PG: Knicks vs Suns- 11/21/24

[JayTWill]

I’ve never seen a Thibs team underachieve. He usually gets the best out of his team and sometimes they even overachieve but I don’t remember his teams underachieving.

For a guy who was said to be holding us back because we didn’t come out the gate firing on all cylinders he sure has us speeding down the interstate right now. Props to Thibs man, he’s part of this culture he’s helped build this he deserves credit. We aren’t where we are now without him.

Question.... If Thibs is given credit for the regular season success of his teams shouldn't be given blame for the postseason failures of his teams? In 2011 he was given his first coach of the year award for the regular season success which included sweeping the Heat. Shouldn't he take some blame when he loses 4-1 to the same team in the postseason?

The same thing happened in 2021. Won the coach of the year award. Swept the Hawks in the regular season. Was eliminated pretty easily as the higher seed in 5 games by the Hawks in the first round.

2023 - 3-1 against the Heat in the regular season. Lost in 6 to the Heat who were a play-in team.

He has a .576 regular season winning percentage. He has a .447 postseason winning percentage. How has he not underachieved with his teams in the postseason? Clearly his regular season success is not directly translating to the postseason for some reason.

[sol537]

I'd wager most coaches have a better regular season record than their playoff record.

The truth is Thibs never had true contending rosters in the playoffs expect for that CHI run but they ran into the Lebron buzzsaw. This is the year Thibs has to show his worth.

[HEZI]

I’ve never seen a Thibs team underachieve. He usually gets the best out of his team and sometimes they even overachieve but I don’t remember his teams underachieving.

For a guy who was said to be holding us back because we didn’t come out the gate firing on all cylinders he sure has us speeding down the interstate right now. Props to Thibs man, he’s part of this culture he’s helped build this he deserves credit. We aren’t where we are now without him.

Question.... If Thibs is given credit for the regular season success of his teams shouldn't be given blame for the postseason failures of his teams? In 2011 he was given his first coach of the year award for the regular season success which included sweeping the Heat. Shouldn't he take some blame when he loses 4-1 to the same team in the postseason?

The same thing happened in 2021. Won the coach of the year award. Swept the Hawks in the regular season. Was eliminated pretty easily as the higher seed in 5 games by the Hawks in the first round.

2023 - 3-1 against the Heat in the regular season. Lost in 6 to the Heat who were a play-in team.

He has a .576 regular season winning percentage. He has a .447 postseason winning percentage. How has he not underachieved with his teams in the postseason? Clearly his regular season success is not directly translating to the postseason for some reason.

I don’t think anybody can say they expected Bulls to beat Lebron and the Heat. That was never going to happen because Bulls were not built to defeat them in the postseason. Regular season is irrelevant when the offseason begins.

2021 the Knicks overachieved. They really had no business being a 4th seed with a 41 win record so the fact that they got that is impressive. East was hit with a bunch of injuries and a lot of teams were not healthy that year so that helped. Hawks still had the better player in that series and they won. Since then Hawks have changed their roster and head coach and gotten worse while Knicks still have Thibs and got better. You want their coach now?

2023 they lost to the Heat who went to the Finals. Heat built up steam at the right time and went through the entire conference and were rolling. They had the better team that year despite their regular season record. The fact that they beat all higher seeds speaks more about them that year than it does the Knicks.

[RHODEY]

I'd wager most coaches have a better regular season record than their playoff record.

The truth is Thibs never had true contending rosters in the playoffs expect for that CHI run but they ran into the Lebron buzzsaw. This is the year Thibs has to show his worth.

This team has a 3-4 year window. So I think if we make the conference finals that will count as a "success" for Thibs.

[JayTWill]

I’ve never seen a Thibs team underachieve. He usually gets the best out of his team and sometimes they even overachieve but I don’t remember his teams underachieving.

For a guy who was said to be holding us back because we didn’t come out the gate firing on all cylinders he sure has us speeding down the interstate right now. Props to Thibs man, he’s part of this culture he’s helped build this he deserves credit. We aren’t where we are now without him.

Question.... If Thibs is given credit for the regular season success of his teams shouldn't be given blame for the postseason failures of his teams? In 2011 he was given his first coach of the year award for the regular season success which included sweeping the Heat. Shouldn't he take some blame when he loses 4-1 to the same team in the postseason?

The same thing happened in 2021. Won the coach of the year award. Swept the Hawks in the regular season. Was eliminated pretty easily as the higher seed in 5 games by the Hawks in the first round.

2023 - 3-1 against the Heat in the regular season. Lost in 6 to the Heat who were a play-in team.

He has a .576 regular season winning percentage. He has a .447 postseason winning percentage. How has he not underachieved with his teams in the postseason? Clearly his regular season success is not directly translating to the postseason for some reason.

I don’t think anybody can say they expected Bulls to beat Lebron and the Heat. That was never going to happen because Bulls were not built to defeat them in the postseason. Regular season is irrelevant when the offseason begins.

2021 the Knicks overachieved. They really had no business being a 4th seed with a 41 win record so the fact that they got that is impressive. East was hit with a bunch of injuries and a lot of teams were not healthy that year so that helped. Hawks still had the better player in that series and they won. Since then Hawks have changed their roster and head coach and gotten worse while Knicks still have Thibs and got better. You want their coach now?

2023 they lost to the Heat who went to the Finals. Heat built up steam at the right time and went through the entire conference and were rolling. They had the better team that year despite their regular season record. The fact that they beat all higher seeds speaks more about them that year than it does the Knicks.

But how can you say regular season is irrelevant when the off-season begins if most of the praise Thibs receives is based on his regular season success? You just praised him for how well the team is performing to start the season and i'm not even sure what their signature victory of the early season is. They have beat up on some pretty bad teams and lost to the few good teams they have faced.

I was a fan of Rose and those Bulls teams. Most people did not expect them to lose in 5 and struggle every 4th quarter. And that Lebron team lost to the Mavs another team that Thibs swept that year. The Heat also lost to an ageing Spurs roster once and probably should have lost twice in the finals. I honestly doubt Thibs even gets those Spurs teams to the finals.

I looked up the poll a while back before game 1 of the Hawks series. Maybe 90% of the board had the Knicks winning that series and I believe maybe a couple people picked the Hawks in 5. The Knicks overachieved that year. So did the Hawks but one team's game plans was easier to stop in the postseason.

Is it possible that the Heat made that run that year because of how well coached the team was? If Thibs is given some credit for the regular season success he has to take some of the blame for the postseason failures too.

[JayTWill]

I'd wager most coaches have a better regular season record than their playoff record.

The truth is Thibs never had true contending rosters in the playoffs expect for that CHI run but they ran into the Lebron buzzsaw. This is the year Thibs has to show his worth.

Erik Spoelstra .587 regular season /.592 postseason
Steve Kerr .657/ .707
Popovich .627 / .599
Carlisle .531/ .473
Rivers .588/ .511
Thibs .575/ .447
McMillan .532/ .368

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_head_coaches_with_400_games_coached#List

The records don't paint the entire picture but he does have one the worst playoff records and biggest dropoffs from his regular season success of all of his contemporaries. Nate McMillan was one of the coaches I could find that had a worse dropoff and somehow he coached his team to an easy victory against Thibs in the playoffs.

All of Thibs postseason failures can't just be poor luck. With the majority of his postseason games coming as a higher seed I would expect better postseason success.

[HEZI]

Question.... If Thibs is given credit for the regular season success of his teams shouldn't be given blame for the postseason failures of his teams? In 2011 he was given his first coach of the year award for the regular season success which included sweeping the Heat. Shouldn't he take some blame when he loses 4-1 to the same team in the postseason?

The same thing happened in 2021. Won the coach of the year award. Swept the Hawks in the regular season. Was eliminated pretty easily as the higher seed in 5 games by the Hawks in the first round.

2023 - 3-1 against the Heat in the regular season. Lost in 6 to the Heat who were a play-in team.

He has a .576 regular season winning percentage. He has a .447 postseason winning percentage. How has he not underachieved with his teams in the postseason? Clearly his regular season success is not directly translating to the postseason for some reason.

I don’t think anybody can say they expected Bulls to beat Lebron and the Heat. That was never going to happen because Bulls were not built to defeat them in the postseason. Regular season is irrelevant when the offseason begins.

2021 the Knicks overachieved. They really had no business being a 4th seed with a 41 win record so the fact that they got that is impressive. East was hit with a bunch of injuries and a lot of teams were not healthy that year so that helped. Hawks still had the better player in that series and they won. Since then Hawks have changed their roster and head coach and gotten worse while Knicks still have Thibs and got better. You want their coach now?

2023 they lost to the Heat who went to the Finals. Heat built up steam at the right time and went through the entire conference and were rolling. They had the better team that year despite their regular season record. The fact that they beat all higher seeds speaks more about them that year than it does the Knicks.

But how can you say regular season is irrelevant when the off-season begins if most of the praise Thibs receives is based on his regular season success? You just praised him for how well the team is performing to start the season and i'm not even sure what their signature victory of the early season is. They have beat up on some pretty bad teams and lost to the few good teams they have faced.

I was a fan of Rose and those Bulls teams. Most people did not expect them to lose in 5 and struggle every 4th quarter. And that Lebron team lost to the Mavs another team that Thibs swept that year. The Heat also lost to an ageing Spurs roster once and probably should have lost twice in the finals. I honestly doubt Thibs even gets those Spurs teams to the finals.

I looked up the poll a while back before game 1 of the Hawks series. Maybe 90% of the board had the Knicks winning that series and I believe maybe a couple people picked the Hawks in 5. The Knicks overachieved that year. So did the Hawks but one team's game plans was easier to stop in the postseason.

Is it possible that the Heat made that run that year because of how well coached the team was? If Thibs is given some credit for the regular season success he has to take some of the blame for the postseason failures too.

Playoffs is like a whole new season and regular season is irrelevant. Just look at those Heat you mentioned, you say they have a great coach but that same coach had them as 8th seed last year and they got bounced in the 1st round and are struggling this year too. So one year a coach is good then he’s not good, which is it? Maybe it’s more about the actual matchups and even the players. You don’t put all the responsibility on the coach for a players struggles. Like Randle being awful in the postseason is not on Thibs, that’s just Randle folding like he always does. Or what about Bam Adebayo destroying Mitch in that series, really that’s why they won because we had no matchup for Bam. That’s not the coach that’s just one team having a superior player and us not having an answer for it. That’s what the playoffs are about, matchups. Sometimes you get matchups that favor you and other times they don’t. Sometimes a coach just simply has the advantage of being able to give a certain guy the ball and they make good things happen with it whereas some coaches just don’t. You mean Jason Kidd is a great coach because he can just sit back and let Luka and Kyrie pick apart the defense with their elite iso abilities? He made the finals now so he’s supposed to be some great coach? These guys constantly find themselves on the hot seat until something good finally happens all the way up until it longer does anymore then they are in the hot seat again. That’s why you have so many coaching changes, guys who are one year good then next year bad get shuffled around all the time. But most of the time it’s just bad roster construction and front offices have to make some change rather than admit their mistakes and be on the hot seat themselves. Knicks have finally assembled a team that could compete so we will see how things go. I don’t see them as the favorites but the conference is pretty wide open right now and they have given themselves a good chance to win. Sit back and relax and enjoy the journey

[Chanel Bomber]

How did Thibs bring OG back? How did Thibs make him not ready? See this is what I mean, Thibs is a coach not part of the medical staff. If OG wasn’t ready he shouldn’t have been cleared to play. If he needed to be on a certain minutes restriction he should have been issued that from the medical staff. Thibs is a coach not part of the medical team. He’s going to play who is available to play. He’s not responsible for guys health. You got millions of dollars invested in trainers and medical staff responsible for that. But again the coach is the easiest target to scapegoat so that’s why he gets the blame because those who don’t know what is going on have to blame someone.

I've always said the medical staff needs a new position that serves as an intermediary between the medical staff the coaching staff. Because we've seen this movie too many times in the last few years.

But an experienced coach like Thibs should know better. We know OG's brittle. To play him 35 minutes in his second game back was entirely unwise. This is not about scapegoating Thibs - I've defended him plenty - it's about expecting an adult in a managerial position to be reasonable. On that specific topic, he hasn't been.

And yes a coach is partly responsible for his players' health as well. All players want to play and it's a coach's responsibility to protect them from themselves when needed.

We didn’t give up the assets for OG for him to be a 25 mpg brittle part time starter. We also didn’t pay him 200 mil to be that either. He plays hard, Thibs coaches hard. We praise the player for playing hard but put down the coach for coaching hard. I’ll give credit to both because they both deserve it

I didn't say OG should play 25 mpg. I said closer to 30-32 mpg would be more reasonable. And no the Knicks didn't trade for OG to play 25 mpg, they traded him to be a contender. And you know what? They will not be a contender if he gets hurt and misses the playoffs because his body couldn't take a load that was too heavy for him. So as a brittle player with a track record of injury, managing his playing time seems imperative for achieving the objective for which they traded for him in the first place.

I don't even know who you're arguing against. I've given Thibs plenty of credit for his coaching, and I've defended his work on many fronts, including on some of the injuries that we suffered. I just don't defend him for everything.

Anyway, the notion that managing minutes is ridiculous and that coaches have no control whatsoever over player health has been debunked by numerous people in this thread, who all sound more reasonable than you on this specific issue.

[HEZI]

I've always said the medical staff needs a new position that serves as an intermediary between the medical staff the coaching staff. Because we've seen this movie too many times in the last few years.

But an experienced coach like Thibs should know better. We know OG's brittle. To play him 35 minutes in his second game back was entirely unwise. This is not about scapegoating Thibs - I've defended him plenty - it's about expecting an adult in a managerial position to be reasonable. On that specific topic, he hasn't been.

And yes a coach is partly responsible for his players' health as well. All players want to play and it's a coach's responsibility to protect them from themselves when needed.

We didn’t give up the assets for OG for him to be a 25 mpg brittle part time starter. We also didn’t pay him 200 mil to be that either. He plays hard, Thibs coaches hard. We praise the player for playing hard but put down the coach for coaching hard. I’ll give credit to both because they both deserve it

I didn't say OG should play 25 mpg. I said closer to 30-32 mpg would be more reasonable. And no the Knicks didn't trade for OG to play 25 mpg, they traded him to be a contender. And you know what? They will not be a contender if he gets hurt and misses the playoffs because his body couldn't take a load that was too heavy for him. So as a brittle player with a track record of injury, managing his playing time seems imperative for achieving the objective for which they traded for him in the first place.

I don't even know who you're arguing against. I've given Thibs plenty of credit for his coaching, and I've defended his work on many fronts, including on some of the injuries that we suffered. I just don't defend him for everything.

Anyway, the notion that managing minutes is ridiculous and that coaches have no control whatsoever over player health has been debunked by numerous people in this thread, who all sound more reasonable than you on this specific issue.

The difference between OG being healthy for a deep playoff run and his limbs coming off his body is 32 mpg instead of 35 mpg. Ok thank you so much Mr.Reasonable. For someone so brittle you sure he shouldn’t be at 25MPG? Where are you getting this 30-32 minutes per game Mr. Analytics? You did some numbers crunching and determined that 30-32 minutes is going to keep him healthy?

[JayTWill]

I don’t think anybody can say they expected Bulls to beat Lebron and the Heat. That was never going to happen because Bulls were not built to defeat them in the postseason. Regular season is irrelevant when the offseason begins.

2021 the Knicks overachieved. They really had no business being a 4th seed with a 41 win record so the fact that they got that is impressive. East was hit with a bunch of injuries and a lot of teams were not healthy that year so that helped. Hawks still had the better player in that series and they won. Since then Hawks have changed their roster and head coach and gotten worse while Knicks still have Thibs and got better. You want their coach now?

2023 they lost to the Heat who went to the Finals. Heat built up steam at the right time and went through the entire conference and were rolling. They had the better team that year despite their regular season record. The fact that they beat all higher seeds speaks more about them that year than it does the Knicks.

But how can you say regular season is irrelevant when the off-season begins if most of the praise Thibs receives is based on his regular season success? You just praised him for how well the team is performing to start the season and i'm not even sure what their signature victory of the early season is. They have beat up on some pretty bad teams and lost to the few good teams they have faced.

I was a fan of Rose and those Bulls teams. Most people did not expect them to lose in 5 and struggle every 4th quarter. And that Lebron team lost to the Mavs another team that Thibs swept that year. The Heat also lost to an ageing Spurs roster once and probably should have lost twice in the finals. I honestly doubt Thibs even gets those Spurs teams to the finals.

I looked up the poll a while back before game 1 of the Hawks series. Maybe 90% of the board had the Knicks winning that series and I believe maybe a couple people picked the Hawks in 5. The Knicks overachieved that year. So did the Hawks but one team's game plans was easier to stop in the postseason.

Is it possible that the Heat made that run that year because of how well coached the team was? If Thibs is given some credit for the regular season success he has to take some of the blame for the postseason failures too.

Playoffs is like a whole new season and regular season is irrelevant. Just look at those Heat you mentioned, you say they have a great coach but that same coach had them as 8th seed last year and they got bounced in the 1st round and are struggling this year too. So one year a coach is good then he’s not good, which is it? Maybe it’s more about the actual matchups and even the players. You don’t put all the responsibility on the coach for a players struggles. Like Randle being awful in the postseason is not on Thibs, that’s just Randle folding like he always does. Or what about Bam Adebayo destroying Mitch in that series, really that’s why they won because we had no matchup for Bam. That’s not the coach that’s just one team having a superior player and us not having an answer for it. That’s what the playoffs are about, matchups. Sometimes you get matchups that favor you and other times they don’t. Sometimes a coach just simply has the advantage of being able to give a certain guy the ball and they make good things happen with it whereas some coaches just don’t. You mean Jason Kidd is a great coach because he can just sit back and let Luka and Kyrie pick apart the defense with their elite iso abilities? He made the finals now so he’s supposed to be some great coach? These guys constantly find themselves on the hot seat until something good finally happens all the way up until it longer does anymore then they are in the hot seat again. That’s why you have so many coaching changes, guys who are one year good then next year bad get shuffled around all the time. But most of the time it’s just bad roster construction and front offices have to make some change rather than admit their mistakes and be on the hot seat themselves. Knicks have finally assembled a team that could compete so we will see how things go. I don’t see them as the favorites but the conference is pretty wide open right now and they have given themselves a good chance to win. Sit back and relax and enjoy the journey

If regular season success is irrelevant then Thibs coaching success is basically irrelevant. You can't just praise him for his successes and excuse his failures. You can't simply blame the losses in the postseason to a team having a better player like Bam. Most Knicks fans like to think Brunson was the best player in the series. If simply just having the best player on the court was enough LeBron should have won many more rings.

Players and coaching matter. If the Knicks lose again in the second round i'm sure some will still find a way to place no blame on Thibs. Just like Randle, Thibs needs to prove himself against the toughest competition competing at the highest level. Not just in the regular season against varying levels of talent with varying goals other than just winning that one game in front of them which seems to be Thibs biggest concern.

[HEZI]

But how can you say regular season is irrelevant when the off-season begins if most of the praise Thibs receives is based on his regular season success? You just praised him for how well the team is performing to start the season and i'm not even sure what their signature victory of the early season is. They have beat up on some pretty bad teams and lost to the few good teams they have faced.

I was a fan of Rose and those Bulls teams. Most people did not expect them to lose in 5 and struggle every 4th quarter. And that Lebron team lost to the Mavs another team that Thibs swept that year. The Heat also lost to an ageing Spurs roster once and probably should have lost twice in the finals. I honestly doubt Thibs even gets those Spurs teams to the finals.

I looked up the poll a while back before game 1 of the Hawks series. Maybe 90% of the board had the Knicks winning that series and I believe maybe a couple people picked the Hawks in 5. The Knicks overachieved that year. So did the Hawks but one team's game plans was easier to stop in the postseason.

Is it possible that the Heat made that run that year because of how well coached the team was? If Thibs is given some credit for the regular season success he has to take some of the blame for the postseason failures too.

Playoffs is like a whole new season and regular season is irrelevant. Just look at those Heat you mentioned, you say they have a great coach but that same coach had them as 8th seed last year and they got bounced in the 1st round and are struggling this year too. So one year a coach is good then he’s not good, which is it? Maybe it’s more about the actual matchups and even the players. You don’t put all the responsibility on the coach for a players struggles. Like Randle being awful in the postseason is not on Thibs, that’s just Randle folding like he always does. Or what about Bam Adebayo destroying Mitch in that series, really that’s why they won because we had no matchup for Bam. That’s not the coach that’s just one team having a superior player and us not having an answer for it. That’s what the playoffs are about, matchups. Sometimes you get matchups that favor you and other times they don’t. Sometimes a coach just simply has the advantage of being able to give a certain guy the ball and they make good things happen with it whereas some coaches just don’t. You mean Jason Kidd is a great coach because he can just sit back and let Luka and Kyrie pick apart the defense with their elite iso abilities? He made the finals now so he’s supposed to be some great coach? These guys constantly find themselves on the hot seat until something good finally happens all the way up until it longer does anymore then they are in the hot seat again. That’s why you have so many coaching changes, guys who are one year good then next year bad get shuffled around all the time. But most of the time it’s just bad roster construction and front offices have to make some change rather than admit their mistakes and be on the hot seat themselves. Knicks have finally assembled a team that could compete so we will see how things go. I don’t see them as the favorites but the conference is pretty wide open right now and they have given themselves a good chance to win. Sit back and relax and enjoy the journey

If regular season success is irrelevant then Thibs coaching success is basically irrelevant. You can't just praise him for his successes and excuse his failures. You can't simply blame the losses in the postseason to a team having a better player like Bam. Most Knicks fans like to think Brunson was the best player in the series. If simply just having the best player on the court was enough LeBron should have won many more rings.

Players and coaching matter. If the Knicks lose again in the second round i'm sure some will still find a way to place no blame on Thibs. Just like Randle, Thibs needs to prove himself against the toughest competition competing at the highest level. Not just in the regular season against varying levels of talent with varying goals other than just winning that one game in front of them which seems to be Thibs biggest concern.

You are struggling to follow. Regular season is irrelevant to the playoffs when comparing the two, not that regular season is irrelevant. You comparing who won in regular season to determine who will win in the playoffs shows me you probably haven’t been following the league long enough otherwise you would know it really doesn’t matter what was or wasn’t done in the regular season because when the playoffs start that’s a whole new season.

If you remember the actual series versus Miami you would remember Bam abusing Robinson and you would remember Julius Randle standing and watching their shooters shoot and do nothing and you would remember Brunson getting torched by the likes of Duncan Robinson and Max Strus. No it wasn’t Thibs coaching, it was the team just wasn’t good enough to beat Miami in that series. Simple as that. Oh but Spo is such a great coach, well look at them now, they added Rozier and lost some key pieces of that puzzle and team dynamic isn’t as good as that so now Spo looks basic and average. Why? His roster isn’t fitting right. Does he suck as coach now?

There is a difference between holding a coach accountable and scapegoating and putting the teams failures on him. Thibs has his flaws, just like players do and just like all the other coaches do. There is no perfect player or perfect coach. They all have flaws somewhere. So unless there is clearly a better coach out there waiting then why would we get rid of Thibs now before even seeing what the result will be with a roster that actually finally has realistic expectations of advancing past the 2nd round? Guess what, there is no better coach available right now

[JayTWill]

Playoffs is like a whole new season and regular season is irrelevant. Just look at those Heat you mentioned, you say they have a great coach but that same coach had them as 8th seed last year and they got bounced in the 1st round and are struggling this year too. So one year a coach is good then he’s not good, which is it? Maybe it’s more about the actual matchups and even the players. You don’t put all the responsibility on the coach for a players struggles. Like Randle being awful in the postseason is not on Thibs, that’s just Randle folding like he always does. Or what about Bam Adebayo destroying Mitch in that series, really that’s why they won because we had no matchup for Bam. That’s not the coach that’s just one team having a superior player and us not having an answer for it. That’s what the playoffs are about, matchups. Sometimes you get matchups that favor you and other times they don’t. Sometimes a coach just simply has the advantage of being able to give a certain guy the ball and they make good things happen with it whereas some coaches just don’t. You mean Jason Kidd is a great coach because he can just sit back and let Luka and Kyrie pick apart the defense with their elite iso abilities? He made the finals now so he’s supposed to be some great coach? These guys constantly find themselves on the hot seat until something good finally happens all the way up until it longer does anymore then they are in the hot seat again. That’s why you have so many coaching changes, guys who are one year good then next year bad get shuffled around all the time. But most of the time it’s just bad roster construction and front offices have to make some change rather than admit their mistakes and be on the hot seat themselves. Knicks have finally assembled a team that could compete so we will see how things go. I don’t see them as the favorites but the conference is pretty wide open right now and they have given themselves a good chance to win. Sit back and relax and enjoy the journey

If regular season success is irrelevant then Thibs coaching success is basically irrelevant. You can't just praise him for his successes and excuse his failures. You can't simply blame the losses in the postseason to a team having a better player like Bam. Most Knicks fans like to think Brunson was the best player in the series. If simply just having the best player on the court was enough LeBron should have won many more rings.

Players and coaching matter. If the Knicks lose again in the second round i'm sure some will still find a way to place no blame on Thibs. Just like Randle, Thibs needs to prove himself against the toughest competition competing at the highest level. Not just in the regular season against varying levels of talent with varying goals other than just winning that one game in front of them which seems to be Thibs biggest concern.

You are struggling to follow. Regular season is irrelevant to the playoffs when comparing the two, not that regular season is irrelevant. You comparing who won in regular season to determine who will win in the playoffs shows me you probably haven’t been following the league long enough otherwise you would know it really doesn’t matter what was or wasn’t done in the regular season because when the playoffs start that’s a whole new season.

If you remember the actual series versus Miami you would remember Bam abusing Robinson and you would remember Julius Randle standing and watching their shooters shoot and do nothing and you would remember Brunson getting torched by the likes of Duncan Robinson and Max Strus. No it wasn’t Thibs coaching, it was the team just wasn’t good enough to beat Miami in that series. Simple as that. Oh but Spo is such a great coach, well look at them now, they added Rozier and lost some key pieces of that puzzle and team dynamic isn’t as good as that so now Spo looks basic and average. Why? His roster isn’t fitting right. Does he suck as coach now?

There is a difference between holding a coach accountable and scapegoating and putting the teams failures on him. Thibs has his flaws, just like players do and just like all the other coaches do. There is no perfect player or perfect coach. They all have flaws somewhere. So unless there is clearly a better coach out there waiting then why would we get rid of Thibs now before even seeing what the result will be with a roster that actually finally has realistic expectations of advancing past the 2nd round? Guess what, there is no better coach available right now

I know the regular season is different from the postseason which is part of the reason I don't look at Thibs as highly as you do. I know in the regular season Thibs can rack up wins by shortening his rotation at times, extending certain player's minutes, having a short leash with young players when they struggle and pushing his players to compete as if every game is the most important game of the season. That's great but that is not the objective of most teams and coaches he is competing against in the regular season.

He has been running the same predictable formula since his first year with the Bulls. Hey, you take incredibly difficult shots all day and the rest of your guys clean up the mess by crashing the glass and defending. From Derrick Rose to CJ Watson to John Lucas to Nate Robinson to Aaron Brooks all the way up until Randle and Brunson. There is a reason we traded for Burks last year and signed Payne this off-season. I can't be surprised if this predictable formula fails in the postseason. I'm not sure if he has the personnel this year to run that formula so we shall see how he adjusts.

The previous formula has led to great win totals against teams that may be tanking, resting players, trying to develop other players for the future, working on new schemes and situations or teams that are actually very talented and trying their hardest to win but in the postseason when every team has the same objective as Thibs does for every game which is to simply to win the game in front of you he has not shown himself to be a better than average coach.

Yes, players play a role in the teams success but I can't place any blame on the coach if a player struggles when everyone knows the ball is going to him while all of his teammates just stand around in a predictable offense especially when that strategy hasn't led him very far in the postseason previously?

If a player like Randle is allowed to play 36 minutes all regular season while deciding whether or not he wants to give a damn on defense and then it bites the team in the ass during the postseason I can't look at the coach and wonder why he hasn't held his players accountable all year?

If another coach sacrifices wins in the regular season to have his team better prepared for the postseason physically and mentally I can't look at Thibs and wonder why he fights so hard for regular season victories?

Thibs is not to blame for everything that has gone wrong with his teams just as he does not deserve credit for all the good things that happen but as someone who followed his Bulls' teams I can still see similar flaws in him as a coach almost 15 years later that could hold his teams back.

[robillionaire]

Thibs is the best Knicks coach I’ve ever watched in my lifetime and has the Knicks playing great basketball for the first time since the turn of the century. I’m willing to excuse whatever flaws there may be. I’m not going back to Hornacek, Fizdale, Fisher, Isaiah. I refuse. Ride this out until the man retires or dies

[HEZI]

If regular season success is irrelevant then Thibs coaching success is basically irrelevant. You can't just praise him for his successes and excuse his failures. You can't simply blame the losses in the postseason to a team having a better player like Bam. Most Knicks fans like to think Brunson was the best player in the series. If simply just having the best player on the court was enough LeBron should have won many more rings.

Players and coaching matter. If the Knicks lose again in the second round i'm sure some will still find a way to place no blame on Thibs. Just like Randle, Thibs needs to prove himself against the toughest competition competing at the highest level. Not just in the regular season against varying levels of talent with varying goals other than just winning that one game in front of them which seems to be Thibs biggest concern.

You are struggling to follow. Regular season is irrelevant to the playoffs when comparing the two, not that regular season is irrelevant. You comparing who won in regular season to determine who will win in the playoffs shows me you probably haven’t been following the league long enough otherwise you would know it really doesn’t matter what was or wasn’t done in the regular season because when the playoffs start that’s a whole new season.

If you remember the actual series versus Miami you would remember Bam abusing Robinson and you would remember Julius Randle standing and watching their shooters shoot and do nothing and you would remember Brunson getting torched by the likes of Duncan Robinson and Max Strus. No it wasn’t Thibs coaching, it was the team just wasn’t good enough to beat Miami in that series. Simple as that. Oh but Spo is such a great coach, well look at them now, they added Rozier and lost some key pieces of that puzzle and team dynamic isn’t as good as that so now Spo looks basic and average. Why? His roster isn’t fitting right. Does he suck as coach now?

There is a difference between holding a coach accountable and scapegoating and putting the teams failures on him. Thibs has his flaws, just like players do and just like all the other coaches do. There is no perfect player or perfect coach. They all have flaws somewhere. So unless there is clearly a better coach out there waiting then why would we get rid of Thibs now before even seeing what the result will be with a roster that actually finally has realistic expectations of advancing past the 2nd round? Guess what, there is no better coach available right now

I know the regular season is different from the postseason which is part of the reason I don't look at Thibs as highly as you do. I know in the regular season Thibs can rack up wins by shortening his rotation at times, extending certain player's minutes, having a short leash with young players when they struggle and pushing his players to compete as if every game is the most important game of the season. That's great but that is not the objective of most teams and coaches he is competing against in the regular season.

He has been running the same predictable formula since his first year with the Bulls. Hey, you take incredibly difficult shots all day and the rest of your guys clean up the mess by crashing the glass and defending. From Derrick Rose to CJ Watson to John Lucas to Nate Robinson to Aaron Brooks all the way up until Randle and Brunson. There is a reason we traded for Burks last year and signed Payne this off-season. I can't be surprised if this predictable formula fails in the postseason. I'm not sure if he has the personnel this year to run that formula so we shall see how he adjusts.

The previous formula has led to great win totals against teams that may be tanking, resting players, trying to develop other players for the future, working on new schemes and situations or teams that are actually very talented and trying their hardest to win but in the postseason when every team has the same objective as Thibs does for every game which is to simply to win the game in front of you he has not shown himself to be a better than average coach.

Yes, players play a role in the teams success but I can't place any blame on the coach if a player struggles when everyone knows the ball is going to him while all of his teammates just stand around in a predictable offense especially when that strategy hasn't led him very far in the postseason previously?

If a player like Randle is allowed to play 36 minutes all regular season while deciding whether or not he wants to give a damn on defense and then it bites the team in the ass during the postseason I can't look at the coach and wonder why he hasn't held his players accountable all year?

If another coach sacrifices wins in the regular season to have his team better prepared for the postseason physically and mentally I can't look at Thibs and wonder why he fights so hard for regular season victories?

Thibs is not to blame for everything that has gone wrong with his teams just as he does not deserve credit for all the good things that happen but as someone who followed his Bulls' teams I can still see similar flaws in him as a coach almost 15 years later that could hold his teams back.

This years Knicks are playing completely different than last years Knicks so the formula has changed because the roster has changed. So that kind of debunks your formula argument. Thibs has adjusted to a different style based on what has and hasn’t worked during his tenure and the moves made by the front office to get where we are now. If you aren’t paying attention then maybe you should. We are breaking some historic franchise records and it’s still only November. He’s doing something right.

You are comparing most coaches to Thibs yet most coaches don’t have the resume to fit your standard that you set for Thibs. There is a very small number of coaches who have been able to reach these type of standards without generational talent. You can feel more confident in generational talent carrying you throughout the playoffs when these players have a proven track record. Otherwise no coach is really sacrificing wins in the regular season unless they are tanking. Some teams have deeper rosters and can depend on the bench so that makes things even easier. Others don’t have that luxury and have to rely on starters more. Thibs has done well with what he has had.

No coach before or after Thibs has been able to get more out of Randle than he has, so sure you can say he didn’t do this or that but at the end of the day he got the most out of him. There’s only so much a coach can do with a player like Randle. It’s why he’s no longer here.

[j4remi]

Thibs is the best Knicks coach I’ve ever watched in my lifetime and has the Knicks playing great basketball for the first time since the turn of the century. I’m willing to excuse whatever flaws there may be. I’m not going back to Hornacek, Fizdale, Fisher, Isaiah. I refuse. Ride this out until the man retires or dies

Yeah, after seeing how bad it can get, I'm more afraid of the prospects of taking a coaching leap backwards than I am of sticking it out with Thibs. Though, I reserve the right to completely change my mind the second things go awry.

[Clyde_Style]

Just got back from a camping trip to discover our guys reamed them Suns hard

Train starting to roll perhaps

[JayTWill]

You are struggling to follow. Regular season is irrelevant to the playoffs when comparing the two, not that regular season is irrelevant. You comparing who won in regular season to determine who will win in the playoffs shows me you probably haven’t been following the league long enough otherwise you would know it really doesn’t matter what was or wasn’t done in the regular season because when the playoffs start that’s a whole new season.

If you remember the actual series versus Miami you would remember Bam abusing Robinson and you would remember Julius Randle standing and watching their shooters shoot and do nothing and you would remember Brunson getting torched by the likes of Duncan Robinson and Max Strus. No it wasn’t Thibs coaching, it was the team just wasn’t good enough to beat Miami in that series. Simple as that. Oh but Spo is such a great coach, well look at them now, they added Rozier and lost some key pieces of that puzzle and team dynamic isn’t as good as that so now Spo looks basic and average. Why? His roster isn’t fitting right. Does he suck as coach now?

There is a difference between holding a coach accountable and scapegoating and putting the teams failures on him. Thibs has his flaws, just like players do and just like all the other coaches do. There is no perfect player or perfect coach. They all have flaws somewhere. So unless there is clearly a better coach out there waiting then why would we get rid of Thibs now before even seeing what the result will be with a roster that actually finally has realistic expectations of advancing past the 2nd round? Guess what, there is no better coach available right now

I know the regular season is different from the postseason which is part of the reason I don't look at Thibs as highly as you do. I know in the regular season Thibs can rack up wins by shortening his rotation at times, extending certain player's minutes, having a short leash with young players when they struggle and pushing his players to compete as if every game is the most important game of the season. That's great but that is not the objective of most teams and coaches he is competing against in the regular season.

He has been running the same predictable formula since his first year with the Bulls. Hey, you take incredibly difficult shots all day and the rest of your guys clean up the mess by crashing the glass and defending. From Derrick Rose to CJ Watson to John Lucas to Nate Robinson to Aaron Brooks all the way up until Randle and Brunson. There is a reason we traded for Burks last year and signed Payne this off-season. I can't be surprised if this predictable formula fails in the postseason. I'm not sure if he has the personnel this year to run that formula so we shall see how he adjusts.

The previous formula has led to great win totals against teams that may be tanking, resting players, trying to develop other players for the future, working on new schemes and situations or teams that are actually very talented and trying their hardest to win but in the postseason when every team has the same objective as Thibs does for every game which is to simply to win the game in front of you he has not shown himself to be a better than average coach.

Yes, players play a role in the teams success but I can't place any blame on the coach if a player struggles when everyone knows the ball is going to him while all of his teammates just stand around in a predictable offense especially when that strategy hasn't led him very far in the postseason previously?

If a player like Randle is allowed to play 36 minutes all regular season while deciding whether or not he wants to give a damn on defense and then it bites the team in the ass during the postseason I can't look at the coach and wonder why he hasn't held his players accountable all year?

If another coach sacrifices wins in the regular season to have his team better prepared for the postseason physically and mentally I can't look at Thibs and wonder why he fights so hard for regular season victories?

Thibs is not to blame for everything that has gone wrong with his teams just as he does not deserve credit for all the good things that happen but as someone who followed his Bulls' teams I can still see similar flaws in him as a coach almost 15 years later that could hold his teams back.

This years Knicks are playing completely different than last years Knicks so the formula has changed because the roster has changed. So that kind of debunks your formula argument. Thibs has adjusted to a different style based on what has and hasn’t worked during his tenure and the moves made by the front office to get where we are now. If you aren’t paying attention then maybe you should. We are breaking some historic franchise records and it’s still only November. He’s doing something right.

You are comparing most coaches to Thibs yet most coaches don’t have the resume to fit your standard that you set for Thibs. There is a very small number of coaches who have been able to reach these type of standards without generational talent. You can feel more confident in generational talent carrying you throughout the playoffs when these players have a proven track record. Otherwise no coach is really sacrificing wins in the regular season unless they are tanking. Some teams have deeper rosters and can depend on the bench so that makes things even easier. Others don’t have that luxury and have to rely on starters more. Thibs has done well with what he has had.

No coach before or after Thibs has been able to get more out of Randle than he has, so sure you can say he didn’t do this or that but at the end of the day he got the most out of him. There’s only so much a coach can do with a player like Randle. It’s why he’s no longer here.

Coaching and players matter.

How do you think Steph, Klay and Draymond's careers go if the Warriors replaced Mark Jackson with Thibs instead of Kerr? Steph is considered a generational talent. Those 3 could all be hall of famers. Do you think they become a dynasty? Do you think Thibs would switch the offense from the heavy iso/pick and roll to a more free flowing triangle/Spurs ball movement/ D'Antoni pace while maintaining the great defense? Does Thibs elevate that group that was a great defense under Jackson with limited ball movement? I feel like Thibs is much closer to Mark Jackson than he is to Steve Kerr.

And ask Minnesota fans how they feel about the great player Thibs helped to mold from a 20+ point scorer on good efficiency in a smaller role prior to his arrival in New York into a 23-25 point scorer with more offensive freedom with worse efficiency while being completely indifferent to playing defense while expecting a bigger role. I'm sure they are all excited about the "All NBA/All Star"

[Clyde_Style]

So many preseason gloom and doomers, guys still hating on the KAT trade, folks saying the season was finished before it ever began.

We faithful Knicks fans can rejoice that we've been vindicated when we said: GIVE THE TEAM TIME TO GEL.

Still very early in the season, but we are figuring it out! Buckle up Knicks fan, we are just getting started!!

Thank you Leon for bringing KAT home!

Funny how the biggest hater was named KAT. Guy was spazzing out over the trade and saying everything they could to run down Towns. Guy hasn't shown their face in a while after making such a giant fool of themselves. This board is actually readable again without the trolling nonsense by agenda weirdos and haters.

[HEZI]

I know the regular season is different from the postseason which is part of the reason I don't look at Thibs as highly as you do. I know in the regular season Thibs can rack up wins by shortening his rotation at times, extending certain player's minutes, having a short leash with young players when they struggle and pushing his players to compete as if every game is the most important game of the season. That's great but that is not the objective of most teams and coaches he is competing against in the regular season.

He has been running the same predictable formula since his first year with the Bulls. Hey, you take incredibly difficult shots all day and the rest of your guys clean up the mess by crashing the glass and defending. From Derrick Rose to CJ Watson to John Lucas to Nate Robinson to Aaron Brooks all the way up until Randle and Brunson. There is a reason we traded for Burks last year and signed Payne this off-season. I can't be surprised if this predictable formula fails in the postseason. I'm not sure if he has the personnel this year to run that formula so we shall see how he adjusts.

The previous formula has led to great win totals against teams that may be tanking, resting players, trying to develop other players for the future, working on new schemes and situations or teams that are actually very talented and trying their hardest to win but in the postseason when every team has the same objective as Thibs does for every game which is to simply to win the game in front of you he has not shown himself to be a better than average coach.

Yes, players play a role in the teams success but I can't place any blame on the coach if a player struggles when everyone knows the ball is going to him while all of his teammates just stand around in a predictable offense especially when that strategy hasn't led him very far in the postseason previously?

If a player like Randle is allowed to play 36 minutes all regular season while deciding whether or not he wants to give a damn on defense and then it bites the team in the ass during the postseason I can't look at the coach and wonder why he hasn't held his players accountable all year?

If another coach sacrifices wins in the regular season to have his team better prepared for the postseason physically and mentally I can't look at Thibs and wonder why he fights so hard for regular season victories?

Thibs is not to blame for everything that has gone wrong with his teams just as he does not deserve credit for all the good things that happen but as someone who followed his Bulls' teams I can still see similar flaws in him as a coach almost 15 years later that could hold his teams back.

This years Knicks are playing completely different than last years Knicks so the formula has changed because the roster has changed. So that kind of debunks your formula argument. Thibs has adjusted to a different style based on what has and hasn’t worked during his tenure and the moves made by the front office to get where we are now. If you aren’t paying attention then maybe you should. We are breaking some historic franchise records and it’s still only November. He’s doing something right.

You are comparing most coaches to Thibs yet most coaches don’t have the resume to fit your standard that you set for Thibs. There is a very small number of coaches who have been able to reach these type of standards without generational talent. You can feel more confident in generational talent carrying you throughout the playoffs when these players have a proven track record. Otherwise no coach is really sacrificing wins in the regular season unless they are tanking. Some teams have deeper rosters and can depend on the bench so that makes things even easier. Others don’t have that luxury and have to rely on starters more. Thibs has done well with what he has had.

No coach before or after Thibs has been able to get more out of Randle than he has, so sure you can say he didn’t do this or that but at the end of the day he got the most out of him. There’s only so much a coach can do with a player like Randle. It’s why he’s no longer here.

Coaching and players matter.

How do you think Steph, Klay and Draymond's careers go if the Warriors replaced Mark Jackson with Thibs instead of Kerr? Steph is considered a generational talent. Those 3 could all be hall of famers. Do you think they become a dynasty? Do you think Thibs would switch the offense from the heavy iso/pick and roll to a more free flowing triangle/Spurs ball movement/ D'Antoni pace while maintaining the great defense? Does Thibs elevate that group that was a great defense under Jackson with limited ball movement? I feel like Thibs is much closer to Mark Jackson than he is to Steve Kerr.

And ask Minnesota fans how they feel about the great player Thibs helped to mold from a 20+ point scorer on good efficiency in a smaller role prior to his arrival in New York into a 23-25 point scorer with more offensive freedom with worse efficiency while being completely indifferent to playing defense while expecting a bigger role. I'm sure they are all excited about the "All NBA/All Star"

If your roster is built a certain way you have to coach it a certain way. Yeah Kerr was able to help Warriors but he certainly wasn’t helping the Knicks and in fact he rejected Phil’s offer to join the Knicks. D’Antoni already failed trying that in New York so Kerr knew what he was going to be tasked with and said nah I’m good. We’ve been down this road before, we have seen many successful coaches fail in New York. What worked in one place isn’t guaranteed to work in another place. You need the right group of guys for it to come together. So whatever has worked for Kerr in GS isn’t guaranteed to work elsewhere. He’s not turning the Bucks into the Warriors, it’s just not happening.

This years Knicks play a different style than last years team, so that’s evidence that Thibs can and has adjusted to his roster. Not really sure what point you are trying to make with the Randle comment but it’s actually more evidence to help the case for Thibs than against him. TWolves have no clue what to do with Randle right now whereas Thibs at least knew how to get the best out of him. TWolves had no clue how to use Towns and Thibs has set him loose on the Association. We have one of the most efficient offenses in the league and are playing a free flowing unselfish brand of basketball. Isn’t that what you wanted? What you said Thibs is not capable of delivering? Well he’s doing it right now so what’s the problem? I think it’s just insecurity and past Knicks failures so a scapegoat is always needed. Now it’s Thibs so if anything was to go wrong we already have him on the front line.

[Spree2Houston]

Thibs had a bigger impact on the Celtics winning it all in 2008 than Doc Rivers. While Rivers gets all the glory, it was Thibs who built that suffocating defense. You give Thibs the elite talent that he needs and he will deliver. I don’t always agree with his style of coaching but he will always deliver a good to great team as long as you give him the talent. We will miss Thibs when he retires.