PG: Knicks vs Suns- 11/21/24

[Guano]

Being a h0mer has changed you for the worst jk

It’s just that the Knicks have let me down for too many years. I would get my hopes up from these type of games against bad teams only for us to end up on the treadmill and that hurt. Only time I ever felt the Knicks were true contenders was in 2013 and that stung like hell when we lost. I’m not saying you can’t enjoy the Knicks. Our new offense is pretty fun to watch and it’s definitely much different than what we have been used to. I’m just being skeptical of this team until we do real damage to contenders. And this is the first time the Knicks have went all in on a chip in my lifetime so it’s championship or bust now. We can’t settle for mediocrity. Well at least for me personally.

lol.
I totally get where you're coming from - being a fan is pain. Especially being a knicks fan. I'm aware that I'm prolly going to suffer a horrible playoff disappointment. But I'm going to enjoy the ride instead of preparing for the letdown.

They went all in I'm all in.

You in april when they let us down again

Until then

[HEZI]

I didn't say OG should play 25 mpg. I said closer to 30-32 mpg would be more reasonable. And no the Knicks didn't trade for OG to play 25 mpg, they traded him to be a contender. And you know what? They will not be a contender if he gets hurt and misses the playoffs because his body couldn't take a load that was too heavy for him. So as a brittle player with a track record of injury, managing his playing time seems imperative for achieving the objective for which they traded for him in the first place.

I don't even know who you're arguing against. I've given Thibs plenty of credit for his coaching, and I've defended his work on many fronts, including on some of the injuries that we suffered. I just don't defend him for everything.

Anyway, the notion that managing minutes is ridiculous and that coaches have no control whatsoever over player health has been debunked by numerous people in this thread, who all sound more reasonable than you on this specific issue.

The difference between OG being healthy for a deep playoff run and his limbs coming off his body is 32 mpg instead of 35 mpg. Ok thank you so much Mr.Reasonable. For someone so brittle you sure he shouldn’t be at 25MPG? Where are you getting this 30-32 minutes per game Mr. Analytics? You did some numbers crunching and determined that 30-32 minutes is going to keep him healthy?

OG is averaging 36.3 minutes per game, which puts him in the top 20 among all 478 NBA players who have logged minutes this year. For a player who has proven to be this brittle over the years, I don't think it's wise to give him this many minutes.

If he averaged 32 minutes per game instead of 36.3, over a 82 game season it would save him over 352 total minutes, which is the equivalent of approximately 10 games of rest.

If you don't think it's a meaningful difference, I don't know what to tell you.

Nobody is more brittle than Mitchell Robinson and he can’t stay healthy despite playing 25 mpg. If OG is as brittle as you say, it really doesn’t matter whether he plays 36 minutes a game, 32 minutes a game or 25 minutes a game. There are countless examples of this.

[3toheadmelo]

lol.
I totally get where you're coming from - being a fan is pain. Especially being a knicks fan. I'm aware that I'm prolly going to suffer a horrible playoff disappointment. But I'm going to enjoy the ride instead of preparing for the letdown.

They went all in I'm all in.

You in april when they let us down again

Until then

You when we beat the wizards by 40

[Guano]

You in april when they let us down again

Until then

You when we beat the wizards by 40

Me when they beat the jazz today

[JayTWill]

If your roster is built a certain way you have to coach it a certain way. Yeah Kerr was able to help Warriors but he certainly wasn’t helping the Knicks and in fact he rejected Phil’s offer to join the Knicks. D’Antoni already failed trying that in New York so Kerr knew what he was going to be tasked with and said nah I’m good. We’ve been down this road before, we have seen many successful coaches fail in New York. What worked in one place isn’t guaranteed to work in another place. You need the right group of guys for it to come together. So whatever has worked for Kerr in GS isn’t guaranteed to work elsewhere. He’s not turning the Bucks into the Warriors, it’s just not happening.

This years Knicks play a different style than last years team, so that’s evidence that Thibs can and has adjusted to his roster. Not really sure what point you are trying to make with the Randle comment but it’s actually more evidence to help the case for Thibs than against him. TWolves have no clue what to do with Randle right now whereas Thibs at least knew how to get the best out of him. TWolves had no clue how to use Towns and Thibs has set him loose on the Association. We have one of the most efficient offenses in the league and are playing a free flowing unselfish brand of basketball. Isn’t that what you wanted? What you said Thibs is not capable of delivering? Well he’s doing it right now so what’s the problem? I think it’s just insecurity and past Knicks failures so a scapegoat is always needed. Now it’s Thibs so if anything was to go wrong we already have him on the front line.

Kerr was able to elevate the talent of the Warriors to a much higher level than the previous coach. Same players. Slightly more experienced but a level of dominance not shown under Jackson. You did not answer my question about what you think Thibs would have done with that talent since you seem to want to blame Thibs failures on the talent he has been given.

As far as this year we are 1 month into the season. The offense has obviously changed while the defense has struggled. I'm not going to form an opinion good or bad based on a small sample size where the team has only had success against terrible competition. The offense was incredibly free flowing against a terrible Pistons' defense and then the offense collapsed against the Rockets' physicality the next game. The defense hasn't been great overall. It's too early for me to make a true assessment of how I think the team will perform as the season goes along and into the playoffs based on this year's talent under Thibs.

And Randle is just an example of Thibs/New York hype imo. Using the "development/elevation" of such a flawed player like Randle as an example of Thibs greatness does not make sense to me. A defensive minded coach that constantly harps on defense and will yank a young player out of the game after one defensive breakdown allowed his "star" player to give absolutely no effort defensively whenever he chose to is not an example of great coaching.

Randle scoring a few more points with less efficiency in a role he probably should have never been given as a top 1/2 option isn't the greatest achievement. He is the same exact player in Minny as he has been in New York for the most part. He is a guy that can elevate your offense while dragging down your defense and can drag down both ends when he is one of those moods. He did the same thing under Thibs. Minnesota would probably prefer the 6th man/spot starter pre-New York version of Randle so they could start Reid and bring Randle off the bench instead of this "All-Star" version that Thibs has enabled for the last 4-5 years.

Minnesota fans are calling him the D'Angelo Russell of power forwards. I feel like calling Thibs the Julius Randle of coaches sometimes.

I feel like Randle and Thibs are 2 guys that may have been elevated to roles that are beyond their skillset to be truly great at. They both have picked regular season awards that are not an indicator of where they actually ranked among their peers. They both like to physically overwhelm their opponents in different ways but when they can't things can fall apart for them. Both of them have not matched their regular season success in the postseason. And both of them seem to have just enough emotional instability that the people around them seem to be afraid to point their obvious flaws even when it is clearly hurting the team.

Anyway, we have different opinions on Thibs. I'm just waiting to see how the team performs in bigger moments over a longer period of time before I change my opinion on him. He has his strengths and weaknesses. I just think his weaknesses have held him back more than you do. I'm still rooting for the team and his success. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to his flaws from the minutes distribution to the offensive and defensive strategies to the stubbornness at times to his grinding and emotional coaching style etc

Kerr is a classic example of generational talent carrying a coach. This is the same guy who was ready to bench Curry for his shot selection until he realized how great Curry was so he just had to throw his hands up in the air and sit back down in amazement. There is nothing special about Kerr. We’ve seen how terrible they really can be without Curry. Every time Curry gets hurt that team is lotto bound. Curry has done more for Kerr than Kerr has for Curry. Steph was destined for greatness, with or without Kerr.

Benching Randle wasn’t the solution, trading Randle was. Benching Randle would have only made his value even worse and he already had negative trade value despite his accolades. Dude has some of the worst attitude in the league, benching him certainly wouldn’t have helped the team or the locker room long term. They needed to get him out of there and they finally did. Most of us would have been happy with way less than what we actually got so major props to the front office for pulling that off. Thibs didn’t mold Randle, he just had to work with him. Randle was and still is the same player, Thibs just happened to get the best out of him but he was never winning anything significant with him either. Guess what? Kerr couldn’t either.

Funny you mention DAngelo Russell, you seem to forget how awful the Warriors were with Russell. The great Steve Kerr couldn’t do anything about that. The only solution was to trade him. Ironically to Minnesota for Wiggins who was a much better piece for them. Kerr failed with Russell. Doesn’t make him a bad coach but he’s no miracle worker.

You don’t have to turn a blind eye to Thibs flaws, you also don’t have to turn a blind eye to his strengths and positives either. You can look at it objectively. He’s not some great coach, he’s also not a bad coach. He’s solid, has done a solid job so far given what he has had to work with. If and when that time comes where we feel ok there is a better option available that could elevate the team higher then sure explore it and make that change. That time is not now.

Ok so Thibs gets credit for "maximizing" Randle but he is not to blame for his flaws and Kerr was simply carried by Curry's greatness and played no role in his success. Coaching matters except when you decide it doesn't.

[HEZI]

Kerr was able to elevate the talent of the Warriors to a much higher level than the previous coach. Same players. Slightly more experienced but a level of dominance not shown under Jackson. You did not answer my question about what you think Thibs would have done with that talent since you seem to want to blame Thibs failures on the talent he has been given.

As far as this year we are 1 month into the season. The offense has obviously changed while the defense has struggled. I'm not going to form an opinion good or bad based on a small sample size where the team has only had success against terrible competition. The offense was incredibly free flowing against a terrible Pistons' defense and then the offense collapsed against the Rockets' physicality the next game. The defense hasn't been great overall. It's too early for me to make a true assessment of how I think the team will perform as the season goes along and into the playoffs based on this year's talent under Thibs.

And Randle is just an example of Thibs/New York hype imo. Using the "development/elevation" of such a flawed player like Randle as an example of Thibs greatness does not make sense to me. A defensive minded coach that constantly harps on defense and will yank a young player out of the game after one defensive breakdown allowed his "star" player to give absolutely no effort defensively whenever he chose to is not an example of great coaching.

Randle scoring a few more points with less efficiency in a role he probably should have never been given as a top 1/2 option isn't the greatest achievement. He is the same exact player in Minny as he has been in New York for the most part. He is a guy that can elevate your offense while dragging down your defense and can drag down both ends when he is one of those moods. He did the same thing under Thibs. Minnesota would probably prefer the 6th man/spot starter pre-New York version of Randle so they could start Reid and bring Randle off the bench instead of this "All-Star" version that Thibs has enabled for the last 4-5 years.

Minnesota fans are calling him the D'Angelo Russell of power forwards. I feel like calling Thibs the Julius Randle of coaches sometimes.

I feel like Randle and Thibs are 2 guys that may have been elevated to roles that are beyond their skillset to be truly great at. They both have picked regular season awards that are not an indicator of where they actually ranked among their peers. They both like to physically overwhelm their opponents in different ways but when they can't things can fall apart for them. Both of them have not matched their regular season success in the postseason. And both of them seem to have just enough emotional instability that the people around them seem to be afraid to point their obvious flaws even when it is clearly hurting the team.

Anyway, we have different opinions on Thibs. I'm just waiting to see how the team performs in bigger moments over a longer period of time before I change my opinion on him. He has his strengths and weaknesses. I just think his weaknesses have held him back more than you do. I'm still rooting for the team and his success. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to his flaws from the minutes distribution to the offensive and defensive strategies to the stubbornness at times to his grinding and emotional coaching style etc

Kerr is a classic example of generational talent carrying a coach. This is the same guy who was ready to bench Curry for his shot selection until he realized how great Curry was so he just had to throw his hands up in the air and sit back down in amazement. There is nothing special about Kerr. We’ve seen how terrible they really can be without Curry. Every time Curry gets hurt that team is lotto bound. Curry has done more for Kerr than Kerr has for Curry. Steph was destined for greatness, with or without Kerr.

Benching Randle wasn’t the solution, trading Randle was. Benching Randle would have only made his value even worse and he already had negative trade value despite his accolades. Dude has some of the worst attitude in the league, benching him certainly wouldn’t have helped the team or the locker room long term. They needed to get him out of there and they finally did. Most of us would have been happy with way less than what we actually got so major props to the front office for pulling that off. Thibs didn’t mold Randle, he just had to work with him. Randle was and still is the same player, Thibs just happened to get the best out of him but he was never winning anything significant with him either. Guess what? Kerr couldn’t either.

Funny you mention DAngelo Russell, you seem to forget how awful the Warriors were with Russell. The great Steve Kerr couldn’t do anything about that. The only solution was to trade him. Ironically to Minnesota for Wiggins who was a much better piece for them. Kerr failed with Russell. Doesn’t make him a bad coach but he’s no miracle worker.

You don’t have to turn a blind eye to Thibs flaws, you also don’t have to turn a blind eye to his strengths and positives either. You can look at it objectively. He’s not some great coach, he’s also not a bad coach. He’s solid, has done a solid job so far given what he has had to work with. If and when that time comes where we feel ok there is a better option available that could elevate the team higher then sure explore it and make that change. That time is not now.

Ok so Thibs gets credit for "maximizing" Randle but he is not to blame for his flaws and Kerr was simply carried by Curry's greatness and played no role in his success. Coaching matters except when you decide it doesn't.

Thibs has shown success without Randle. Kerr has not without Curry. Thibs has been able to still get his team performing well even without Randle, whether it’s regular season or playoffs. Kerr goes to the lotto without Curry. Of course coaching matters, which is why getting rid of Thibs isn’t the wisest choice considering we have gone through so many coaches in the past we don’t just want another Fizdale, Fisher, Hornacek. Happy with Thibs, thank you very much

[JayTWill]

Kerr is a classic example of generational talent carrying a coach. This is the same guy who was ready to bench Curry for his shot selection until he realized how great Curry was so he just had to throw his hands up in the air and sit back down in amazement. There is nothing special about Kerr. We’ve seen how terrible they really can be without Curry. Every time Curry gets hurt that team is lotto bound. Curry has done more for Kerr than Kerr has for Curry. Steph was destined for greatness, with or without Kerr.

Benching Randle wasn’t the solution, trading Randle was. Benching Randle would have only made his value even worse and he already had negative trade value despite his accolades. Dude has some of the worst attitude in the league, benching him certainly wouldn’t have helped the team or the locker room long term. They needed to get him out of there and they finally did. Most of us would have been happy with way less than what we actually got so major props to the front office for pulling that off. Thibs didn’t mold Randle, he just had to work with him. Randle was and still is the same player, Thibs just happened to get the best out of him but he was never winning anything significant with him either. Guess what? Kerr couldn’t either.

Funny you mention DAngelo Russell, you seem to forget how awful the Warriors were with Russell. The great Steve Kerr couldn’t do anything about that. The only solution was to trade him. Ironically to Minnesota for Wiggins who was a much better piece for them. Kerr failed with Russell. Doesn’t make him a bad coach but he’s no miracle worker.

You don’t have to turn a blind eye to Thibs flaws, you also don’t have to turn a blind eye to his strengths and positives either. You can look at it objectively. He’s not some great coach, he’s also not a bad coach. He’s solid, has done a solid job so far given what he has had to work with. If and when that time comes where we feel ok there is a better option available that could elevate the team higher then sure explore it and make that change. That time is not now.

Ok so Thibs gets credit for "maximizing" Randle but he is not to blame for his flaws and Kerr was simply carried by Curry's greatness and played no role in his success. Coaching matters except when you decide it doesn't.

Thibs has shown success without Randle. Kerr has not without Curry. Thibs has been able to still get his team performing well even without Randle, whether it’s regular season or playoffs. Kerr goes to the lotto without Curry. Of course coaching matters, which is why getting rid of Thibs isn’t the wisest choice considering we have gone through so many coaches in the past we don’t just want another Fizdale, Fisher, Hornacek. Happy with Thibs, thank you very much

I doubt Thibs would have gotten that 2019-2020 Warriors roster without Steph and Klay to the postseason either but i'm sure he would have pushed like hell to get every regular season victory possible in a completely lost season while playing his vets as much as possible. It would have been 40 minutes of D'Angelo Russell, Alec Burks, Glen Robinson III, Draymond when healthy and Will Cauley-Stein all season. The Warriors may have even lost out on a few D'Angelo Russell all-star seasons and a nice contract extension without Thibs foresight and coaching

[HEZI]

Ok so Thibs gets credit for "maximizing" Randle but he is not to blame for his flaws and Kerr was simply carried by Curry's greatness and played no role in his success. Coaching matters except when you decide it doesn't.

Thibs has shown success without Randle. Kerr has not without Curry. Thibs has been able to still get his team performing well even without Randle, whether it’s regular season or playoffs. Kerr goes to the lotto without Curry. Of course coaching matters, which is why getting rid of Thibs isn’t the wisest choice considering we have gone through so many coaches in the past we don’t just want another Fizdale, Fisher, Hornacek. Happy with Thibs, thank you very much

I doubt Thibs would have gotten that 2019-2020 Warriors roster without Steph and Klay to the postseason either but i'm sure he would have pushed like hell to get every regular season victory possible in a completely lost season while playing his vets as much as possible. It would have been 40 minutes of D'Angelo Russell, Alec Burks, Glen Robinson III, Draymond when healthy and Will Cauley-Stein all season. The Warriors may have even lost out on a few D'Angelo Russell all-star seasons and a nice contract extension without Thibs foresight and coaching

Well it does say a lot that one guy could do it with the DAngelo Russell of PFs and the other guy can’t with DAngelo Russell

You don’t seem to hold Kerr to the same standard as Thibs when he’s not benefiting from a generational talent like Steph Curry out there

[JayTWill]

Thibs has shown success without Randle. Kerr has not without Curry. Thibs has been able to still get his team performing well even without Randle, whether it’s regular season or playoffs. Kerr goes to the lotto without Curry. Of course coaching matters, which is why getting rid of Thibs isn’t the wisest choice considering we have gone through so many coaches in the past we don’t just want another Fizdale, Fisher, Hornacek. Happy with Thibs, thank you very much

I doubt Thibs would have gotten that 2019-2020 Warriors roster without Steph and Klay to the postseason either but i'm sure he would have pushed like hell to get every regular season victory possible in a completely lost season while playing his vets as much as possible. It would have been 40 minutes of D'Angelo Russell, Alec Burks, Glen Robinson III, Draymond when healthy and Will Cauley-Stein all season. The Warriors may have even lost out on a few D'Angelo Russell all-star seasons and a nice contract extension without Thibs foresight and coaching

Well it does say a lot that one guy could do it with the DAngelo Russell of PFs and the other guy can’t with DAngelo Russell

You don’t seem to hold Kerr to the same standard as Thibs when he’s not benefiting from a generational talent like Steph Curry out there

If I was a Warrior's fan I think I would be more happy that the team traded Russell that year and invested 20+ minutes per game in a rookie like Poole and tried to develop Wiggins into a quality role player instead of an individual star which benefited the team in their next championship run rather than trying to rack up every win possible to add to the coach's regular season greatness. Maximizing the individual success of the Russells and Randles of the world is not high on most successful team's priority list

[HEZI]

I doubt Thibs would have gotten that 2019-2020 Warriors roster without Steph and Klay to the postseason either but i'm sure he would have pushed like hell to get every regular season victory possible in a completely lost season while playing his vets as much as possible. It would have been 40 minutes of D'Angelo Russell, Alec Burks, Glen Robinson III, Draymond when healthy and Will Cauley-Stein all season. The Warriors may have even lost out on a few D'Angelo Russell all-star seasons and a nice contract extension without Thibs foresight and coaching

Well it does say a lot that one guy could do it with the DAngelo Russell of PFs and the other guy can’t with DAngelo Russell

You don’t seem to hold Kerr to the same standard as Thibs when he’s not benefiting from a generational talent like Steph Curry out there

If I was a Warrior's fan I think I would be more happy that the team traded Russell that year and invested 20+ minutes per game in a rookie like Poole and tried to develop Wiggins into a quality role player instead of an individual star which benefited the team in their next championship run rather than trying to rack up every win possible to add to the coach's regular season greatness. Maximizing the individual success of the Russells and Randles of the world is not high on most successful team's priority list

We’ve wanted that for years. I was leading the charge in the trade Randle campaign. Wanted him gone years ago and not once did my mindset change even at his peak. So you don’t gotta tell me they should have traded him Of course they should have but Thibs is not the GM or the president of basketball operations. He’s the coach so he coaches who he has