Game Thread: NY Knicks at Phoenix Suns Wed, Nov 20 10:00 PM

[Jalen Bluntson]

If Philly called you up and offered Joel Embiid for OG + Mitch straight up... what would you say?

GFY and then hang up laughing.

[Kampuchea]

10pm? Can’t do it

[Guano]

10pm? Can’t do it

board is going to look like this at tip off

[Juco24]

If Philly called you up and offered Joel Embiid for OG + Mitch straight up... what would you say?

GFY and then hang up laughing.

[3toheadmelo]

KAT is not historically trash as a rim protector, that's hyperbole, right now is his worst season of his career and those numbers are gradually coming down. You can go through his numbers as a center, and they were never historically bad, they were league average and below in some cases.


DFG%

21/22 - 61.6%
20/21 - 61.9%
19/20 - 58.3%
18/19 - 57.8%
17/18 - 61.1%
16/17 - 60.5%
15/16 - 56.3%


His last year at center the Wolves were 13th defensively, is he great? No, but he's never been the worst, and him having growing pains at C after not playing it for 3 years is to be expected. Also, Mitch was at 70% last season, so it's obviously scheme, Ihart was better at rim than Mitch but worse as a team defender. If Mitch had 70%, and KAT is at 73% right now then it should be pretty clear the scheme is leading to it.

All of those teams he played the 5 they never made the playoffs or they were a first round exit. KAT only had a winning impact when he was at the 4. He has to play the 4 in order for this to work. Also Mitch was injured last year so you can’t really hold that against him.

KAT at the 5 = terrible defense.

Regardless of the defensive personnel around him, Towns-centered teams were glorified turnstiles for a large part of his early career. Minnesota ranked in the bottom 10 in defense for six straight seasons from 2015-16 to 2020-21, with their best performance coming in the year Towns missed almost half of their games.

Right now he’s just absolutely terrible.

Just how troubling has it been? Opponents are shooting 70.8 percent at the rim when KAT’s on the court and 54.2 percent when he’s off it. (The league average is currently 65.7 percent.) More directly, according to Bball-Index, opposing field goal percentages at the rim when Towns defends a shot are 13.1 percent higher than the shooter’s expected average. This number is so terrible for a big man that the second worst starting center in the category is Vucevic at … 4.8 percent.

According to Cleaning the Glass, their offensive rating with Towns is 125.1 and they’re scoring 8.7 more points per 100 possessions when he plays—two marks that place him in the 94th and 87th percentile at his position, respectively. Meanwhile, the Knicks’ defensive rating is 119.1 and the team is 5.3 points per 100 possessions worse with Towns on the court, putting him in the 22nd and 24th percentile. In simpler terms: Towns ranks 15th in offensive estimated plus-minus and 270th in defensive estimated plus-minus.

They made the playoffs with him at the 5, we're going to make the playoffs with him at the 5. The Wolves were 13th defensively with him as their C the last time he played it. This was about him being historically bad as a rim protector when the numbers have never said that. I went back to his rookie season, his numbers as a rim protector were never bad, they were either average or good in some seasons.


Right now, we have a +7.7 net rating with KAT on the court, the best number among the starters. Also, since we're using on/off DRTG, last season we had a 118.7 DRTG when Mitch was on the court, so his defensive stats were almost identical to the ones KAT has right now, right down to the rim protection DFG% which was 70%. That is a scheme issue, if two completely different centers have almost identical defensive numbers seperated by a year, that is coaching. And even then, KAT's numbers have been improving slowly, the last 5 games he's at 60.9% which is in line with his career numbers.

Nobody has ever said KAT is an elite defender, but he is not among the worst rim protectors ever, and the numbers clearly say that. We have 7 years of his DFG% at center, and they never went over 62%, so how can he be historically bad at that?

13th defensively but still couldn't get out the 1st round. He gets targeted on defense all the time in the post season, especially at the 5. The post season is a different animal.
Every year he played the 5 his DEF rating was absurdly terrible and he had awful net ratings. He's not a positive at the 5.


He really needs to be next to a 5 to be effective. The Timberwolves were getting destroyed in the mins he didn't play next to Gobert in the playoffs.

Read on Twitter

It's not really fair to use that 70% DFG against Mitch last year when that's a clear outlier and he was hurt the whole year.

2022-2023 season Mitch had a DFG% of 57% at the rim.
2021-2022 DFG%: 53% At the rim
2020-2021 DFG% 58% at the rim

So it's not a Thibs scheme issue since Mitch has been pretty dominant protecting the rim.

KAT has a long way to go. His DFG% for the season at the rim is atrocious and worst in the league for a starting big. We aren't winning a chip with that unless we play him next to a C, which the Knicks reportedly want to do since they're aware of KAT's lack of defense.

[3toheadmelo]

KAT is not historically trash as a rim protector, that's hyperbole, right now is his worst season of his career and those numbers are gradually coming down. You can go through his numbers as a center, and they were never historically bad, they were league average and below in some cases.


DFG%

21/22 - 61.6%
20/21 - 61.9%
19/20 - 58.3%
18/19 - 57.8%
17/18 - 61.1%
16/17 - 60.5%
15/16 - 56.3%


His last year at center the Wolves were 13th defensively, is he great? No, but he's never been the worst, and him having growing pains at C after not playing it for 3 years is to be expected. Also, Mitch was at 70% last season, so it's obviously scheme, Ihart was better at rim than Mitch but worse as a team defender. If Mitch had 70%, and KAT is at 73% right now then it should be pretty clear the scheme is leading to it.

All of those teams he played the 5 they never made the playoffs or they were a first round exit. KAT only had a winning impact when he was at the 4. He has to play the 4 in order for this to work. Also Mitch was injured last year so you can’t really hold that against him.

KAT at the 5 = terrible defense.

Regardless of the defensive personnel around him, Towns-centered teams were glorified turnstiles for a large part of his early career. Minnesota ranked in the bottom 10 in defense for six straight seasons from 2015-16 to 2020-21, with their best performance coming in the year Towns missed almost half of their games.

Right now he’s just absolutely terrible.

Just how troubling has it been? Opponents are shooting 70.8 percent at the rim when KAT’s on the court and 54.2 percent when he’s off it. (The league average is currently 65.7 percent.) More directly, according to Bball-Index, opposing field goal percentages at the rim when Towns defends a shot are 13.1 percent higher than the shooter’s expected average. This number is so terrible for a big man that the second worst starting center in the category is Vucevic at … 4.8 percent.

According to Cleaning the Glass, their offensive rating with Towns is 125.1 and they’re scoring 8.7 more points per 100 possessions when he plays—two marks that place him in the 94th and 87th percentile at his position, respectively. Meanwhile, the Knicks’ defensive rating is 119.1 and the team is 5.3 points per 100 possessions worse with Towns on the court, putting him in the 22nd and 24th percentile. In simpler terms: Towns ranks 15th in offensive estimated plus-minus and 270th in defensive estimated plus-minus.

EPM shows KAT's impact on winning actually dipped after moving to the 4 in Minny.

KAT has always had a positive impact on winning. He just had crap teams around him except for that one season with Jimmy. How was he expected to make the playoffs with the likes of Andrew Wiggins, D'Angelo Russell or Dario Saric as his best teammates?

You're missing the forest for the trees by overly focusing on rim protection. It's a very specific issue, and rim protection numbers are affected by both personnel and scheme. But you can have a championship-winning defense without rim protection.

And the Knicks defense has been solid overall since the Boston game. With KAT at the 5.

He only had a positive net rating in the playoffs when he was at the 4 though.

Hey Randle took a team with RJ, Payton, Taj gibson and bullocks to the playoffs. Those are way worse players than wiggins and Russell

Look there hasn't been a single team outside of the Nuggets who has a generational talent in Jokic that won a championship without a rim protector. Now unless you think KAT is on Jokic's level, it's a 1% chance of happening imo.

[3toheadmelo]

KAT is not historically trash as a rim protector, that's hyperbole, right now is his worst season of his career and those numbers are gradually coming down. You can go through his numbers as a center, and they were never historically bad, they were league average and below in some cases.


DFG%

21/22 - 61.6%
20/21 - 61.9%
19/20 - 58.3%
18/19 - 57.8%
17/18 - 61.1%
16/17 - 60.5%
15/16 - 56.3%


His last year at center the Wolves were 13th defensively, is he great? No, but he's never been the worst, and him having growing pains at C after not playing it for 3 years is to be expected. Also, Mitch was at 70% last season, so it's obviously scheme, Ihart was better at rim than Mitch but worse as a team defender. If Mitch had 70%, and KAT is at 73% right now then it should be pretty clear the scheme is leading to it.

All of those teams he played the 5 they never made the playoffs or they were a first round exit. KAT only had a winning impact when he was at the 4. He has to play the 4 in order for this to work. Also Mitch was injured last year so you can’t really hold that against him.

KAT at the 5 = terrible defense.

Regardless of the defensive personnel around him, Towns-centered teams were glorified turnstiles for a large part of his early career. Minnesota ranked in the bottom 10 in defense for six straight seasons from 2015-16 to 2020-21, with their best performance coming in the year Towns missed almost half of their games.

Right now he’s just absolutely terrible.

Just how troubling has it been? Opponents are shooting 70.8 percent at the rim when KAT’s on the court and 54.2 percent when he’s off it. (The league average is currently 65.7 percent.) More directly, according to Bball-Index, opposing field goal percentages at the rim when Towns defends a shot are 13.1 percent higher than the shooter’s expected average. This number is so terrible for a big man that the second worst starting center in the category is Vucevic at … 4.8 percent.

According to Cleaning the Glass, their offensive rating with Towns is 125.1 and they’re scoring 8.7 more points per 100 possessions when he plays—two marks that place him in the 94th and 87th percentile at his position, respectively. Meanwhile, the Knicks’ defensive rating is 119.1 and the team is 5.3 points per 100 possessions worse with Towns on the court, putting him in the 22nd and 24th percentile. In simpler terms: Towns ranks 15th in offensive estimated plus-minus and 270th in defensive estimated plus-minus.

What its quickly looking like as the deal with KAT:

He is a monster at almost everything but rim protection will probably never be great. He has in just a few short games shown more value to this team than Randle would have had.

Once we get a more elite rim protector for some minutes at the 5 , we won't have to rely as much on KAT for that dynamic.

He's even worse than Randle at protecting the rim

As much as Towns has opened up the Knicks' offense by playing center, he's also opened up the middle of the paint because of that same positional switch. Among the 56 big men who have defended at least 30 shots from within six feet, Towns ranks dead last in field goal percentage allowed.

Opponents are shooting 73.1 percent against Towns around the basket. That's almost twice what Victor Wembanyama (38.8 percent) allows. Even a below-average defender like Julius Randle allows just 61.7 percent at the rim.

[KnixinSix]

All of those teams he played the 5 they never made the playoffs or they were a first round exit. KAT only had a winning impact when he was at the 4. He has to play the 4 in order for this to work. Also Mitch was injured last year so you can’t really hold that against him.

KAT at the 5 = terrible defense.


Right now he’s just absolutely terrible.

EPM shows KAT's impact on winning actually dipped after moving to the 4 in Minny.

KAT has always had a positive impact on winning. He just had crap teams around him except for that one season with Jimmy. How was he expected to make the playoffs with the likes of Andrew Wiggins, D'Angelo Russell or Dario Saric as his best teammates?

You're missing the forest for the trees by overly focusing on rim protection. It's a very specific issue, and rim protection numbers are affected by both personnel and scheme. But you can have a championship-winning defense without rim protection.

And the Knicks defense has been solid overall since the Boston game. With KAT at the 5.

He only had a positive net rating in the playoffs when he was at the 4 though.

Hey Randle took a team with RJ, Payton, Taj gibson and bullocks to the playoffs. Those are way worse players than wiggins and Russell

Look there hasn't been a single team outside of the Nuggets who has a generational talent in Jokic that won a championship without a rim protector. Now unless you think KAT is on Jokic's level, it's a 1% chance of happening imo.

Kristaps Porzingis played in only 3 games during the 2023 NBA playoffs, as he suffered a calf strain in the first round and missed the majority of the postseason due to injuries, only returning for Game 1 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals.

Warriors won a few times without an elite rim protector too.

Lastly we will likely have our elite rim protector back with plenty of time left in the s3ason.

[3toheadmelo]

EPM shows KAT's impact on winning actually dipped after moving to the 4 in Minny.

KAT has always had a positive impact on winning. He just had crap teams around him except for that one season with Jimmy. How was he expected to make the playoffs with the likes of Andrew Wiggins, D'Angelo Russell or Dario Saric as his best teammates?

You're missing the forest for the trees by overly focusing on rim protection. It's a very specific issue, and rim protection numbers are affected by both personnel and scheme. But you can have a championship-winning defense without rim protection.

And the Knicks defense has been solid overall since the Boston game. With KAT at the 5.

He only had a positive net rating in the playoffs when he was at the 4 though.

Hey Randle took a team with RJ, Payton, Taj gibson and bullocks to the playoffs. Those are way worse players than wiggins and Russell

Look there hasn't been a single team outside of the Nuggets who has a generational talent in Jokic that won a championship without a rim protector. Now unless you think KAT is on Jokic's level, it's a 1% chance of happening imo.

Kristaps Porzingis played in only 3 games during the 2023 NBA playoffs, as he suffered a calf strain in the first round and missed the majority of the postseason due to injuries, only returning for Game 1 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals.

Warriors won a few times without an elite rim protector too.

Lastly we will likely have our elite rim protector back with plenty of time left in the s3ason.

Huh? The Celtics have Al Horford who has been a really good rim protector for his career. The Warriors won rings with one of the best defensive rim protectors in the league aka Draymond Green.

There just isnt a single team out there who won a championship without rim protection. Unless you have a generational talent like Jokic.

[sol537]

I agree that we need elite rim protection, even if for 50-75% of the game so hoping Precious and Mitch can step in and provide that.

[Spree2Houston]

10pm? Can’t do it

Take some C4

[ctorres]

I agree that we need elite rim protection, even if for 50-75% of the game so hoping Precious and Mitch can step in and provide that.

Mitch could be the best back up center of all time if he embraced coming off the bench for Towns.

I feel like Mitch would be way more useful in limited minutes than playing for 30 minutes a night.

Mitch beat Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen. He beat Embiid. He will carve a legacy for himself if he helps us to a title, even as a back-up.

[Houston99]

should be a good game im from AZ totally forgot about the game i ussually go every year

[Houston99]

I agree that we need elite rim protection, even if for 50-75% of the game so hoping Precious and Mitch can step in and provide that.

Mitch could be the best back up center of all time if he embraced coming off the bench for Towns.

I feel like Mitch would be way more useful in limited minutes than playing for 30 minutes a night.

Mitch beat Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen. He beat Embiid. He will carve a legacy for himself if he helps us to a title, even as a back-up.

For Mitch to be healthier he needs to avg bewetten 20-25 min a game and put him when we need defense

[Jeff Van Gully]

You're missing out on one of the best shooters in the NBA and Twitter because of your hate

Read on Twitter

"pre madonna" is one of my favorite educational litmus tests.

i have to wonder what people who write that think it means.

Obviously it's the time before July 27, 1983!!!! DUH!!!!















Yes I had to google that

Borderline and Lucky Star are STILL my ****

[Capn'O]

10pm? Can’t do it

board is going to look like this at tip off

West coast will stand up!

Spoiler:

Actually, I have a night meeting

[KnixinSix]

He only had a positive net rating in the playoffs when he was at the 4 though.

Hey Randle took a team with RJ, Payton, Taj gibson and bullocks to the playoffs. Those are way worse players than wiggins and Russell

Look there hasn't been a single team outside of the Nuggets who has a generational talent in Jokic that won a championship without a rim protector. Now unless you think KAT is on Jokic's level, it's a 1% chance of happening imo.

Kristaps Porzingis played in only 3 games during the 2023 NBA playoffs, as he suffered a calf strain in the first round and missed the majority of the postseason due to injuries, only returning for Game 1 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals.

Warriors won a few times without an elite rim protector too.

Lastly we will likely have our elite rim protector back with plenty of time left in the s3ason.

Huh? The Celtics have Al Horford who has been a really good rim protector for his career. The Warriors won rings with one of the best defensive rim protectors in the league aka Draymond Green.

There just isnt a single team out there who won a championship without rim protection. Unless you have a generational talent like Jokic.

Being a good defender and being an elite rim protector are two separate things.

[Jalen Bluntson]

I know nothing about the PF they have. Anyone have the 411? Is he good at things or just a bench player starting because of the injuries?

[3toheadmelo]

Kristaps Porzingis played in only 3 games during the 2023 NBA playoffs, as he suffered a calf strain in the first round and missed the majority of the postseason due to injuries, only returning for Game 1 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals.

Warriors won a few times without an elite rim protector too.

Lastly we will likely have our elite rim protector back with plenty of time left in the s3ason.

Huh? The Celtics have Al Horford who has been a really good rim protector for his career. The Warriors won rings with one of the best defensive rim protectors in the league aka Draymond Green.

There just isnt a single team out there who won a championship without rim protection. Unless you have a generational talent like Jokic.

Being a good defender and being an elite rim protector are two separate things.

Are you saying Al Horford and Draymond Green aren't good rim protectors Not sure if you're serious unless you haven't watched the NBA for at least the past 5 years.

[Jeff Van Gully]

If Philly called you up and offered Joel Embiid for OG + Mitch straight up... what would you say?

GFY and then hang up laughing.