Retro Player of the Year 1990-91 UPDATE — Michael Jordan

[OhayoKD]

?

1990: 32/6.6/6.1 per75, +6.8 rTS%
1991: 32/6.1/5.6 per75, +7.1 rTS%

The main difference is he played less minutes and Scottie took over more of the playmaking duties. It was even a common complaint among Bulls players that MJ was playing exactly the same as the year before even though Phil had fully implemented the triangle. In fact, Phil's tendency to yank him when he was getting hot actually increased his aggression, particularly early in games.

The coasting argument is more apt for the next season, where had a few stretches of subpar (for his standard) play and the supporting cast were pretty much all having career years

Interesting how you use decimals to fit your little agenda and when not to. 1991 was 31.5/6.0/5.5 and 1990 was 33.6/6.9/6.3. So you got the stats off, + I was talking about 1989… he was more efficient, scored a point more and playmaked more, which was the real thing that wasn’t coast like. He went coast-like until playoffs hit in 1991 in comparison to his other years like 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987.

...I didn't use decimals on the PPG because I wanted to save myself 1 second of effort by typing "32" instead of "32.0." I wasn't rounding any numbers up or down, his PPG per 75 both years is literally 32.0 even. You either misunderstood that, or completely missed the per 75 part given you think I got all of his counting stats wrong. Either way, you brought a bunch of hostility for no reason when it was actually a you problem

But perhaps it was my mistake for even bother to engage with a guy named "lebronmygoat" whose post history almost entirely revolves around LeBron vs. MJ debates and coincidentally didn't start voting in this project until Michael Jordan became an eligible player (this is the part where you say 'Well where have YOU been?' but I'm obviously not a participant in the voting and was merely pointing out something I found strange the one time I'm reading this thread before voting is resolved).

Moreover, I'm not sure how less playmaking is indicative of coasting and not simply a change in roles/system.

Lebronnygoat is not voting at the moment and if they had been voting they would have been part of a minority of voters voting for Jordan in 1989. Moreover, they started participating in these threads before Jordan was drafted.

Good derail though.

[One_and_Done]

I'd query Hakeem voters on how they feel he added more value than say Malone or D Rob or Barkley, given he played only 56 games and was only healthy enough to start in 50 of them. That's a huge chunk of the season.

I would query you on how you suddenly do not care that Robinson lost 1-3 in the first round as a 2-seed to a team with eleven fewer wins. You seemed awfully invested with “home-court losses to bad teams” just a few years ago; wonder what changed.

Not really. I specifically point out D.Rob's drop in playoff performance in my voting post, and note that it kept him from being even higher still. It's been factored in, but not every factoring of factors is equal because there are other variables like who was better in the RS and what your support cast was.

I'd also query how much D.Rob was at fault given his performance. His Ortg and Drtg for the series were 128 and 105 respectively. Compare that to his team mates; his other starters had an Ortg of 95, 100, 103 & 112 respectively, and a Drtg of 113-114. That's an abnormal difference, much more than most years guys like Hakeem were upset. Hakeem was also criticised for disappointing in the RS too, so his need to show his supposed playoff advantage is greater than D.Rob, but pre-93 it's rarely there with a bevy of bad losses where Hakeem doesn't stand out in as much as this. In the rare instances it is there, I have voted Hakeem higher (e.g. 1986). Honestly, I may need to reconsider D.Rob being higher given this is one playoffs where I'm not sure he disappointed as much as other years.

[AEnigma]

I'd also query how much D.Rob was at fault given his performance. His Ortg and Drtg for the series were 128 and 105 respectively. Compare that to hos team mates.

Those are box composites…

Honestly, I may need to reconsider him being higher given this is one playoffs where I'm not sure he disappointed as much as other years.

I just find it interesting that you were so dedicated to ascribing team defensive results to individual players but here do not care that the Warriors put up a 111.7 estimated offensive rating against a team that had permitted a 103 offensive rating during the regular season. And on offence, again very interesting how you do not care about his lack of passing. Is this not the exact type of “empty stats” you referenced as a reason not to vote for Hakeem in 1987 or 1988?

[One_and_Done]

I'd also query how much D.Rob was at fault given his performance. His Ortg and Drtg for the series were 128 and 105 respectively. Compare that to hos team mates.

Those are box composites…

Honestly, I may need to reconsider him being higher given this is one playoffs where I'm not sure he disappointed as much as other years.

I just find it interesting that you were so dedicated to ascribing team defensive results to individual players but here do not care that the Warriors put up a 111.7 estimated offensive rating against a team that had permitted a 103 offensive rating during the regular season. And on offence, again very interesting how you do not care about his lack of passing. Is this not the exact type of “empty stats” you referenced aa a reason not to vote for Hakeem in 1987 or 1988?

Hakeem probably had a similarly strong signal outperforming his team mates in say the 88 playoffs, but although his team mates underperformed that PS that is not the case for the RS, where it was Hakeem who seemed to lack lift. The 88 Rockets were a below average RS team. The 2 things aren't the same.

Of course numbers aren't everything, they are just one signal, but I hadn't realised when I put D.Rob 3rd just how bad his team mates were that PS.

[Paulluxx9000]

1 Magic Johnson
2 David Robinson
3 Micheal Jordan
4 Charles Barkley
5 Scottie Pippen
The king of the 80s has his last hurrah. Most of the why is the same

Spoiler:

Over the previous years the offense goes from Kareem-centric to Magic-centric. A lot of people lament Magic not being given the reigns earlier but it’s not so easy. Prime Kareem completely invalidates high-level defense if you use him right.(and who was using him correctly…) Even now he is a huge headache for opposing teams but, you know who also invalidates high-level defense entirely? Magic.
It’s easy to just look at the assists but if you go by the assists Isiah isn’t that far off. Here’s what Magic has that Isiah doesn’t. You have 5 guys there to make sure Magic or one of his teammates doesn’t score. But if there’s just a sliver of daylight. Just a few guys ever so slightly overextended…Magic might just render all 5 of those defenders moot in a flash. He has unbelievable ball control, he’s big and powerful at the basket, he uses his eyes better than anyone, and has a cannon for an arm. He can defeat your defense basically himself. He might not end the possession with a tough contested fadeaway, but he’ll do it his way. And there’s only one other guy you could ever say that about. And he isn’t going to be on anyone’s ballot until 2004.(unless you’re really into him and are a “High school LeBron was the level of an NBA All-Star” (real people that exist))
Finally, his brain. His advanced stats are ridiculous But that doesn’t tell you how someone makes his teammates better. Magic’s impact is ridiculous. Magic is the smartest player on the court every time he steps on it(yes, smarter than Bird). He knows where he needs to go and where you need to go and he’ll make sure you and him both go where you need to go at the time and place you both need to be there. And he does that better than anyone else and everyone who comes after, probably even including that 2004 guy(who’s better at a couple other things).
Is his team good? Yes. Is Kareem amazing? Definitely. But we seem him still doing all this with explicitly fine and not Kareem teammates when he crosses 30

The team’s really fallen apart in 1991, especially in the playoffs. And yet..
3 less wins than one of the most loaded squads ever in the Bulls
11-3 against the conference including a gentleman’s sweep of Hakeem and 2 wins to close out the series vs Portland with Worthy injured (29% efg in game 6).
And a game 1 win against Chicago. Until Worthy reaggravated his leg in the 2nd half of game 3, it looked an even series.
James, the one from Akron, is a pretty natural comparison here. Was Steph better than Lebron in 2015? I don’t think so. Magic doesn’t quite get as many ridiculous wins and his team is less injured, but the competition is also better. And ultimately, I’m impressed more by Magic doing what he had no business doing, than I am by what anyone else did that season. Obviously the data backs him. This team was worse than the 88 one by a margin and that team was bad if you want to be statistical about it.
But I’m most at home with tape and the tape tells me it’s the same Magic I voted 1 earlier. That team didn’t have any business making the finals and getting 3 wins within another unlikely title. But they did. That’s why they call him “Magic’.
And then there’s Robinson. At long last, another two-way monster. With Hakeem’s individual work finally succumbing to the terrible times at Houston, another big rises to fill the void. He can’t move like Hakeem but he towers even taller. Drive him straight up and you are stuffed. He moved more than people remember anyway and that power came back the other way. He was hard to stop at the rim, and hard to score on. His playmaking was a weakness but everyone has weaknesses here. I’m not putting it on David that others had the teammates to cover while he didn’t. Monster by the data. If he was just able to do in the playoffs what he did night to night 75-82 times, he might have been the best. But instead he loses to the 45-win Warriors. That’s not enough for first, but it’s okay for 2nd.
My honest instinct here was to put Jordan fourth below Barkley, but in the interest of avoiding controversy or accusations of trolling, I will mark him third because I do understand why people prefer Jordan this year. Nonetheless, let me at least offer my reasoning for my original vote.
I’m quite high on Barkley. Rim pressure and creation, playmaking, and better rim protection than a certain other 6’6 guy. By 91 Jordan’s defense has deteriorated, and his scoring is easier to contain, something a much weaker iteration of Detroit were able to attest to, at least with Rodman on the floor. He picks up jumper’s foot in 1990 and the results are clear in the film. Frankly, for a majority of the playoff series that transpired during the first three-peat, including 3 finals, I’m not sure Jordan’s defense is even a positive. For those 3 finals, it’s arguably a negative, unarguably for 92 frankly. And it’s not like Jordan ever did so much. Either way to me what seals it is we see Barkley and MJ head to head. And head to head, I think Barkley was just better.
Jordan scores more, but Barkley shoots 10 points better. 10 points. As the sole focus of the Bulls much much better defense, Barkley is far more efficient than Jordan, and I think in terms of real playmaking and defense there’s not nearly the gap people pretend at that point. Hawkins burned MJ plenty. And many of those assists are just taking what’s there rather than making things appear. Jordan’s perfect season just wasn’t really perfect. Or close. The “advanced stats” don’t count most of those imperfections, but they’re there. I like rim-protection. And I also like the best rim-pressure guy in the league who invalidates top-level defense. That’s what Barkley did to Jordan’s Bulls. And that’s why, unofficially, I have him ahead.
Finally Pippen. He’s kind of already this in 1990 but in 91 it’s polished. In the postseason, maybe as polished as it’ll ever be. He’s the best rim-protector. Or at worst a close second. He’s the best man defender. By far. He’s the best help defender. By Far. He’s the floor-general, both sides. He’s the primary ball-handler. And he’s as much of a creator as Jordan is. And yet many will balk reading this vote. Like we didn’t see him outscore Jordan’s biggest nemesis the year Jordan left. He’s extremely easy to play next to for the majority of stars, yet can take over as the 1. See: 1994 and 1995. See: The first 2 games of these Eastern Conference Finals. The common stats only care about the scoring the times you pass to the scorer and the times you touch the ball as a defender. So they say Pippen shouldn’t be so high. But this is a useless approach to evaluating Scottie. A guy who does just about everything that isn’t there really really well.
When Jordan gets his average to 30 against Detroit, it’s on the back of the Pistons trying to blitz him in the last phase of game 2. Why? Because they are 15 points behind. An overwhelming disadvantage in the 90s. Why are they 15 points behind? Because while Jordan slept walk for a second straight game, Pippen crushed detroit. Pressing them full-court. Ramming their defenders at the basket. Creating boatloads for his teammates.
It didn’t show up in BPM, but it showed up where it needed to. In the wins. Jordan’s best years are behind him. Yet Chicago’s best years are ahead. Pippen is why, and more than worthy of my vote.

[Lebronnygoat]

I decided to watch the 1991 Finals and track Jordan's plus-minus as well as his defense on Magic and in general. I graded his defense using letter grades as follows:

A - great
B - good
C - average
D - subpar
F - terrible

There were a few instances when time on the clock wasn't shown so I couldn't see exactly when MJ was substituted in or out but the error shouldn't be more than 5 seconds. It's also notable that minutes in a few games don't match the minutes on BRef although the series average is accurate at ~44 mpg.

Game 1

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 41:20: -3
Jordan OFF 6:40: +1

Defensive Grade: F (terrible)

MJ got absolutely cooked by Magic here having spent almost the whole game on him. He committed a woeful 5 shooting fouls on Magic. Just gambled for steals way too much and kept reaching for the ball. He also didn't do well on a few possessions when switched onto Worthy and Divac.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 12 points (1/2, 9/10)
Worthy 4 points (2/3, 0/0)
Divac 2 points (1/1, 0/0)

Game 2

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 37:05 : +28
Jordan OFF 10:55: -7

Defensive Grade: B (good)

Jordan spent half of the first quarter on Magic. He committed one non-shooting foul and drew one charge on the Magic man. Then Pippen spent much of the rest of the game on Magic. Jordan spent a few minutes on Magic in the 3rd quarter and committed a shooting foul leading to two free throws. MJ registered a nice block on Worthy, a steal on Teagle and drew a charge on Divac. All in all he was very active as a help defender compared to Game 1 even though he spent most of this game off of Magic.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 2 points (0/0, 2/2)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 12 points (4/13, 4/4)

Magic had a far worse game here not just because Pippen was on him. Magic actually shook Pippen quite a few times but Pip didn't foul and the Bulls rotated better at the rim.

Game 3

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 50:52 : +7
Jordan OFF 2:08: +1

Defensive Grade: B (good)

Jordan and Pippen pretty much split their time on Magic. Jordan did a good job contesting Magic and was patient for the most part. He committed one shooting foul on Magic and another on Teagle. MJ forced Divac into a backcourt violated by pressing him and contested two more of his shots at the rim. He also registered a nice block on Teagle.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 6 points (2/5, 2/2)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 16 points (5/10, 6/7)

Pippen just kept getting beat off the bounce by Magic and didn't do well here. MJ also gambled on Magic once but a good rotation at the rim prevented a collapse.

Game 4

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 45:36 : +13
Jordan OFF 2:24: +2

Defensive Grade: D (subpar)

The bad tendencies from Game 1 reared their ugly head again. MJ spent about half of the game on Magic and committed two shooting fouls and allowed a few blow-bys by gambling. He also had one nice block on Teagle but wasn't too active on defense in this one.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 9 points (3/3, 3/3)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 13 points (3/10, 7/7)

Pippen also kept getting killed by Magic but Magic missed a few easy attempts at the rim and/or got bothered by Grant.

Game 5

Plus-Minus:
Jordan ON 48:00 : +7
Jordan OFF 0:00: 0

Defensive Grade: A (great)

MJ played the full 48 minutes here and was fantastic on D. Spent a big part of the game on Magic and just gave him a super hard time. Magic scored 5 points on 2 shots including a tough contested shot and a 3-pointer but MJ forced him into several turnovers. And he played smart without fouling and made it tough for Magic to receive the ball or get into his offense. MJ also got 5 steals, two on Magic and one each on Divac, AC Green and Teagle and got 2 blocks including one from behind on Green.

With MJ as primary defender:

Magic 5 points (2/2, 0/0)

With Pippen as primary defender:

Magic 11 points (2/10, 6/6)

The Bulls' team defense did a good job limiting Magic as in Game 4. Pippen was just solid but not spectacular.

[/quote]

When evaluating these numbers as Jordan as the primary defender, I see the total amount of free throw attempts were 17, and field goal attempts were 12. 17 / 2 =8.5 or otherwise 9 possessions. 9 possessions + 12 possessions (the field goal attempts) equal 21 possessions. Magic scored 34 points in 21 of his scoring attempt possessions (we don’t have the total amount of possessions guarded by Jordan). Putting this into true shooting logic, Magic was 87.3% true shooting !!! That’s like +35rTS. Now, I’d imagine what it would look like if Magic guarded Jordan… though, for Jordan to underperform this badly on defense is a bad point for Jordan’s case in the finals. Pippen seemed to do clearly better by your tracking. Heck, this tracking didn’t even take into account how many times Magic created out the post on Jordan due requiring a double or triple team. I think the first post up we see in the finals from Magic leads to Worthy attacking a closeout leading to a open layup, created by Magic’s post gravity on Jordan drawing in Worthy’s defender. This happened a good amount of times. 34 points out of Magic’s 93 points for the series were made on Jordan at +35rTS…

[Djoker]

When evaluating these numbers as Jordan as the primary defender, I see the total amount of free throw attempts were 17, and field goal attempts were 12. 17 / 2 =8.5 or otherwise 9 possessions. 9 possessions + 12 possessions (the field goal attempts) equal 21 possessions. Magic scored 34 points in 21 of his scoring attempt possessions (we don’t have the total amount of possessions guarded by Jordan). Putting this into true shooting logic, Magic was 87.3% true shooting !!! That’s like +35rTS. Now, I’d imagine what it would look like if Magic guarded Jordan… though, for Jordan to underperform this badly on defense is a bad point for Jordan’s case in the finals. Pippen seemed to do clearly better by your tracking. Heck, this tracking didn’t even take into account how many times Magic created out the post on Jordan due requiring a double or triple team. I think the first post up we see in the finals from Magic leads to Worthy attacking a closeout leading to a open layup, created by Magic’s post gravity on Jordan drawing in Worthy’s defender. This happened a good amount of times. 34 points out of Magic’s 93 points for the series were made on Jordan at +35rTS…

Yes Magic was very efficient. However, outside of Game 1, his volume when defended by Jordan was very low. He scored a combined 22 points in those four games on Jordan while taking just 13.08 (10 FGA + 0.44 * 7 FTA) true shot attempts. To take 13.08 true shot attempts in four games is very very little considering MJ by my estimation defended Magic more than half the time he was on the floor. MJ also gambled way less after Game 1, committing just four shooting fouls on Magic in four games while also drawing 2 charges and forcing 3 other turnovers on the Magic man. MJ stayed glued on Magic without reaching in and Magic didn't try to shoot very much. Unfortunately though, the Game 1 performance tends to shape people's memories of Jordan's defense in the series. In reality though, he was quite good defensively after a disastrous Game 1.

And the data I posted earlier is just ON-OFF, not RAPM. For what it's worth, Jordan leads quite comfortably in RAPM for 1991. Magic is in 9th place. Here is a link to the 1991 RAPM:

https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/

[Lebronnygoat]

When evaluating these numbers as Jordan as the primary defender, I see the total amount of free throw attempts were 17, and field goal attempts were 12. 17 / 2 =8.5 or otherwise 9 possessions. 9 possessions + 12 possessions (the field goal attempts) equal 21 possessions. Magic scored 34 points in 21 of his scoring attempt possessions (we don’t have the total amount of possessions guarded by Jordan). Putting this into true shooting logic, Magic was 87.3% true shooting !!! That’s like +35rTS. Now, I’d imagine what it would look like if Magic guarded Jordan… though, for Jordan to underperform this badly on defense is a bad point for Jordan’s case in the finals. Pippen seemed to do clearly better by your tracking. Heck, this tracking didn’t even take into account how many times Magic created out the post on Jordan due requiring a double or triple team. I think the first post up we see in the finals from Magic leads to Worthy attacking a closeout leading to a open layup, created by Magic’s post gravity on Jordan drawing in Worthy’s defender. This happened a good amount of times. 34 points out of Magic’s 93 points for the series were made on Jordan at +35rTS…

Yes Magic was very efficient. However, outside of Game 1, his volume when defended by Jordan was very low. He scored a combined 22 points in those four games on Jordan while taking just 13.08 (10 FGA + 0.44 * 7 FTA) true shot attempts. To take 13.08 true shot attempts in four games is very very little considering MJ by my estimation defended Magic more than half the time he was on the floor. MJ also gambled way less after Game 1, committing just four shooting fouls on Magic in four games while also drawing 2 charges and forcing 3 other turnovers on the Magic man. MJ stayed glued on Magic without reaching in and Magic didn't try to shoot very much. Unfortunately though, the Game 1 performance tends to shape people's memories of Jordan's defense in the series. In reality though, he was quite good defensively after a disastrous Game 1.

And the data I posted earlier is just ON-OFF, not RAPM. For what it's worth, Jordan leads quite comfortably in RAPM for 1991. Magic is in 9th place. Here is a link to the 1991 RAPM:

https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/

Still, that’s 5.5 points per game and Jordan probably defended Magic on 25-30 possessions a game when the possession was planned on Magic doing something with the ball. That’s near his series average per 75.

[Djoker]

When evaluating these numbers as Jordan as the primary defender, I see the total amount of free throw attempts were 17, and field goal attempts were 12. 17 / 2 =8.5 or otherwise 9 possessions. 9 possessions + 12 possessions (the field goal attempts) equal 21 possessions. Magic scored 34 points in 21 of his scoring attempt possessions (we don’t have the total amount of possessions guarded by Jordan). Putting this into true shooting logic, Magic was 87.3% true shooting !!! That’s like +35rTS. Now, I’d imagine what it would look like if Magic guarded Jordan… though, for Jordan to underperform this badly on defense is a bad point for Jordan’s case in the finals. Pippen seemed to do clearly better by your tracking. Heck, this tracking didn’t even take into account how many times Magic created out the post on Jordan due requiring a double or triple team. I think the first post up we see in the finals from Magic leads to Worthy attacking a closeout leading to a open layup, created by Magic’s post gravity on Jordan drawing in Worthy’s defender. This happened a good amount of times. 34 points out of Magic’s 93 points for the series were made on Jordan at +35rTS…

Yes Magic was very efficient. However, outside of Game 1, his volume when defended by Jordan was very low. He scored a combined 22 points in those four games on Jordan while taking just 13.08 (10 FGA + 0.44 * 7 FTA) true shot attempts. To take 13.08 true shot attempts in four games is very very little considering MJ by my estimation defended Magic more than half the time he was on the floor. MJ also gambled way less after Game 1, committing just four shooting fouls on Magic in four games while also drawing 2 charges and forcing 3 other turnovers on the Magic man. MJ stayed glued on Magic without reaching in and Magic didn't try to shoot very much. Unfortunately though, the Game 1 performance tends to shape people's memories of Jordan's defense in the series. In reality though, he was quite good defensively after a disastrous Game 1.

And the data I posted earlier is just ON-OFF, not RAPM. For what it's worth, Jordan leads quite comfortably in RAPM for 1991. Magic is in 9th place. Here is a link to the 1991 RAPM:

https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/

Still, that’s 5.5 points per game and Jordan probably defended Magic on 25-30 possessions a game when the possession was planned on Magic doing something with the ball. That’s near his series average per 75.

By my estimation, Jordan spent about 35-40 possessions per game guarding Magic. If we estimate 37.5 possessions which is exactly half of 75 so a convenient number, that works out to 11 pts/75. And even with 30 possessions per game, that's still only 13.75 pts/75.

[Lebronnygoat]

Yes Magic was very efficient. However, outside of Game 1, his volume when defended by Jordan was very low. He scored a combined 22 points in those four games on Jordan while taking just 13.08 (10 FGA + 0.44 * 7 FTA) true shot attempts. To take 13.08 true shot attempts in four games is very very little considering MJ by my estimation defended Magic more than half the time he was on the floor. MJ also gambled way less after Game 1, committing just four shooting fouls on Magic in four games while also drawing 2 charges and forcing 3 other turnovers on the Magic man. MJ stayed glued on Magic without reaching in and Magic didn't try to shoot very much. Unfortunately though, the Game 1 performance tends to shape people's memories of Jordan's defense in the series. In reality though, he was quite good defensively after a disastrous Game 1.

And the data I posted earlier is just ON-OFF, not RAPM. For what it's worth, Jordan leads quite comfortably in RAPM for 1991. Magic is in 9th place. Here is a link to the 1991 RAPM:

https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/

Still, that’s 5.5 points per game and Jordan probably defended Magic on 25-30 possessions a game when the possession was planned on Magic doing something with the ball. That’s near his series average per 75.

By my estimation, Jordan spent about 35-40 possessions per game guarding Magic. If we estimate 37.5 possessions which is exactly half of 75 so a convenient number, that works out to 11 pts/75. And even with 30 possessions per game, that's still only 13.75 pts/75.

That’s too much, I’m talking about Magic actually having the play designed for him or is taking up a shot when being guarded. Divac and Worthy had good amount of post volume, also am not talking about Magic being guarded by Jordan giving an entry pass to Divac or Worthy as the play was initially designed.

[Djoker]

Still, that’s 5.5 points per game and Jordan probably defended Magic on 25-30 possessions a game when the possession was planned on Magic doing something with the ball. That’s near his series average per 75.

By my estimation, Jordan spent about 35-40 possessions per game guarding Magic. If we estimate 37.5 possessions which is exactly half of 75 so a convenient number, that works out to 11 pts/75. And even with 30 possessions per game, that's still only 13.75 pts/75.

That’s too much, I’m talking about Magic actually having the play designed for him or is taking up a shot when being guarded. Divac and Worthy had good amount of post volume, also am not talking about Magic being guarded by Jordan giving an entry pass to Divac or Worthy as the play was initially designed.

Well series average for Magic is 17.1 pts/75 and over the course of the series he is doing all those things so if we are comparing to that, it makes sense to include all possessions where MJ guards Magic even if Magic passes the ball into the post or whatever else he may do. Of course, a more in depth analysis would also try to look at how Jordan's defense affected Magic's playmaking. For example, we could track his assist %, post entries, good vs. bad passes etc. but I didn't go that far in my tracking.

[OhayoKD]

When evaluating these numbers as Jordan as the primary defender, I see the total amount of free throw attempts were 17, and field goal attempts were 12. 17 / 2 =8.5 or otherwise 9 possessions. 9 possessions + 12 possessions (the field goal attempts) equal 21 possessions. Magic scored 34 points in 21 of his scoring attempt possessions (we don’t have the total amount of possessions guarded by Jordan). Putting this into true shooting logic, Magic was 87.3% true shooting !!! That’s like +35rTS. Now, I’d imagine what it would look like if Magic guarded Jordan… though, for Jordan to underperform this badly on defense is a bad point for Jordan’s case in the finals. Pippen seemed to do clearly better by your tracking. Heck, this tracking didn’t even take into account how many times Magic created out the post on Jordan due requiring a double or triple team. I think the first post up we see in the finals from Magic leads to Worthy attacking a closeout leading to a open layup, created by Magic’s post gravity on Jordan drawing in Worthy’s defender. This happened a good amount of times. 34 points out of Magic’s 93 points for the series were made on Jordan at +35rTS…

Yes Magic was very efficient. However, outside of Game 1, his volume when defended by Jordan was very low.

Isn't that explained by the Bulls giving Jordan more help on Magic in games 2 to 5? If Magic really was creating 17 times a game, I don't know that's a sign of Jordan stopping Magic as much as it's just Magic having more opportunity to create with extra defensive focus on him.

[AEnigma]

Defensive Player of the Year

1. David Robinson
2. Patrick Ewing
3. Hakeem Olajuwon

Uninspiring season for this award with all three going out uncompetitively in the first round (1-9 aggregate record). Robinson has the least forgivable exit of the three by virtue of not losing to the eventual conference winner (or even against a team which was ever particularly close), but he also had the best regular season, with Hakeem missing nearly a third of the year and Ewing’s Knicks floundering in complete mediocrity. Gave some brief thought to Eaton, Pippen, or Rodman, but ultimately I still assess these three superstar bigs as the league’s most valuable and noteworthy defenders.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Tim Hardaway

Could have been Magic’s masterpiece with a healthier team. The Lakers are one of the slowest teams in the league and have shifted toward a more defensive identity… but Magic still has them as a top five offence and brings them right back to the Finals, with a +7 relative offensive rating against the Rockets, a +10 offensive rating against the Warriors, and another +7 relative offensive rating against the Blazers. Wheels fall off against the Bulls but I place minimal blame for that on Magic — although as always, it is the potential downside of providing offensive lift through passing rather than through scoring.

Great Jordan season, but the sudden elevation to historic offence is very evidently independent of Jordan’s own production.

And Hardaway takes third as primary initiator on a strong Warriors offence which blows away the league’s best defence. There are a lot of creators who could have theoretically generated similar success playing alongside Richmond and Mullin, but Hardaway was the one who actually did.

Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. David Robinson
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Scottie Pippen

Underwhelming results from most stars outside the top two, who truly tower over this season. I am sympathetic to those taking or considering Magic over Jordan. Through three rounds I think he had a strong case, and the Finals is easy to excuse based on team context. But while the 2015 Finals analogy is interesting, here I think much more highly of Jordan’s performance (relative to Steph’s) and less highly of Magic’s (relative to Lebron’s), and I cannot get myself to a spot where I felt Magic truly outperformed Jordan in that series. I can tell myself Jordan played better in large part because of favourable team context, but the key point there is still that he played better.

David Robinson is something of a default third pick. Hits that “weak MVP” level as the Spurs exceed a 60-win pace at full-strength. Bad loss to the Warriors, but when the other team is outscoring you from the perimetre by 13 points a game, that is a pretty steep deficit for one defensive big to overcome. And with no one else achieving anything of note in the postseason, I suppose he can take advantage of the rare instance where he is not explicitly brought down by his own postseason performance.

Hakeem’s missed time pulls him below Robinson on my ballot, but not far enough to entertain anyone else ahead of him. I penalise missed time more for the offensive/defensive awards — and Barkley, the top honourable mention, missed a large chunk of the season too but was gifted a comically easier first round opponent. If we want to talk about support, no one on the Rockets stepped up against the Lakers the way Hersey Hawkins on the 76ers did against the Bucks and Bulls, and the Rockets as a collective around Hakeem performed even worse than the Spurs collective did around Robinson.

Finally, Pippen rounds out the ballot for being the most significant change in the Bulls’ ascension. I think he was outright better than Drexler (although next year I will defer slightly to Drexler for stepping up his play) and anyone on the Pistons (now that Isiah’s injuries had fully ended his postseason prime), and no other team or star had any real relevance or accomplishments of note this season.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Magic Johnson
2 - Charles Barkley
3 - Michael Jordan
4 - Scottie Pippen
5 - Robinson

Yeah I didn't come here thinking Magic would be getting all these 1's from me but lets be honest. His guys have put the most effort here and that efforts convinced me that he might be the best player period. He looks like the most valuable which sorry to KD fans usually means you're the best and with a weak and injured team he's going to the finals and balling against a superteam. Honestly best thing people could come up with last year was he lost early. Well in 91 he makes it all the way to the finals when he shouldn't have. Not that tough of a #1 for me honestly.

Honestly i can swap 2 and 3 but I need an explanation for how Barkley had a 10 point better true shooting when they faced each other. If MJ's defense isn't all that anymore and the Bulls defense is much better and defenders are more focused on him than a 10 point difference is kind of crazy. Rim protection matters alot too according to everyone here so I think Barkley doing more is worth something.

Can't really back Drob top 2 or top 3 though. 3-1 in the first round to a team with 10 less wins? really? Think it was pretty well explained last thread the regular season thing wasn't just Drob and that's a pretty big collapse. No one's put him higher yet, but feel like Pippen doing the most to turn the Bulls from very good to one of the best teams ever is more impressive.

Defensive Player of the Year
1 - Pippen
2 - David Robinson
3 - Hakeem

Offensive Player of the Year
1 - Magic
2 - Barkley
3 - Jordan

[OhayoKD]

First, I think Djoker and Lebronnygoat deserve a shoutout for doing far more tracking work than anyone else for this project covering entire series and playoff runs as opposed to me creating whole threads for patches of games and game highlights. Needless to say, I think the former has been a great value to this POY and fwiw, I think the latter would be a great addition as well. With that out of the way

Voting Post

1. Magic Johnson
2. Micheal Jordan

My intention was to give Jordan three straight #1's here but as I've noted, there was an opening for Magic if someone was willing to make the case. Two someones did:

Spoiler:

The team’s really fallen apart in 1991, especially in the playoffs. And yet..
3 less wins than one of the most loaded squads ever in the Bulls
11-3 against the conference including a gentleman’s sweep of Hakeem and 2 wins to close out the series vs Portland with Worthy injured (29% efg in game 6).
And a game 1 win against Chicago. Until Worthy reaggravated his leg in the 2nd half of game 3, it looked an even series.
James, the one from Akron, is a pretty natural comparison here. Was Steph better than Lebron in 2015? I don’t think so. Magic doesn’t quite get as many ridiculous wins and his team is less injured, but the competition is also better. And ultimately, I’m impressed more by Magic doing what he had no business doing, than I am by what anyone else did that season. Obviously the data backs him. This team was worse than the 88 one by a margin and that team was bad if you want to be statistical about it.
But I’m most at home with tape and the tape tells me it’s the same Magic I voted 1 earlier. That team didn’t have any business making the finals and getting 3 wins within another unlikely title. But they did. That’s why they call him “Magic’.

This year is obviously up to Magic or Jordan, let’s dive into who had the better year…
Regular Season
I think Magic wins this one, by a wider gap then he did in 1989, or at least it’s an equivalent gap. I feel as if Jordan was LeBron-esq in terms of coasting this regular season and amped up his offense come playoff time. Magic, however, kept being the same playmaker he always was, but it’s also the most refined he’s ever been in the half court with an improved post game while still being that goat level fast break player. His scoring production dipped by 3 point, though it’s also the most efficient he has ever been. Jordan’s scoring production also dipped, and his playmaking.
Playoffs
I believe Magic had the better first two rounds of the playoffs, as he rises vs a 52 win team and the 2nd best defense in the league, and Jordan translates vs a 39 win team and the 12th best defense in the league. 2nd round, Magic rises vs a 44 win team and 23rd ranked defense in the league, and Jordan drops vs a 52 win team and 16th best defense in the league. The level of offensive output these two displayed vs their respective 2nd round opponents shouldn’t really take into consideration the level of defense they played considering both were below league average. 3rd round, Magic translates vs a 63 win team and 3rd best defense in the league, and Jordan rises vs a 50 win team and 4th best defense in the league. Bare in mind, the DPOY of this team only played 18MPG in the final two games of this 4 game series vs 34MPG in the regular season, and their two best big men defenders (James Edwards and Laimbeer) only played ~20MPG in the final two games of this series. While, Laimbeer averages 33MPG in the regular season. Not to mention, Zeke was heavily restricted this series in terms of what he can do, dealing with a sprained ankle from last round and a fractured wrist he’s wearing a cast for. Why are the last two games important, you might ask? Well, because in game 1, that was their best defenders playing their average course of minutes, and Jordan had his worst game of the series or maybe playoff run. 23 points, 53% true shooting. Game 2, however, his play must be acknowledged, dropping 35 on 67% true shooting. Though, what we’re really left here with is very black and white in terms of, how good is Jordan against a true Pistons team. But altogether, this should still be considered a rise. Magic had to face a tougher challenge, going up against a clearly better defense and still being able to create at ATG levels, and be a goat level playmaker when you add in his passing and fast break. Scoring translated. For the 3rd round, Jordan probably will take this. Though, it is more impressive for Magic to get past that 63 win Portland team vs Jordan sweeping that 50 win, deteriorating Detroit team. It’s close, you can’t deny that.
In the Finals, both were at the same efficiency. Jordan indeed did rise, and Magic arguably did, but probably did not. Given that Magic was better in the regular season, it still doesn’t inherently mean Jordan was better. Jordan was able to combine ATG scoring and great playmaking (I tracked 11 creations for teammates per game). Magic was able go combine elite scoring, and goat level playmaking (I tracked 17 creations for teammates per game), but Magic is a special case, where the volume of creations don’t need to be in the 20’s, because his other plethora of tools (see spoiler) as a playmaker contributes to a team’s offense. As for defense, Jordan was giving up open shots or fouling too much on Magic, so defense in terms of impact probably shouldn’t be propped up here as a big needle mover in the finals. But for the conference finals, that can be used as a fair point, hence why I’d give Jordan that round.

You can quite literally watch Magic creating several more open shots than Jordan on average. You can also watch Magic having far better interior reads, far better perimeter reads, far better outlet passing, far better passing ie passing angles, velocity, versatility of passes (lay downs, pocket passing, wrap around passing, kick out passing, ect.). He’s also far better with capitalizing off preset advantages, better passing turnover economy and better quality of creations. He’s also pushing the break at insane levels no one has in the history of basketball, which is why the Pacers were so historically good last year at offense before Halliburton started to plummet as a player and get injured (it’s because he loved getting out into transition). So while he is having the benefit of 3 on 2 situations, he’s sort of the catalyst as to why they’re in these situations that almost automatically lead to buckets. He’s the better on court coach offensively too, I mean, a cool tidbit I’ve seen from Magic was his ability to create illegal defensive calls, though it probably didn’t happen every game. It’s just to show his mind over the game might be bar none.

Overall
I think Magic and Jordan have interesting arguments, but as a better player and season, give me the Magic Man…

Two things stand out here.

1. A big big difference in tracked creation quantity for the finals. 17 vs 11. That's about the same gap as here from the same source:

Spoiler:

Playoff Creation:
Hakeem 1986-1990: ~6
Bird 1984-1988: ~6
Jordan 1987-1993: ~10
Magic 1987-1991: ~16

If you are going to argue Jordan truly peaked in 91, I think playmaking really has to be at the crux of that case. And for playmaking to function here with Jordan yielding less defensive attention than he did earlier...it needs to be an advantage in quantity. Yet in the series he averaged the most assists, that advantage is potentially non-existent. Pair that with a defensive drop-off (what BbB, colts, djoker, and falco have counted don't really paint first-three-peat Jordan as the same elite guard we credit him as to end the 80s), and his scoring effeciency against multiple unimpressive defenses (granted their best defender played full minutes), and I'm pretty confident 91 Jordan played worse than 89/90 Jordan in spite of the final result.

2. If we' stick to the data, what the Lakers did as a team this year is unlikely to have occured short of the other MJ having one of the most valuable seasons ever.

This is pretty much a shell of the team that went -3.8 without Magic in 88 and +0.4 without Magic for his career. Do I truly think a Magic-less Lakers team would be trending to -4 in his absence over 82 games? No. But what I think is not what is shown and even if you curve those up, the iteration of the Lakers we see in the postseason- when the games are actually played and Magic's best teammates trend towards being a liability in multiple critical games due to injuries entirely out of Magic or Jordan's control to prevent; should not have even been in the finals for Jordan to outplay him. And while I'm pretty okay giving Jordan the nod for that specific series, it should be noted that the Bulls simply being undeniable and destined to threepeat (technically every champion is destined to win, but you get the gist), became alot stronger after the series finished with the hindsight of the Bulls battering a Lakers team significantly battered independently of what Jordan did.

Spoiler:

First, this was an even finals series.

Chicago as -200, so a slight favourite.

We’ll never know what the odds were excluding Worthy’s ankle issue as It was always baked in.

Worthy hurt his ankle in gm 5 of the WCF vs Portland.

He continued to play but was ineffective with 12 points and 8 points.

He averaged 21.4 PPG for the year, the Lakers' leading scorer.

Regular season GameScore was 15.6.

Games 5 & 6 in the WCF, 4.2.

As we headed into the 1991 Finals his ankle was a major topic.

Rest between the finals games was a key factor mentioned in the series.

Game 1: after 3 days rest

Gm 2: after 3 days rest

Gm 3 and 4: after 2 days rest

Games 1 & 2 should’ve been his best games.

They were.

The Lakers won in game 1 when MJ missed a last second shot

Worthy looked ok and played 45 min while scoring 22 on 24 shots.

He only had 3 rebounds and one assist below his 5/3 season avg.

The Lakers saw trouble when he tweaked the ankle again in the 4th.

He got rest and work on the ankle between games and walked through practices.

The Bulls won game 2 by 21, with Pippen guarding Magic.

Worthy looked good and felt better with 40 min, 24 pts on 17 shots, 5 rebounds.

3 days of rest worked but it was now a thing of the past.


Game 3 is where things turn right at halftime.

Through the first half, Worthy scored 15, and the Lakers were down by 1.

To this point, the series was dead even 1-1, with 1 point separating them at halftime and Worthy averaging the equivalent of 24 PPG with the Lakers taking home court.


The game went to OT with the Bulls winning.

In the 2nd half, Worthy started limping as he scored 4 points in H2 and OT combined.

He also got one rebound in the game Worthy wasn’t an elite rebounder, but the Lakers got killed on the boards, 46-29 and they set a record for fewest rebounds.


At this point, Worthy was toast.

Worthy himself was saying he couldn’t cut, and that all he could do was try to get in the way when it came to rebounds.

As noted, he was visibly limping, and even Dunleavy pointed out he was “dragging.”


So Game 3 was impacted by Worthy’s injury.

In Game 4, Worthy played 31 minutes, scoring 12 points on 16 shots and he took himself out, saying he couldn’t contribute.

He didn’t play game 5.

Before game 5, Magic summarized the situation as even he said Worthy “can’t defend.”

Even then with LA's injuries it was a 1 pt game in game 1, an OT game in game 3, and the Lakers were up 3 in game 5 with 5 minutes to play, without either Worthy or Scott.


It was Magic's last hurrah and it would have been interesting to see with a fully healthy team if he could have pulled off what Bird did to him in 1984.

Watch on YouTube

Magic having the only victory over a Jordan led team in the finals to go along with his 6 rings and 4 finals MVP's most likely. leapfrogs him over Kareem.


It also would be interesting to see what Magic's response would be if he could flip one finals result that he lost in his favour.

1989 gives him a three peat

1984 ensures that he beat Bird in every H2H they had from collage to the pros.

Three of those games came down to single digits. Two of the losses. Over both the losses and those 3 games Magic posted...

100% TS
54% TS
58% TS

Jordan posted

60% TS
47% TS
56% TS

One of these players faced an ATG playoff defense featuring the best defensive wing of the era, if not all-time, while demanding significantly more defensive attention than anyone else on the court. The other player was Micheal Jordan.

In 2 of those 3 games (the less efficient ones), both Grant and Pippen shot better than Jordan did. The natural counterpoint is to highlight Jordan's scoring volume advantage (63 points!), but those 63 points came from nearly twice as many field goal attempts and I do wonder just how many of those extra shot-attempts were misses his teammates stood a better chance to covert, as well as how many of those makes were makes another Bull would have also made.

I don't really wonder that with Magic, and to me that difference is important.

I'd still say Jordan was better, the blowouts count too, but I don't see a big gap, and I certainly see questions.

Weighed against 3 rounds I'd prefer Magic, after a 3rd straight regular-season where the Lakers won more than I think they had any right to...I'll take Magic over Air. One last time.

3. Pippen

I think this about covers it:

Spoiler:

Finally Pippen. He’s kind of already this in 1990 but in 91 it’s polished. In the postseason, maybe as polished as it’ll ever be. He’s the best rim-protector. Or at worst a close second. He’s the best man defender. By far. He’s the best help defender. By Far. He’s the floor-general, both sides. He’s the primary ball-handler. And he’s as much of a creator as Jordan is. And yet many will balk reading this vote. Like we didn’t see him outscore Jordan’s biggest nemesis the year Jordan left. He’s extremely easy to play next to for the majority of stars, yet can take over as the 1. See: 1994 and 1995. See: The first 2 games of these Eastern Conference Finals. The common stats only care about the scoring the times you pass to the scorer and the times you touch the ball as a defender. So they say Pippen shouldn’t be so high. But this is a useless approach to evaluating Scottie. A guy who does just about everything that isn’t there really really well.
When Jordan gets his average to 30 against Detroit, it’s on the back of the Pistons trying to blitz him in the last phase of game 2. Why? Because they are 15 points behind. An overwhelming disadvantage in the 90s. Why are they 15 points behind? Because while Jordan slept walk for a second straight game, Pippen crushed detroit. Pressing them full-court. Ramming their defenders at the basket. Creating boatloads for his teammates.
It didn’t show up in BPM, but it showed up where it needed to. In the wins. Jordan’s best years are behind him. Yet Chicago’s best years are ahead. Pippen is why, and more than worthy of my vote.

4. Barkley
Praise to the Chuckster for an impressive scoring performance vs the best scorer of at least the last 50 years. But I think Jordan is a better playmaker(beyond what assists suggest) and I'm doubtful those extra pounds really outweigh Jordan jumping higher when it comes to protecting the paint. Show me evidence regarding one of those two attributes and I'm open to a higher evaluation. Of course that'll probably be more relevant two threads from now with Jordan looking truly mortal and Ewing (to me) a relative unknown.

5. David Robinson

A 1-3 loss to a 45-win isn't moving me and I think enigma did an excellent job contextualizing that +10 turnaround from his rookie year. "but the offense doesn't show great impact" as a response to "look at the overall impact demonstrated" is pretty weak. But par for the course I guess

[homecourtloss]

1. Jordan

Less motor and perhaps a slight downgrade in athleticism, but an overall smoother game in which he was in complete control and at his peak along with 1990. I would say that over the first three playoff series and the overall seasons given what Magic was working with, that it could be neck and neck, but Jordan’s finals series puts it away even though Jordan clearly had a better cast and that Pippen by now was a perennial top 5 player. Magic himself when commentating in the 1992 playoffs talked about Pippen and Jordan as if they were the two best players on the world, which makes sense in so far as thinking back to how well Pippen defended Magic and of course Jordan in the close out game in The Finals series. It’s a credit to Jordan that he bought into what Jackson was doing with Pippen which helped unlock the Bulls on offense. The massive leap from 1990 when Jordan was about the same and the Bulls had perfect health in both 1990 and 1991 (that continuity really helped) really speaks as well to Jackson as a coach and how well suited Pippen and Grant were in their roles.

2.Magic
The Lakers shouldn’t have been in the finals but Magic pulls out vintage magic stuff vs. the Blazers and overall has an amazing season with a less than stellar cast. Vlade Divac added defense to this team in his second d year and would prove to be a + player for a decade to come.

3. DRob
Hard to ignore the imapct signals and the solidity of his two-way game.

4. Hakeem
Had another Hakeem year with a good series vs. the Lakers with many highlight blocks out of nowhere but the team was so outclassed by Magic’s lakers and even though that’s not Hakeems fault, I can’t go higher here,

5. Pippen
His ascension as a playmaker improved the Bulls’ offense and his ascension as a best in the world type perimeter defender in an era devoid of grest perimeter defenders and an incredible playoff run make my pick here.

Barkley, Drexler and others could be here, but I’d take Pippen.

[One_and_Done]

I think people in 1991 would have been generally surprised at the view that Magic was better than peak Michael Jordan.

I keep hearing Magic had a bad support cast. Did he though? Worthy, Perkins, Scott, AC Green, Divac, etc. These were good players, who brought balance too. 3 of those guys made the all-star team, and while those were fluke selections mostly it should be noted these were really good role players.

The next year they dropped from 58 wins to 43 without Magic, and that's with Worthy and Divac playing only 54 and 36 games respectively. Perkins missed time too. That feels about right. Magic had a huge impact, but he by no means had a weak support cast.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think people in 1991 would have been generally surprised at the view that Magic was better than peak Michael Jordan.

I keep hearing Magic had a bad support cast. Did he though? Worthy, Perkins, Scott, AC Green, Divac, etc. These were good players, who brought balance too. 3 of those guys made the all-star team, and while those were fluke selections mostly it should be noted these were really good role players.

The next year they dropped from 58 wins to 43 without Magic, and that's with Worthy and Divac playing only 54 and 36 games respectively. Perkins missed time too. That feels about right. Magic had a huge impact, but he by no means had a weak support cast.

The bolded changed a lot over the course of that finals tbh. Going into those finals Magic had 5 rings and MJ still had 0 and no one knew at the time that 90-91 was peak MJ. Had the Lakers won that series I think we'd be mostly voting Magic #1 for that year. So no one was really sitting around asking whether 1990 Magic was better than peak MJ. I do think that those finals clearly swung 'best player in the nba/world' to MJ almost beyond a doubt and that's sort of confirmed by some of the things Magic has said afterwards but its prob not a huge gap and I don't think its crazy if someone wants to argue for Magic even though I'd have MJ at #1 from 90-92(93 quite possibly).

[One_and_Done]

I think people in 1991 would have been generally surprised at the view that Magic was better than peak Michael Jordan.

I keep hearing Magic had a bad support cast. Did he though? Worthy, Perkins, Scott, AC Green, Divac, etc. These were good players, who brought balance too. 3 of those guys made the all-star team, and while those were fluke selections mostly it should be noted these were really good role players.

The next year they dropped from 58 wins to 43 without Magic, and that's with Worthy and Divac playing only 54 and 36 games respectively. Perkins missed time too. That feels about right. Magic had a huge impact, but he by no means had a weak support cast.

The bolded changed a lot over the course of that finals tbh. Going into those finals Magic had 5 rings and MJ still had 0 and no one knew at the time that 90-91 was peak MJ. Had the Lakers won that series I think we'd be mostly voting Magic #1 for that year. So no one was really sitting around asking whether 1990 Magic was better than peak MJ. I do think that those finals clearly swung 'best player in the nba/world' to MJ almost beyond a doubt and that's sort of confirmed by some of the things Magic has said afterwards but its prob not a huge gap and I don't think its crazy if someone wants to argue for Magic even though I'd have MJ at #1 from 90-92(93 quite possibly).

If we're looking at what people thought pre-finals, then nobody pre-finals thought the Bulls had a better support cast than Magic had. Pippen had made 1 all-star team and that was it. There were some other players seen as ok on the Bulls, but not much more. Magic had then 6 time all-star and 2 time all-nba teamer James Worthy, and a bunch of good role players who were mostly known quantities. Byron Scott was far better regarded than anyone else on the Bulls.

[falcolombardi]

DPOY

1-hakeem. Not necesarrily as supported by data but i think he is easily #1 in ability among the era bigs

2-robinson. Led a more impressive season than ewing albeit either choice would be fine. Robinson ks generally a superior athlete even against physical prime ewing

3- ewing. Another legitimate anchor at his physical prime, pribably a better overall defender then than when knicks defense peaked

HM:
buck williams, perenially strong defensive signals and helped blazers be a very strong defense albeit in a fairly good defensive cast around
Scottie pippen as beat non big of the era and a outlier of impact for a guy who didnt really play as a rim protector

OPOY

1-magic: the 91 lakers were a far cry from the showtime cast with a unstopabble scoring partner as kareem. But magic, a strong scoring wing (worthy) and some moderate offense talents like a young divac led another elite offense.

2-jordan 89-92 jordan is probably the best convo of offense amd defense in jordan career. And 91 is one of his more efficient scoring runs within that. Impressive as hell regular season offense too

3- barkley. I am not necesarrily a huge fan of his as a player as far as building a contender goes...but his scoring prime -was- a pretty crazy outlier as well as a solid enough passer to run some offense out of that scoring threat. That his rebounding added plenty of off ball value for a non spacer is a nice cherry on top

POY

1-jordan. I think the gap between him and magic may be overstated a lot based on the finals results (vs a injured lakers to boot) and underate the fact pippen was a cleae cut 3rd best player on the floor

That said. I think jordan plus defense is generally a bit more valuable than magic slightly superior offense or offense ceiling in a majority of circunstances for the time

2-magic same as above. 2nd most succesful team, at worst the league 3rd best player in my view

3- hakeem. At minimum the 3rd best player of the league that year. A monster player in a very limited team

4- robinson. I dont think he was necesarrily a better player than ewing ot barkley
But the combined success as a rookie, team record and solid playoff run to almost make the wcf edge him out a place there

5-barkley: similar to hakeem in that he is a great player in a weak team with unimprrssive team results. But i am a whole level highwr on hakeem as a team anchor

HM: ewing, drexler are both fairly decent picks for a honorable mention