS%, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BOP, VORP, Ortg, 2pt%, 3pt%, fg%, ORB, DRB, TRB, AST, STl
Equal in Drtg, DWS

Embiid led jokic in
FGA, FT%, ppg, bpg, Usage

So embiid took more shots and was far less efficient of a scorer and blocked more shots than Jokic but wasnt an objectively better defender statistically.

There was NO REASON for Jokic to not win that, other than to not give him 3 in a row.

Embiid played only when rested, ducked tough opponents and made of his damage in blowout when the game was already decided vs. scrub tanking teams, that comparison is laughable. Embiid's numbers were fake (as evidenced by the huge drop-off in the playoffs) and manufactured by pick and choosing and playing part time. Jokic was much better that season.

[Larry_Russell]

I hear you, but I don't think this is fully grappling with Jokic actually being as dominant as Jordan and LeBron to start the season. I don't think he's actually going to sustain this level of domination for a full season, but for argument's sake if he did actually did keep this up, it would be weird and embarrassing for the NBA if it did not reward possibly the greatest season ever played in league history with an MVP award.

I get what you are saying, but remember 2023?

33/10/4/1/1.7 with a bpm of 9.2 and a vorp of 6.4

versus
24.5/11.8/9.8/1.3/0.7 with a bpm of 13 and a vorp of 8.8

Jokic led Embiid in
Per, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, OWS%, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BOP, VORP, Ortg, 2pt%, 3pt%, fg%, ORB, DRB, TRB, AST, STl
Equal in Drtg, DWS

Embiid led jokic in
FGA, FT%, ppg, bpg, Usage

So embiid took more shots and was far less efficient of a scorer and blocked more shots than Jokic but wasnt an objectively better defender statistically.

There was NO REASON for Jokic to not win that, other than to not give him 3 in a row.

Embiid played only when rested, ducked tough opponents and made of his damage in blowout when the game was already decided vs. scrub tanking teams, that comparison is laughable. Embiid's numbers were fake (as evidenced by the huge drop-off in the playoffs) and manufactured by pick and choosing and playing part time. Jokic was much better that season.

I agree 100%

[Wolfgang630]

Embiid’s MVP is arguably the most manufactured MVP of all time. He was in control of how he got the MVP all the way to the end.

[Pelly24]

Yes weve seen it time and time again a player w/ playoff woes or recent bad outing is penalized in Mvp voting

I dont think you know what dog walked means. Mavs barely scraped by Okc. Both teams scored 636 points that series and Okc had biggest blowout win of the series. 2 of Mavs wins came in 1 possession game including game 6 where Mavs had to rally and won the game at the Ft line in the last 2 seconds

What is you OKC fans?

Both teams scored 636, and Mavs barely scraped by OKC?

They didn't need a full series to win, and frankly, OKC got lucky they made it past game 5.

They were dominated.

The Mavs were lucky to escape that series. SGA tore them up all 6 games, Luka didn't play well for his standards, Kyrie had one of the worst playoff series of his career. Unfortunately for SGA, nobody else on OKC showed up.

It was the same BS with Jokic before he won a ring. People would cry playoffs even though he balled out in losses & was let down by his teammates. Playoff history incudes more than just winning or losing.

See, mind you I'm a big Kyrie fan so take this with a grain of salt, but this really wasn't one of Kyrie's worst series. What's happening is that people are so stuck in the idea that he's only a scorer that when he does well as a playmaker and defender, they don't look at those elements. OKC was doubling and hedging Kyrie much more so than they were Luka when I was looking, and 90% of the time, Kyrie made the right play and dished it to the wide, wide open man. PJ averaged 18 ppg or so as a result for a shooting performance he wouldn't repeat. What made this a trickier situation was that as the No. 2 option, Kyrie is still supposed to kind of defer to Luka, who was now being guarded by Dort in single coverage. That was working for a while, but eventually Luka got healthy enough I guess and, any one on one matchup with Luka is a mismatch for the defender. Ironically, I think Kyrie could have gone against the game plan and just dribbled a lot and shot the ball 22 times instead of deferring to Luka and open shooters, but his decision making and playmaking and low turnover rate kept Luka and PJ engaged. And that's not even to account for the timely shots he hit and the great defense he was playing. People look at his point output, but look at how much less efficient SGA and Jalen Williams were compared to normal. Jalen had averaged like 19 a game on 62 TS% and he went down to 15 ppg on 50.9 TS%, for instance. And Kyrie was guarding him and SGA a decent amount, while getting steals and deflections all over the place. When I look back, he only really had one truly bad game:


Game 1: mavs lose, but he has 20 points on 65 TS%. Meh, but not bad

Game 2: Mavs win, he doesn't score much, but anyone watching the game could see the impact. Had 9 points, two steals, two blocks, 11 assists and had some timely buckets. At the time no one was really saying this was a bad game. Really, everyone said it was a great game. so, GOOD/Great.

Game 3: Mavs win, kyrie has an efficient 22 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists to go with a steal and a block. Even more notably though, he had a sequence to close out the game, and basically hit a game-winning shot over good defense. VERY GOOD

Game 4: This was a game where I felt like he wasn't aggressive when he clearly needed to be. He started out great, passed well again, but this wasn't good, and they lost, naturally. BAD

Game 5: He had 12 points on about 50% shooting with 4 assists and only one turnover. This wasn't a great Kyrie game, but he was still a plus and clearly didn't have to take a bunch of shots, and the team won comfortably by 12 points.

Game 6: This was the game he went into that chucker mode I spoke about, and it almost seems like people would have been happier if he did this the whole time. But, when it was needed, he went into this mode and got an efficient 22 points. But these included plenty of timely scoring to close out the game. Considering it was a closeout and considering the stakes and the shot-making, it's hard for me to call this a bad game. Maybe it's an okay game. Maybe it's a pretty good game. But he did what needed to be done when it mattered and they won. DECENT/GOOD

And most of this can't quite capture how solid he was on defense the entire way through, especially with a top 3 player in the league and two top 25 types in Jalen Williams and Chet.

So he ended the series averaging about 16 ppg and 6 assists on 53 TS%. Not great numbers, but considering how he took care of the ball and played defense and hit timely shots, this isn't much different from like, a 2019 or 2018 Kyle Lowry playoff series. So basically, Kyrie went from Kobe one series to a Kyle Lowry the next series. That's some crazy versatility and shows that his all-around game is pretty underrated. but because people can't accept his all-around game, it's seen as one of his worst series. But I'd say 2017 against the pacers and the raptors was worse, obviously the two Celtics series he lost and the 2019 bucks series are easily much worse than this OKC series, which I think will be considered an underrated one if people look back years from now.

Here's a pretty good video breakdown:

Watch on YouTube

[Triple M]

Clippers would have 1 win without harden. It’s not all about shooting percentages. “Controlling”the game is a lost art amongst guards today

Read on Twitter

?s=46

I like that you mentioned controlling the game. Yea, it's a loss art.

Things like run stopping or finding a hot hand is lost in positionless basketball.

[Packbuckman]

Giannis with another great game bucks starting to win. Doc needs to start the two young guys Ajax and AJ Green prince has been pretty good but would be better off bench. When Middleton eventually comes back even then he might be better coming off bench to start.

[RB34]

SGA getting absolutely carried by the whistle.

[WhatTheBuck]

Can you redo the poll options and give the best player in the game his own spot?

[AleksandarN]

Can you redo the poll options and give the best player in the game his own spot?

Jokic has his own spot

[AleksandarN]

People talking about voter fatigue and Jokic having only one championship so they can’t give him his fourth well Lebrón won his fourth MVP with only one title at the time.

[Packbuckman]

Two best players in the league is Giannis and jokic both are having historic seasons and now the bucks are starting to win it will be those two at the end. Malone is definitely the better coach so let’s see how Doc does the rest of this season he’s finally playing the younger players I hope it continues when Middleton comes back.

[Profound23]

The fact that one guy has the most 40 point games, leads the league in scoring, and is shooting over 60% FG, while being in the DPOY race, 5th in rebounds, 12th in blocks, top 25 in assists and he can't even get his own name as a potential selection is crazy.

He is doing this with Doc Rivers as coach, third best player being out all year so far, and second best player being extremely streaky.