Game Thread: NY Knicks at Phoenix Suns Wed, Nov 20 10:00 PM

[Sealab2024]

Wolves fan who lurks around here to keep an eye on KAT. I can put some of this into perspective. Karl isn't a terrible rim protector and certainly not historically bad. What he is bad at is protecting the rim in drop coverage. There's a few reasons for this.

#1 he's just never developed great feel for playing drop and historically has been easy to get to commit too early and gets worked around for easy buckets when he can't recover. This has slightly improved over the years and I think playing next to Gobert (the king of drop coverage) helped a bot as well. Now he's just bad at it. He used to be unplayable in it if you were serious about winning. However he's great at playing the top and stunting out on the perimeter.

#2: he's not a two foot jumper. He's not gonna stand in front of the basket and leap with drivers for the plain fact that he's not that kind of athlete. He can certainly sky a bit off one foot with momentum but when you think of great rim protector who can just bounce up from a standing post and block shots, that's not KAT. For that reason he gets attacked a lot when trying to protect the rim. He actually has decent feel for blocking guys, especially in help or maned up, but he'll never be the kind of guy you can just plant in the paint and watch erase perimeter defense mistakes.

As for the Denver series, of all the people in the world that are perfect matchups for Towns, Jokic sits comfortably atop that list. KAT is big enough that you can just put him straight on Jokic one on one and say "stop him" and KAT can really mess Nikola up. Karls big enough he's not gonna get pushed around, he's long enough that Jokic can't just shoot over him, he's played Denver 4 times a year his whole career so he knows all their tricks and Joker isn't anything close to quick enough to go around Towns so KAT could play as tight as the refs allowed (which was pretty tight). It's a peculiar glitch in the NBA matrix but Karls the Jokic stopper. I wouldn't extrapolate those numbers outside that matchup.

[Calinks]

Ah. Yea, I mean, Towns isn't the best rim protector. I don't think he's absolute shambles, I just think he's mediocre. He's better facing up and putting a body on defenders, he's better playing defense more like a guard. He enjoyed chasing bigs around and being physical as opposed to making decisions and manning the paint. He played his best individual defense at the 5 the season before we got Gobert and we were a helter-skelter scramble team. He thrived in that kind of scheme.

That said he isn't hopeless in other schemes, just last season he was marvelous against Denver in game 2 when Rudy didn't play. I don't think he can play that well consistently but I also wont say he can never improve to be a good defender either. The man is versatile.

Honestly, for me, his defense has been down the list of my concerns for him. It's a small afterthought. His biggest issue by far IMO is mental. His "Stray voltage". Dude just gets mentally amped and does ridiculous stuff at times and can have meltdowns. It comes out in the form of bad fouls and overly engaging with the refs. He starts complaining a lot and the refs get really tired of it and it just makes them want to punish him by not giving him more calls and then it just pisses him off more and it's a terrible cycle.

To me its the biggest thing holding him back from being one of the all-time greats and its so frustrating because its totally self-inflicted. Its a mental limitation, not a skill or physical one. Could argue maybe an IQ one but honestly I think he's just too passionate and emotional at times and he has a problem managing that. He has improved in the last 18 months though.

[stuporman]

I need to poo

fify

[NoDopeOnSundays]

13th defensively but still couldn't get out the 1st round. He gets targeted on defense all the time in the post season, especially at the 5. The post season is a different animal.
Every year he played the 5 his DEF rating was absurdly terrible and he had awful net ratings. He's not a positive at the 5.


He really needs to be next to a 5 to be effective. The Timberwolves were getting destroyed in the mins he didn't play next to Gobert in the playoffs.

Read on Twitter

It's not really fair to use that 70% DFG against Mitch last year when that's a clear outlier and he was hurt the whole year.

2022-2023 season Mitch had a DFG% of 57% at the rim.
2021-2022 DFG%: 53% At the rim
2020-2021 DFG% 58% at the rim

So it's not a Thibs scheme issue since Mitch has been pretty dominant protecting the rim.

KAT has a long way to go. His DFG% for the season at the rim is atrocious and worst in the league for a starting big. We aren't winning a chip with that unless we play him next to a C, which the Knicks reportedly want to do since they're aware of KAT's lack of defense.

You and I went over the playoffs net rating already, just a quick hit everyone in the starting lineup including Jimmy Butler had a negative net rating in 2017-2018, they were playing against the 65-17 Rockets. He has been on the 7th, 8th, 8th seeds, was he supposed to be a net positive in the series he lost? Also, what do the playoffs have to do with the claim that he is a historically bad rim protector? Why are playoffs being mentioned, if that's the case he was at 59.7% DFG last year in the playoffs, only .2% behind Gobert. This was about historically bad rim protection, I've posted the numbers, they have shown that isn't true.


I'm not being fair to Mitch because of an outlier season where his DFG% was higher? Those 3 seasons averaged 56% DFG, while 70% was an outlier, so how is it being fair to KAT to call him historically bad rim protector due to a season which is currently an outlier. His 7 seasons averaged out to 59.6% DFG as a center in Minnesota, so is it being fair to KAT to use the start of a season in which he's at 73%, especially when you've seen that the number is trending down. It's a 14% difference in both instances, but KAT's current season is somehow indicative of him being historically bad over the entirety of his career, that isn't fair.

He absolutely got neutralized by Capela and they attacked him in that series. We've already been through this, you're right

Why are you ignoring that all of his teams he played the 5 they were in the bottom 10 of the league in defenses? And by the way, that year they finished 13th in the defensive rating, KAT had a DFG% of 65% at the rim in the playoffs. It's absolutely terrible. In the 2023 Playoffs he had a DFG% of 75% at the rim. DFG of 75% at the rim in the post season is historically bad. No starting C in a post season has ever been that bad.

We can keep going in circles about this, but there's really no evidence that suggests a team with KAT at the 5 can work in the playoffs.
Here's even more data it never ends

In Minnesota's most played lineup excluding Gobert, and Towns at the five, the Wolves gave up 122 points per 100 possessions—ranking in the 21st percentile.

How are you gonna say all the teams he played the 5 were bottom 10, then follow it up with "The year they finished 13th" in the same sentence. You're ignoring the fact that he had a 59.6% DFG in all 7 of his seasons as the Wolves center, now you're using his DFG% in 2023 when he was a PF to talk about how bad he is at C. Too many blanket statements with no backing that are really easy to check, like saying no starting C in the post season has ever been that bad, when Zubac quiet literally gave up 75% DFG in 2023, which is the same season KAT did it at POWER FORWARD. Valanciunas gave up 80.8% the year before, in 2021 with the Mavs KP gave up 73.7% it's not that difficult to check.


I've never made a claim that he was elite or great as a rim protector, you could just admit that calling him historically bad was a poor choice, instead you're trying to make anything stick. We're not going to go around in circles over this, because the number is going to come down gradually over the course of the season, like it has been doing over the past couple games.

[Calinks]

Wolves fan who lurks around here to keep an eye on KAT. I can put some of this into perspective. Karl isn't a terrible rim protector and certainly not historically bad. What he is bad at is protecting the rim in drop coverage. There's a few reasons for this.

#1 he's just never developed great feel for playing drop and historically has been easy to get to commit too early and gets worked around for easy buckets when he can't recover. This has slightly improved over the years and I think playing next to Gobert (the king of drop coverage) helped a bot as well. Now he's just bad at it. He used to be unplayable in it if you were serious about winning. However he's great at playing the top and stunting out on the perimeter.

#2: he's not a two foot jumper. He's not gonna stand in front of the basket and leap with drivers for the plain fact that he's not that kind of athlete. He can certainly sky a bit off one foot with momentum but when you think of great rim protector who can just bounce up from a standing post and block shots, that's not KAT. For that reason he gets attacked a lot when trying to protect the rim. He actually has decent feel for blocking guys, especially in help or maned up, but he'll never be the kind of guy you can just plant in the paint and watch erase perimeter defense mistakes.

As for the Denver series, of all the people in the world that are perfect matchups for Towns, Jokic sits comfortably atop that list. KAT is big enough that you can just put him straight on Jokic one on one and say "stop him" and KAT can really mess Nikola up. Karls big enough he's not gonna get pushed around, he's long enough that Jokic can't just shoot over him, he's played Denver 4 times a year his whole career so he knows all their tricks and Joker isn't anything close to quick enough to go around Towns so KAT could play as tight as the refs allowed (which was pretty tight). It's a peculiar glitch in the NBA matrix but Karls the Jokic stopper. I wouldn't extrapolate those numbers outside that matchup.

Well said. And I concur that drop is like absolutely the worst the coverage to put Towns in. You are taking a poor defender and putting them in the historically worse defensive scheme they have played in in their career. So what you are watching is literally the worst case scenario for Towns when you have seen him in drop. He is better elsewhere though not really great anywhere though he has had flashes in recent years in small chunks.

[Calinks]

I meant to post this video but here is Towns playing excellent defense when Gobert missed game 2 in the playoffs against Denver last season. He was damn near elite this game and the team put one of the best defensive performances I have seen in 25 years. Keep in mind he had also just rushed back from a major injury that had kept him out several weeks the series before this too so he wasn't 100 percent in the playoffs.

So he is capable of being very good, the question is how often can he replicate it? If he can be above average or better consistently at the 5 that's an absolute Armageddon scenario for the eastern conference. And I STRONGLY believe he needs to stay at the 5 to be at his best.

Watch on YouTube

[HighRyzer83]

I hate that the suns got blown out last game. Usually when a team gets slapped around they play unusually well the next game. Even bad teams

[3toheadmelo]

You and I went over the playoffs net rating already, just a quick hit everyone in the starting lineup including Jimmy Butler had a negative net rating in 2017-2018, they were playing against the 65-17 Rockets. He has been on the 7th, 8th, 8th seeds, was he supposed to be a net positive in the series he lost? Also, what do the playoffs have to do with the claim that he is a historically bad rim protector? Why are playoffs being mentioned, if that's the case he was at 59.7% DFG last year in the playoffs, only .2% behind Gobert. This was about historically bad rim protection, I've posted the numbers, they have shown that isn't true.


I'm not being fair to Mitch because of an outlier season where his DFG% was higher? Those 3 seasons averaged 56% DFG, while 70% was an outlier, so how is it being fair to KAT to call him historically bad rim protector due to a season which is currently an outlier. His 7 seasons averaged out to 59.6% DFG as a center in Minnesota, so is it being fair to KAT to use the start of a season in which he's at 73%, especially when you've seen that the number is trending down. It's a 14% difference in both instances, but KAT's current season is somehow indicative of him being historically bad over the entirety of his career, that isn't fair.

He absolutely got neutralized by Capela and they attacked him in that series. We've already been through this, you're right

Why are you ignoring that all of his teams he played the 5 they were in the bottom 10 of the league in defenses? And by the way, that year they finished 13th in the defensive rating, KAT had a DFG% of 65% at the rim in the playoffs. It's absolutely terrible. In the 2023 Playoffs he had a DFG% of 75% at the rim. DFG of 75% at the rim in the post season is historically bad. No starting C in a post season has ever been that bad.

We can keep going in circles about this, but there's really no evidence that suggests a team with KAT at the 5 can work in the playoffs.
Here's even more data it never ends

In Minnesota's most played lineup excluding Gobert, and Towns at the five, the Wolves gave up 122 points per 100 possessions—ranking in the 21st percentile.

How are you gonna say all the teams he played the 5 were bottom 10, then follow it up with "The year they finished 13th" in the same sentence. You're ignoring the fact that he had a 59.6% DFG in all 7 of his seasons as the Wolves center, now you're using his DFG% in 2023 when he was a PF to talk about how bad he is at C. Too many blanket statements with no backing that are really easy to check, like saying no starting C in the post season has ever been that bad, when Zubac quiet literally gave up 75% DFG in 2023, which is the same season KAT did it at POWER FORWARD.


I've never made a claim that he was elite or great as a rim protector, you could just admit that calling him historically bad was a poor choice, instead you're trying to make anything stick. We're not going to go around in circles over this, because the number is going to come down gradually over the course of the season, like it has been doing over the past couple games.

Because finishing 13th in DEF rating was the only outlier and he still played terrible defensively in the post season and they got bounced in the 1st round. So why should it matter?

I stand corrected about 2023.

So you found only one other starting C that had 75% DFG at the rim. That's still historically bad. 1 other player

The number can go down all it want in the regular season and I hope i does, but if we don't win a chip then all of that is moot. My point is that no team has won a chip without having a rim protector. You're just arguing about semantics about "historically bad". I don't really care about that. I care if we win a chip or not with him at the 5 and historically it never happened in the modern era without a rim protector besides Jokic.

At the end of the day, the Knicks and teams around the league know that we can't survive with KAT at the 5.

Read on Twitter

[Fat]

I ain’t reading all that!

[MrDollarBills]

Jamal Crawford is an excellent color analyst.

[Calinks]

One final note about Towns' defense Knicks fans may not be aware of. He was instrumental in our run last season in large part because of his defense. As we talked about, he was our best defender against Jokic, but he was also KEY in the Suns series as he was our primary defender on Kevin Durant of all players. He did a good job of bothering Durant, no, he did not shut KD down but he defended him well and made life difficult and provided a matchup that allowed us to dominate the Suns and sweep them in 4.

Without KAT's defense we do not sweep, we may not even win that series. You want to talk about his shortcomings and what he can't do but how many centers can guard Jokic one night and KD the next?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

He absolutely got neutralized by Capela and they attacked him in that series. We've already been through this, you're right

Why are you ignoring that all of his teams he played the 5 they were in the bottom 10 of the league in defenses? And by the way, that year they finished 13th in the defensive rating, KAT had a DFG% of 65% at the rim in the playoffs. It's absolutely terrible. In the 2023 Playoffs he had a DFG% of 75% at the rim. DFG of 75% at the rim in the post season is historically bad. No starting C in a post season has ever been that bad.

We can keep going in circles about this, but there's really no evidence that suggests a team with KAT at the 5 can work in the playoffs.
Here's even more data it never ends

How are you gonna say all the teams he played the 5 were bottom 10, then follow it up with "The year they finished 13th" in the same sentence. You're ignoring the fact that he had a 59.6% DFG in all 7 of his seasons as the Wolves center, now you're using his DFG% in 2023 when he was a PF to talk about how bad he is at C. Too many blanket statements with no backing that are really easy to check, like saying no starting C in the post season has ever been that bad, when Zubac quiet literally gave up 75% DFG in 2023, which is the same season KAT did it at POWER FORWARD.


I've never made a claim that he was elite or great as a rim protector, you could just admit that calling him historically bad was a poor choice, instead you're trying to make anything stick. We're not going to go around in circles over this, because the number is going to come down gradually over the course of the season, like it has been doing over the past couple games.

Because finishing 13th in DEF rating was the only outlier and he still played terrible defensively in the post season and they got bounced in the 1st round. So why should it matter?

I stand corrected about 2023.

So you found only one other starting C that had 75% DFG at the rim. That's still historically bad. 1 other player

The number can go down all it want in the regular season and I hope i does, but if we don't win a chip then all of that is moot. My point is that no team has won a chip without having a rim protector. You're just arguing about semantics about "historically bad". I don't really care about that. I care if we win a chip or not with him at the 5 and historically it never happened in the modern era without a rim protector besides Jokic.

At the end of the day, the Knicks and teams around the league know that we can't survive with KAT at the 5.

Read on Twitter

KAT's individual net rating while playing C with the Wolves was 109, so maybe he wasn't actually the problem in all those seasons. But, making him appear as bad as possible seems to be the goal, even though the Wolves fans who watched him the most are here, and they also don't think he is historically bad.

Jonas 80.8% in 2022, Porzingis gave up 73.7% in 2021 and the list goes on, but the point is you said it was the worst ever, when it's not even the worst in the last 5 years and he wasn't playing C either. It's not semantics, saying someone is historically bad over and over then being shown that isn't the case isn't semantics.

Whether he can or can't play the 5 is really moot, since we have options to play him at the 4 or 5 based on matchups which is something we never had, and Tom never wanted to go small till now.

[Spree2Houston]

Game going triple OT and we’ll be in bed at 2am

[DaGawd]

can we stfu about towns’ rim protection for a bit? it hasn’t been an issue recently

[stuporman]

Wolves fans visitors...it's his feet, that's all.

His big plodding feet aren't the most conducive for playing defense. The best big men defenders have the best feet, he will always have limitations because of his feet. On offense the moves are more practiced so a player can be great offensive players that the quick reactive nature of playing defense isn't the same.

Simply, it's his feet.

[offense]

buzzard the good luck charm

[Fat]

Suns logo annoying

[aggo]

dunn guarding brunson
nurkic on hart

[NoDopeOnSundays]

At least Ryan Dunn's shooting has cooled off.

[Guano]

Need jHart to be aggressive if they're putting nurk on him