PG: Knicks vs Suns- 11/21/24

[The Vo Show]

The Minny and Bulls teams might have won more if they weren't injured...we should have advanced past Indy last year if we weren't injured.

I know you don't want to shoulder any injury blame on thibs but it still seems to be a common theme with his teams. He does need to shoulder some of that blame.

This is scapegoating. No coach has been able to prevent injuries because they are simply part of the game

Not to sound all wise and chit but I think both are partly true.

I do think some injuries are simply basketball related. Were Derrick Rose's knees a ticking time bomb? I believe so. If it wasn't that game 1 against Philly, he would have blown out his knee another evening. Randle's injury last season was a classic basketball accident - one Thibs had no control over. And as you say, injuries are a part of the game, and a lot of championships are won because other teams suffered injuries.

But I think it's also fair to point out that Thibs can be unwise with his minutes. He brought back OG last year and had him play over 35 minutes in his second game back and 33 in his third game back - he missed the next 9 games because he wasn't ready. Mitch got hurt last year because he came back without having fully recovered from his initial injury. My point is, Thibs isn't maximizing his chances with the way he manages minutes, and has a tendency to put his team at risk of falling on the unluckier side of its destiny.

Just pulling the starters with 5 minutes left when they're up 30 and the other team has waved the white flag would already help us all breathe a bit more easy. Leaving them in the game in those situations is totally unnecessary and frankly quite absurd, yet he seems hellbent on proving some point that resonates with no one but him.

I think part of this is that Thibs may be showing he trusts his guys coming off injury and therefore they should trust their bodies too. Just a guess. We all know Thibs is insane but he's been around the game long enough to know guys coming off injuries are normally eased in. So I'm just guessing he has a reason to do this time and again (beyond needing to win a game that is).

To the second bold point, completely agree. Regardless if injuries come from wear and tear or just freak accidents, reducing the minutes played will reduce the opportunities for injury. Thibs is increasing the players' risk for reasons that most of us don't agree with or even understand sometimes.

Thibs may believe that playing guys 38 mins a night in the regular season preps their bodies to play 38-42 mins a night in the playoffs. Its like when you train your jumper, you get reps in fresh and then you run your legs down and get reps in with your legs depleted. Blowing out a team by 20 with 4 mins to go is not the time to do this though.

[The KnicksFix]

Beautiful win! I love these Knicks!

Where did NYK mentality go? That dood used to cream himself over guys like cleanthony early

He's on Twitter, but he got banned from here after he posted a pic of a gun and threatened to shoot Wingo

No way LMAO, thats low key hilarious, he was always so positive about the Knicks, didn’t know he was also crazy LOL… sorry about that Wingo

[BKlutch]

One way to look at injuries is to say that more wear and tear from playing more minutes increases the risk of injury. There is some debate about it, but most of us think that's true.

Then there's a second factor that is not debatable - if you play twice as much, you have twice as much risk of injury just based on having more exposure to injury. It's like the more miles you drive, the more accidents you'll have, even though your rate of accidents per mile may be low. So yeah, common sense says protect the guys we can't replace. Protect the core. I'm not sure how they balance that against the need to win a game. But whatever algorithm they're using, it makes us very concerned.

[HEZI]

But you are going based on assumption. Your no doctor I’m no doctor so what plays what role in a certain players injury is not something we can answer. Every case is different so let’s stick to what we actually do know and not pretend like we are now some medical experts. So you are just scapegoating because a player gets injured and there is nobody else to blame but the coach

If Thibs caused Derrick Rose to tear his ACL because he played him 35 mpg then you should have beef with every coach in the league

Coaches playing guys under 30 minutes still can’t keep certain players healthy. Coaches playing guys that are fat and out of shape 37 mpg can still reach the finals. It’s just what it is

Hezi, this is my career. I’m a sports physical therapist. Mp makes valid points here.

I am no doctor but you have people review medicals do testing on these players probably on a daily basis. Load management and minutes restrictions weren't just pulled out of thin air...years and years of research was provided to teams and organization about keeping players healthy.

Now that doesn't mean you can't do everything right and a player take a wrong step or fall and an injury can't happen. There are no absolutes with the human body and sports. Guys with the best pitching form can get Tommy John surgery...but just because its "happen stance" doesn't mean especially during a regular season game teams will throw a pitcher on 3 days rest or 120 pitches because there is science behind that much wear and tear.

Players are bigger and stronger and faster so you are going to have more injuries.

All I'm saying Thibs is a foundation builder. I appreciate his attention to detail and his win at all cost mode most of the time. He does get tend to get overwhelmed with the smaller picture like winning a game vs CHI in NOV and playing an injury prone player like OG 40 mins when that is a ridiculous decision with his history.

I dont' even get on him for Mikal because his body type and the way he plays is probably ok to give him extensive minutes but a choppy more start and stop player like OG...KAT those guys need more attention and he needs to be reigned in at times.

If you treat every injury as happen stance I don't think the medical staff or coaching staff are doing there jobs properly.

And yet it doesn’t work. Proven not to work actually

It’s quite strange actually because the guys with history of load management and minutes restrictions are the guys who still keep getting hurt. These same guys are missing whole seasons and playoffs year after year

[HEZI]

The Minny and Bulls teams might have won more if they weren't injured...we should have advanced past Indy last year if we weren't injured.

I know you don't want to shoulder any injury blame on thibs but it still seems to be a common theme with his teams. He does need to shoulder some of that blame.

This is scapegoating. No coach has been able to prevent injuries because they are simply part of the game

Not to sound all wise and chit but I think both are partly true.

I do think some injuries are simply basketball related. Were Derrick Rose's knees a ticking time bomb? I believe so. If it wasn't that game 1 against Philly, he would have blown out his knee another evening. Randle's injury last season was a classic basketball accident - one Thibs had no control over. And as you say, injuries are a part of the game, and a lot of championships are won because other teams suffered injuries.

But I think it's also fair to point out that Thibs can be unwise with his minutes. He brought back OG last year and had him play over 35 minutes in his second game back and 33 in his third game back - he missed the next 9 games because he wasn't ready. Mitch got hurt last year because he came back without having fully recovered from his initial injury. My point is, Thibs isn't maximizing his chances with the way he manages minutes, and has a tendency to put his team at risk of falling on the unluckier side of its destiny.

Just pulling the starters with 5 minutes left when they're up 30 and the other team has waved the white flag would already help us all breathe a bit more easy. Leaving them in the game in those situations is totally unnecessary and frankly quite absurd, yet he seems hellbent on proving some point that resonates with no one but him.

How did Thibs bring OG back? How did Thibs make him not ready? See this is what I mean, Thibs is a coach not part of the medical staff. If OG wasn’t ready he shouldn’t have been cleared to play. If he needed to be on a certain minutes restriction he should have been issued that from the medical staff. Thibs is a coach not part of the medical team. He’s going to play who is available to play. He’s not responsible for guys health. You got millions of dollars invested in trainers and medical staff responsible for that. But again the coach is the easiest target to scapegoat so that’s why he gets the blame because those who don’t know what is going on have to blame someone.

[NoLayupRule]

damn

that was fun to watch

[HEZI]

Half of the bench is injured and that’s guys who don’t even average 30 mpg. Maybe if the bench could stay healthy then the starters would play less. Is Thibs wearing out his bench by not playing them enough or too much? Make it make sense

[mpharris36]

Hezi, this is my career. I’m a sports physical therapist. Mp makes valid points here.

I am no doctor but you have people review medicals do testing on these players probably on a daily basis. Load management and minutes restrictions weren't just pulled out of thin air...years and years of research was provided to teams and organization about keeping players healthy.

Now that doesn't mean you can't do everything right and a player take a wrong step or fall and an injury can't happen. There are no absolutes with the human body and sports. Guys with the best pitching form can get Tommy John surgery...but just because its "happen stance" doesn't mean especially during a regular season game teams will throw a pitcher on 3 days rest or 120 pitches because there is science behind that much wear and tear.

Players are bigger and stronger and faster so you are going to have more injuries.

All I'm saying Thibs is a foundation builder. I appreciate his attention to detail and his win at all cost mode most of the time. He does get tend to get overwhelmed with the smaller picture like winning a game vs CHI in NOV and playing an injury prone player like OG 40 mins when that is a ridiculous decision with his history.

I dont' even get on him for Mikal because his body type and the way he plays is probably ok to give him extensive minutes but a choppy more start and stop player like OG...KAT those guys need more attention and he needs to be reigned in at times.

If you treat every injury as happen stance I don't think the medical staff or coaching staff are doing there jobs properly.

And yet it doesn’t work. Proven not to work actually

It’s quite strange actually because the guys with history of load management and minutes restrictions are the guys who still keep getting hurt. These same guys are missing whole seasons and playoffs year after year

Yes there are injury prone players but everyone is not the same and that doesn't prove a point....but if it has proven not to work why not play all your best players 48 mins and then?

Why do they take starters out pitching a good game because of a pitch limit

Why do NFL teams not play there starters in the preseason if an injury can happen at anytime regardless.

Why do teams take there starters out when the game is decided?

[mpharris36]

Half of the bench is injured and that’s guys who don’t even average 30 mpg. Maybe if the bench could stay healthy then the starters would play less. Is Thibs wearing out his bench by not playing them enough or too much? Make it make sense

maybe Precious shouldn't have played the entire 2nd half of the preseason game where he played 35 mins and then he ended up being hurt the following game because maybe his body couldn't recover in enough time.

Do we know for certain what caused it? No but maybe don't play a player for 24 straight minutes in the 2nd half of a preseason game.

[HEZI]

I am no doctor but you have people review medicals do testing on these players probably on a daily basis. Load management and minutes restrictions weren't just pulled out of thin air...years and years of research was provided to teams and organization about keeping players healthy.

Now that doesn't mean you can't do everything right and a player take a wrong step or fall and an injury can't happen. There are no absolutes with the human body and sports. Guys with the best pitching form can get Tommy John surgery...but just because its "happen stance" doesn't mean especially during a regular season game teams will throw a pitcher on 3 days rest or 120 pitches because there is science behind that much wear and tear.

Players are bigger and stronger and faster so you are going to have more injuries.

All I'm saying Thibs is a foundation builder. I appreciate his attention to detail and his win at all cost mode most of the time. He does get tend to get overwhelmed with the smaller picture like winning a game vs CHI in NOV and playing an injury prone player like OG 40 mins when that is a ridiculous decision with his history.

I dont' even get on him for Mikal because his body type and the way he plays is probably ok to give him extensive minutes but a choppy more start and stop player like OG...KAT those guys need more attention and he needs to be reigned in at times.

If you treat every injury as happen stance I don't think the medical staff or coaching staff are doing there jobs properly.

And yet it doesn’t work. Proven not to work actually

It’s quite strange actually because the guys with history of load management and minutes restrictions are the guys who still keep getting hurt. These same guys are missing whole seasons and playoffs year after year

Yes there are injury prone players but everyone is not the same and that doesn't prove a point....but if it has proven not to work why not play all your best players 48 mins and then?

Why do they take starters out pitching a good game because of a pitch limit

Why do NFL teams not play there starters in the preseason if an injury can happen at anytime regardless.

Why do teams take there starters out when the game is decided?

Because players get tired, now you are getting into fatigue and conditioning aspect of it which is a different topic. Nobody is saying play them 48 minutes, of course you want guys to be able to have energy down the stretch and close out games. That part of it I totally understand so if that was the argument then we can certainly address it

[HEZI]

Half of the bench is injured and that’s guys who don’t even average 30 mpg. Maybe if the bench could stay healthy then the starters would play less. Is Thibs wearing out his bench by not playing them enough or too much? Make it make sense

maybe Precious shouldn't have played the entire 2nd half of the preseason game where he played 35 mins and then he ended up being hurt the following game because maybe his body couldn't recover in enough time.

Do we know for certain what caused it? No but maybe don't play a player for 24 straight minutes in the 2nd half of a preseason game.

But the starters can and are still going. You are just proving my point

[mpharris36]

And yet it doesn’t work. Proven not to work actually

It’s quite strange actually because the guys with history of load management and minutes restrictions are the guys who still keep getting hurt. These same guys are missing whole seasons and playoffs year after year

Yes there are injury prone players but everyone is not the same and that doesn't prove a point....but if it has proven not to work why not play all your best players 48 mins and then?

Why do they take starters out pitching a good game because of a pitch limit

Why do NFL teams not play there starters in the preseason if an injury can happen at anytime regardless.

Why do teams take there starters out when the game is decided?

Because players get tired, now you are getting into fatigue and conditioning aspect of it which is a different topic. Nobody is saying play them 48 minutes, of course you want guys to be able to have energy down the stretch and close out games. That part of it I totally understand so if that was the argument then we can certainly address it

So fatigue can potentially cause more injuries?

[Parraknick]

And yet it doesn’t work. Proven not to work actually

It’s quite strange actually because the guys with history of load management and minutes restrictions are the guys who still keep getting hurt. These same guys are missing whole seasons and playoffs year after year

Yes there are injury prone players but everyone is not the same and that doesn't prove a point....but if it has proven not to work why not play all your best players 48 mins and then?

Why do they take starters out pitching a good game because of a pitch limit

Why do NFL teams not play there starters in the preseason if an injury can happen at anytime regardless.

Why do teams take there starters out when the game is decided?

Because players get tired, now you are getting into fatigue and conditioning aspect of it which is a different topic. Nobody is saying play them 48 minutes, of course you want guys to be able to have energy down the stretch and close out games. That part of it I totally understand so if that was the argument then we can certainly address it

The following statements are all true.

1. Injuries happen in a variety of ways and some cannot be predicted
2. Athletes make poorer decisions under fatigue and this can lead to injury
3. All humans have different physiology and predisposition to injury. Two athletes can be exposed to the same stresses and have vastly different experiences
4. Injuries often occur when there is a distinct change in load. This is more likely to be in the soft tissue direction
5. There is a greater risk of injury when the duration of the activity increases


I understand what you are saying but the science is clear here. It’s essentially like the idea of wearing a seat belt in a car. It doesn’t mean you cannot die in a road accident, but it does statistically help your chances.

[mpharris36]

Half of the bench is injured and that’s guys who don’t even average 30 mpg. Maybe if the bench could stay healthy then the starters would play less. Is Thibs wearing out his bench by not playing them enough or too much? Make it make sense

maybe Precious shouldn't have played the entire 2nd half of the preseason game where he played 35 mins and then he ended up being hurt the following game because maybe his body couldn't recover in enough time.

Do we know for certain what caused it? No but maybe don't play a player for 24 straight minutes in the 2nd half of a preseason game.

But the starters can and are still going. You are just proving my point

your speaking in absolutes man. Just because a player makes it out of a game injury free playing way more minutes then he should doesn't mean its still the right decision. It also doesn't mean it wont have lasting effects on him potentially getting injured down the road.

A player nursing another injury can play through something and favor another part of his body which can cause another injury down the road.

All this stuff is related.

Its like if a guy plays 40 minutes for 4 straight games...but then get injured in the first 3 minutes of the next game. Your going to be like see he got hurt in minute 3 see I was right he didn't get hurt when he was playing 40 minutes. And I'm saying its all related if the body doesn't have enough time to recover from strenuous activity and force you are more susceptible to injuries.

Each player is different.

Thibs isn't free from criticism just as a player isn't free from criticism if they aren't performing or struggling in a certain area.

[K_ick_God]

Josh is an amazing player and I don’t care

[HEZI]

Yes there are injury prone players but everyone is not the same and that doesn't prove a point....but if it has proven not to work why not play all your best players 48 mins and then?

Why do they take starters out pitching a good game because of a pitch limit

Why do NFL teams not play there starters in the preseason if an injury can happen at anytime regardless.

Why do teams take there starters out when the game is decided?

Because players get tired, now you are getting into fatigue and conditioning aspect of it which is a different topic. Nobody is saying play them 48 minutes, of course you want guys to be able to have energy down the stretch and close out games. That part of it I totally understand so if that was the argument then we can certainly address it

So fatigue can potentially cause more injuries?

Dunking the ball can cause more injuries, blocking a shot can cause injuries, running up and down the court can cause injuries. So are you saying players should stop dunking and blocking shots, stop cutting hard or running hard? You see how ridiculous this is starting to sound? It’s a contact sport and injuries happen so putting all this responsibility of players health on a coach is absurd

[SelbyCobra]

I've said it a million times both before and after the trade, but KAT is one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the history of NBA basketball. Just looking at their career production, pairing him with a pretty efficient high-volume PG and other efficient players should lead to this kind of production if it isn't completely botched. But it's still jarring to see as Knicks fans, because we are decidedly not used to this level of excellence.

Crazy part is, KAT is averaging career highs in both ppg and TS, yet is playing the 3rd-least mpg of his career (career high mpg seasons were both years Thibs was his HC in Minny lol)

Yeah, I think the potential for there to be more to unlock in a guy already established as an historically efficient multi-level scorer is why some people were in on the idea of pairing a guy like Brunson with KAT, despite all his obvious short-comings and/or undesirables. They just fit together both in play style and team-focused skills/mentality.

I do wonder though how much the knee scare slowed the minutes down, because leading up to it, coach was really starting to put KAT on the Thibs diet. He started him off slow, easing him in, then 5 games before the knee injury he played him 38, 32, 39, 38, and 39 minutes. He sat the two games with the bruise, then has come back on a lesser 30, 25, 34 sequence.

But it's insane just how consistently good he is at simply putting the ball through the hoop. One of the craziest parts of the experience so far is cheering for a team whose center is a 7 footer that can take the ball in the paint, bang with opposing defenders, bully his way to the rim, get physically assaulted into a heap on the floor, get up, walk to the line...

...and be the best FT shooter on the team.

[HEZI]

Yes there are injury prone players but everyone is not the same and that doesn't prove a point....but if it has proven not to work why not play all your best players 48 mins and then?

Why do they take starters out pitching a good game because of a pitch limit

Why do NFL teams not play there starters in the preseason if an injury can happen at anytime regardless.

Why do teams take there starters out when the game is decided?

Because players get tired, now you are getting into fatigue and conditioning aspect of it which is a different topic. Nobody is saying play them 48 minutes, of course you want guys to be able to have energy down the stretch and close out games. That part of it I totally understand so if that was the argument then we can certainly address it

The following statements are all true.

1. Injuries happen in a variety of ways and some cannot be predicted
2. Athletes make poorer decisions under fatigue and this can lead to injury
3. All humans have different physiology and predisposition to injury. Two athletes can be exposed to the same stresses and have vastly different experiences
4. Injuries often occur when there is a distinct change in load. This is more likely to be in the soft tissue direction
5. There is a greater risk of injury when the duration of the activity increases


I understand what you are saying but the science is clear here. It’s essentially like the idea of wearing a seat belt in a car. It doesn’t mean you cannot die in a road accident, but it does statistically help your chances.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. You are talking about life and death risk vs a professional athlete playing a non combat contact sport. It’s not even MMA it’s basketball. They hoop. You know players communicate with trainers and if they don’t feel good to go they don’t play that night. That’s the nature of the sport. When available to play they play. It’s not some crazy science behind it

[Chanel Bomber]

This is scapegoating. No coach has been able to prevent injuries because they are simply part of the game

Not to sound all wise and chit but I think both are partly true.

I do think some injuries are simply basketball related. Were Derrick Rose's knees a ticking time bomb? I believe so. If it wasn't that game 1 against Philly, he would have blown out his knee another evening. Randle's injury last season was a classic basketball accident - one Thibs had no control over. And as you say, injuries are a part of the game, and a lot of championships are won because other teams suffered injuries.

But I think it's also fair to point out that Thibs can be unwise with his minutes. He brought back OG last year and had him play over 35 minutes in his second game back and 33 in his third game back - he missed the next 9 games because he wasn't ready. Mitch got hurt last year because he came back without having fully recovered from his initial injury. My point is, Thibs isn't maximizing his chances with the way he manages minutes, and has a tendency to put his team at risk of falling on the unluckier side of its destiny.

Just pulling the starters with 5 minutes left when they're up 30 and the other team has waved the white flag would already help us all breathe a bit more easy. Leaving them in the game in those situations is totally unnecessary and frankly quite absurd, yet he seems hellbent on proving some point that resonates with no one but him.

How did Thibs bring OG back? How did Thibs make him not ready? See this is what I mean, Thibs is a coach not part of the medical staff. If OG wasn’t ready he shouldn’t have been cleared to play. If he needed to be on a certain minutes restriction he should have been issued that from the medical staff. Thibs is a coach not part of the medical team. He’s going to play who is available to play. He’s not responsible for guys health. You got millions of dollars invested in trainers and medical staff responsible for that. But again the coach is the easiest target to scapegoat so that’s why he gets the blame because those who don’t know what is going on have to blame someone.

I've always said the medical staff needs a new position that serves as an intermediary between the medical staff the coaching staff. Because we've seen this movie too many times in the last few years.

But an experienced coach like Thibs should know better. We know OG's brittle. To play him 35 minutes in his second game back was entirely unwise. This is not about scapegoating Thibs - I've defended him plenty - it's about expecting an adult in a managerial position to be reasonable. On that specific topic, he hasn't been.

And yes a coach is partly responsible for his players' health as well. All players want to play and it's a coach's responsibility to protect them from themselves when needed.

[Parraknick]

Because players get tired, now you are getting into fatigue and conditioning aspect of it which is a different topic. Nobody is saying play them 48 minutes, of course you want guys to be able to have energy down the stretch and close out games. That part of it I totally understand so if that was the argument then we can certainly address it

The following statements are all true.

1. Injuries happen in a variety of ways and some cannot be predicted
2. Athletes make poorer decisions under fatigue and this can lead to injury
3. All humans have different physiology and predisposition to injury. Two athletes can be exposed to the same stresses and have vastly different experiences
4. Injuries often occur when there is a distinct change in load. This is more likely to be in the soft tissue direction
5. There is a greater risk of injury when the duration of the activity increases


I understand what you are saying but the science is clear here. It’s essentially like the idea of wearing a seat belt in a car. It doesn’t mean you cannot die in a road accident, but it does statistically help your chances.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. You are talking about life and death risk vs a professional athlete playing a non combat contact sport. It’s not even MMA it’s basketball. They hoop. You know players communicate with trainers and if they don’t feel good to go they don’t play that night. That’s the nature of the sport. When available to play they play. It’s not some crazy science behind it

As I mentioned, I work in sports science and rehabilitation. I’m not just throwing out random opinions.

But I can see we’ve reached the point where I won’t be able to convince you. So I’ll leave it now.

Have a good evening!