PG: Knicks vs Suns- 11/21/24

[HEZI]

maybe Precious shouldn't have played the entire 2nd half of the preseason game where he played 35 mins and then he ended up being hurt the following game because maybe his body couldn't recover in enough time.

Do we know for certain what caused it? No but maybe don't play a player for 24 straight minutes in the 2nd half of a preseason game.

But the starters can and are still going. You are just proving my point

your speaking in absolutes man. Just because a player makes it out of a game injury free playing way more minutes then he should doesn't mean its still the right decision. It also doesn't mean it wont have lasting effects on him potentially getting injured down the road.

A player nursing another injury can play through something and favor another part of his body which can cause another injury down the road.

All this stuff is related.

Its like if a guy plays 40 minutes for 4 straight games...but then get injured in the first 3 minutes of the next game. Your going to be like see he got hurt in minute 3 see I was right he didn't get hurt when he was playing 40 minutes. And I'm saying its all related if the body doesn't have enough time to recover from strenuous activity and force you are more susceptible to injuries.

Each player is different.

Thibs isn't free from criticism just as a player isn't free from criticism if they aren't performing or struggling in a certain area.

So why are you ok with players playing 30 mpg? Why should they not play 25mpg? 30 mpg puts players at a higher risk of injury so why are they playing 30 mpg? Have you seen the injuries around the league? Clearly it’s not a Thibs problem. So are all the coaches overplaying their players? Is it the trainers?

[HEZI]

Not to sound all wise and chit but I think both are partly true.

I do think some injuries are simply basketball related. Were Derrick Rose's knees a ticking time bomb? I believe so. If it wasn't that game 1 against Philly, he would have blown out his knee another evening. Randle's injury last season was a classic basketball accident - one Thibs had no control over. And as you say, injuries are a part of the game, and a lot of championships are won because other teams suffered injuries.

But I think it's also fair to point out that Thibs can be unwise with his minutes. He brought back OG last year and had him play over 35 minutes in his second game back and 33 in his third game back - he missed the next 9 games because he wasn't ready. Mitch got hurt last year because he came back without having fully recovered from his initial injury. My point is, Thibs isn't maximizing his chances with the way he manages minutes, and has a tendency to put his team at risk of falling on the unluckier side of its destiny.

Just pulling the starters with 5 minutes left when they're up 30 and the other team has waved the white flag would already help us all breathe a bit more easy. Leaving them in the game in those situations is totally unnecessary and frankly quite absurd, yet he seems hellbent on proving some point that resonates with no one but him.

How did Thibs bring OG back? How did Thibs make him not ready? See this is what I mean, Thibs is a coach not part of the medical staff. If OG wasn’t ready he shouldn’t have been cleared to play. If he needed to be on a certain minutes restriction he should have been issued that from the medical staff. Thibs is a coach not part of the medical team. He’s going to play who is available to play. He’s not responsible for guys health. You got millions of dollars invested in trainers and medical staff responsible for that. But again the coach is the easiest target to scapegoat so that’s why he gets the blame because those who don’t know what is going on have to blame someone.

I've always said the medical staff needs a new position that serves as an intermediary between the medical staff the coaching staff. Because we've seen this movie too many times in the last few years.

But an experienced coach like Thibs should know better. We know OG's brittle. To play him 35 minutes in his second game back was entirely unwise. This is not about scapegoating Thibs - I've defended him plenty - it's about expecting an adult in a managerial position to be reasonable. On that specific topic, he hasn't been.

And yes a coach is partly responsible for his players' health as well. All players want to play and it's a coach's responsibility to protect them from themselves when needed.

We didn’t give up the assets for OG for him to be a 25 mpg brittle part time starter. We also didn’t pay him 200 mil to be that either. He plays hard, Thibs coaches hard. We praise the player for playing hard but put down the coach for coaching hard. I’ll give credit to both because they both deserve it

[SelbyCobra]

I think in order to give yourself the best chance to have success in the playoffs you do have to position yourself towards the higher seed so Thibs will do that and then still catch heat for it. Yes he’s trying to win every game because every game does matter when it comes to playoff seeding and your ultimate success could very much come down to your seeding and the matchups you get throughout the playoffs. Thibs has the experience he’s been here before many times he’s aware of that and that’s what he aims for every year.

Thibs' experience of being there before can be quantified in this conversation.

Four times in his coaching career he's pushed a team to 50 regular season wins.

None of those teams made the NBA Finals, only one even made the Conference Finals where they produced a grand total of 1 win.

I agree that seeding can be very important, but historically it has never produced any benefit to a team led by Tom Thibodeau, despite him laying everything on the line in its pursuit.

Which one of those teams underachieved? He pretty much got the best out of those groups and they went as far as the roster was going to go. Bulls not being able to overcome Lebron and the Cheat isn’t on Thibs. Nobody in the East was getting passed them. The young pup Timberwolves being in the Western Conference and not ready to hang with the big boys of the West at that time wasn’t on Thibs. There are coaches who have gotten further than Thibs that I would never want coaching this team so this point is pretty weak imo

I guess I see it the other way - there is nothing about Thibs entire playoff resume that says to me, "just let him cook because he knows how to position his team the best way for playoff success".

Thibs has coached teams to the playoffs in 9 seasons, and his career postseason record is 38-47 (.447). His 9 playoff appearances look like this:

2011: East #1 seed, eliminated in the Conference Finals
2012: East #1 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2013: East #5 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round
2014: East #4 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2015: East #3 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round
2018: West #8 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2021: East #4 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2023: East #5 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round
2024: East #2 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round

He has never made the Finals, and has one career win in the Conference Finals. He has not had a single sustained playoff run. He has not had a team that over achieved or pulled a surprise upset as the underdog, but he has coached multiple teams that were eliminated as the favorite in their series.

I fully accept and understand that this Knicks team could win a championship with him as the head coach - he definitely brings some positive attributes to the table - but I don't see anything to indicate that he somehow knows what he's doing in, or has an intrinsic understanding of how to navigate through, the NBA playoffs. If anything, the evidence suggests the opposite to me.

[aggo]

Read on Twitter

[HEZI]

Thibs' experience of being there before can be quantified in this conversation.

Four times in his coaching career he's pushed a team to 50 regular season wins.

None of those teams made the NBA Finals, only one even made the Conference Finals where they produced a grand total of 1 win.

I agree that seeding can be very important, but historically it has never produced any benefit to a team led by Tom Thibodeau, despite him laying everything on the line in its pursuit.

Which one of those teams underachieved? He pretty much got the best out of those groups and they went as far as the roster was going to go. Bulls not being able to overcome Lebron and the Cheat isn’t on Thibs. Nobody in the East was getting passed them. The young pup Timberwolves being in the Western Conference and not ready to hang with the big boys of the West at that time wasn’t on Thibs. There are coaches who have gotten further than Thibs that I would never want coaching this team so this point is pretty weak imo

I guess I see it the other way - there is nothing about Thibs entire playoff resume that says to me, "just let him cook because he knows how to position his team the best way for playoff success".

Thibs has coached teams to the playoffs in 9 seasons, and his career postseason record is 38-47 (.447). His 9 playoff appearances look like this:

2011: East #1 seed, eliminated in the Conference Finals
2012: East #1 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2013: East #5 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round
2014: East #4 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2015: East #3 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round
2018: West #8 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2021: East #4 seed, eliminated in the 1st round
2023: East #5 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round
2024: East #2 seed, eliminated in the 2nd round

He has never made the Finals, and has one career win in the Conference Finals. He has not had a single sustained playoff run. He has not had a team that over achieved or pulled a surprise upset as the underdog, but he has coached multiple teams that were eliminated as the favorite in their series.

I fully accept and understand that this Knicks team could win a championship with him as the head coach - he definitely brings some positive attributes to the table - but I don't see anything to indicate that he somehow knows what he's doing in, or has an intrinsic understanding of how to navigate through, the NBA playoffs. If anything, the evidence suggests the opposite to me.

The best team he ever had was with MVP Rose and they just were not good enough to beat Lebron and the Heat. Nobody in the East was. Similar to Pat Riley with the Knicks. Never good enough to beat Jordan and the Bulls. It took MJ retiring for us to barely beat them in the 2nd round. If MJ doesn’t retire, no ECF appearance and certainly no Finals appearance which would have completely changed Riley’s legacy in New York. Thibs Bulls never lost a serious they should have won. Same with Thibs and the Knicks the last few years. Knicks two years ago certainly over achieved and got further than expected. Cavs were favored to win the series and we mopped the floor with them. He needs to fail with great players in order for me to say he’s not the right man for the job. Hasn’t failed yet so no reason to believe he will unless you are just praying on his downfall

[F N 11]

thibs certainly isn't telling Brunson/KAT how to play offense. H

Thibs job is to adj his defensive drop coverage and try to make us a league avg or slightly league avg defense.

We just moved to 2nd best offense in the league jumping past BOS. So we are a legit championship contender if we just get the defense to slightly better than league avg.

This

[F N 11]

I’ve never seen a Thibs team underachieve. He usually gets the best out of his team and sometimes they even overachieve but I don’t remember his teams underachieving.

For a guy who was said to be holding us back because we didn’t come out the gate firing on all cylinders he sure has us speeding down the interstate right now. Props to Thibs man, he’s part of this culture he’s helped build this he deserves credit. We aren’t where we are now without him.

Thibs still average y’all can be high off the euphoria.

[F N 11]

Half of the bench is injured and that’s guys who don’t even average 30 mpg. Maybe if the bench could stay healthy then the starters would play less. Is Thibs wearing out his bench by not playing them enough or too much? Make it make sense

maybe Precious shouldn't have played the entire 2nd half of the preseason game where he played 35 mins and then he ended up being hurt the following game because maybe his body couldn't recover in enough time.

Do we know for certain what caused it? No but maybe don't play a player for 24 straight minutes in the 2nd half of a preseason game.

The excuses is crazy. Thibs has to do better in many aspects.

[Knicks Byke]

Its not even all on Thibs. last few coaches won because of their players being all time greats.

and those coaches are trash now except maybe Kerr.

[Context]

guys....guys...guys...
hold off on the thibs discussion...
check out what I found...Brunson and Oneal have beef going back to the mav days...

Watch on YouTube

[Jalen Bluntson]

guys....guys...guys...
hold off on the thibs discussion...
check out what I found...Brunson and Oneal have beef going back to the mav days...

Watch on YouTube

We need Sims to handle that business next game! Lay that punk out flat!

[Gravy]

Its not even all on Thibs. last few coaches won because of their players being all time greats.

and those coaches are trash now except maybe Kerr.

It usually comes down to the players. How many times can you say a guy coached their way to a championship with much less talent on the roster than the other contenders. Objectively is our roster the best in the league where you can say we should win a championship?

With the Knicks it seems like players we have are better here than where they were previously, Brunson, Randle, Ihart, JHart, KAT, Precious, DDV etc. Is that pure coincidence or coaching? Thibs is expected to win a title with guys that were never considered number one options before they got here.

[ctorres]

We didn’t give up the assets for OG for him to be a 25 mpg brittle part time starter. We also didn’t pay him 200 mil to be that either. He plays hard, Thibs coaches hard. We praise the player for playing hard but put down the coach for coaching hard. I’ll give credit to both because they both deserve it

OG is the 31st highest paid player in the NBA at $36.6 million. Next year his salary jumps to $39.6 million, but he should remain relatively in the same rank among salaries.

He is 15th in minutes per game this season.

We are definitely paying OG to be in the role he is at.

OG did not sign up to be a 25 mpg and 13 ppg role player. He took Randle's spot and now OG is one of the best power forwards in the league. Over the last 7 games, OG is averaging 20 and 7 as the 3rd option on the team. In our eyes he is Kawhi-lite. In his mind, he's trying to be better than Kawhi. At 27 years old, this is OG's chance to take the next step.

At best we could be doing like Cleveland and monitoring our starters to play 29-31 mpg if McBride, Robinson, and Achiuwa were all healthy.

[HarthorneWingo]

Read on Twitter

To put this week’s Knicks offensive outburst in context, it happen against the Nets (x2) in back-to-back games in Madison Square Garden, the crappy Cheese Wiz, and a Suns team without KD and Beal. Please calm down everyone.

[NiceLikeChrist]

Read on Twitter

To put this week’s Knicks offensive outburst in context, it happen against the Nets (x2) in back-to-back games in Madison Square Garden, the crappy Cheese Wiz, and a Suns team without KD and Beal. Please calm down everyone.

We’re gonna put up another 130 against the worst defense in the league tomorrow night and people will want to extend thibs til he’s 80

[Jalen Bluntson]

Read on Twitter

To put this week’s Knicks offensive outburst in context, it happen against the Nets (x2) in back-to-back games in Madison Square Garden, the crappy Cheese Wiz, and a Suns team without KD and Beal. Please calm down everyone.

We’re gonna put up another 130 against the worst defense in the league tomorrow night and people will want to extend thibs til he’s 80

Jesus. People can't just enjoy wins around here? That sig is aging like milk in the desert.

[Fury]

Read on Twitter

To put this week’s Knicks offensive outburst in context, it happen against the Nets (x2) in back-to-back games in Madison Square Garden, the crappy Cheese Wiz, and a Suns team without KD and Beal. Please calm down everyone.

We’re gonna put up another 130 against the worst defense in the league tomorrow night and people will want to extend thibs til he’s 80

[DOT]

He has never made the Finals, and has one career win in the Conference Finals. He has not had a single sustained playoff run. He has not had a team that over achieved or pulled a surprise upset as the underdog, but he has coached multiple teams that were eliminated as the favorite in their series.

Thibs has as many series wins against teams with losing records as he does against teams with 50+ wins

At one each, with the win against the 50-win team being the Cavs in 2023

If we make it teams with a .500 or worse record, he has 2 series wins against those teams

I've had this argument before, yeah sure you can argue he ran into some brick walls, but that's kind of the point. What separates a good coach from a great coach is the ability to elevate a team. If you're only ever as good as your players, you're not a great coach.

[stuporman]

Half of the bench is injured and that’s guys who don’t even average 30 mpg. Maybe if the bench could stay healthy then the starters would play less. Is Thibs wearing out his bench by not playing them enough or too much? Make it make sense

Just the mere presence of Thibs is enough to hurt a player, he's like a magical amulet that instead of preserving one's health, it hurts them so it's more like voodoo. Thibs is the ultimate voodoo doll and is so strong of magic that he hurts players on other teams. Fans around the league are even afraid to say his name 3 times or it might injure their players.

[Wildcat]

Just reading/listening about this Royce O'Neale cheap shots on Jalen. What's the back story on that? Lots of weird cheap shots from some scrub.