2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread

[CobraCommander]

Giannis is avg 32 12 and 6 and they almost back to 500.

He deserves to be in the conversation- at least top 5 right now

Jokic 1 Tatum SGA and AD. Then Giannis

[Packbuckman]

Dame is at least shooting better. Their defense are close to the same right now. Let just put it this way if you swapped Murray and Dame. The Nuggets would be in first no question

Please give me Dame. If Murray and Dame are close then swap them. Bucks can take Murray.

Current Dame is still on another tier over Murray. It's not close.

If by the last few games he has been with over 10 assists a game shooting wise for season are almost identical. He hopefully realizes Giannis is the best player and gets him the ball for easy assists. Before that was one of the reason for the slow start and Doc coaching playing players like Pat over Ajax who’s a difference maker on D.

[mademan]

If Nuggets get a top 4 seed, its Jokic and not really close. Im not sure who else you would give it to over him

West is tough tho and i dont really see Nuggets finishing top 4. So probably Shai?

I'd say Tatum as of today. For Jokic, it'll be games played and possibly team wins. He's playing so well that I wouldn't even say they have to be top four. But as of exactly this morning, Tatum is a good choice, imo.

I dont see a case currently for Tatum over Shai. Shai's playing better in a tougher conference with a similar record missing his third best player.

[scrabbarista]

If Nuggets get a top 4 seed, its Jokic and not really close. Im not sure who else you would give it to over him

West is tough tho and i dont really see Nuggets finishing top 4. So probably Shai?

I'd say Tatum as of today. For Jokic, it'll be games played and possibly team wins. He's playing so well that I wouldn't even say they have to be top four. But as of exactly this morning, Tatum is a good choice, imo.

I dont see a case currently for Tatum over Shai. Shai's playing better in a tougher conference with a similar record missing his third best player.

Saying "I don't see a case" is a stretch. I see a case for SGA, but believe Tatum has played better.

Anyway, my current vote in the poll is with Tatum, but I'm assuming that games played is probably the only thing that can keep me from settling on Jokic. The SGA/Tatum thing may be a moot discussion by tomorrow morning, never mind the season's end.

[mademan]

I'd say Tatum as of today. For Jokic, it'll be games played and possibly team wins. He's playing so well that I wouldn't even say they have to be top four. But as of exactly this morning, Tatum is a good choice, imo.

I dont see a case currently for Tatum over Shai. Shai's playing better in a tougher conference with a similar record missing his third best player.

Saying "I don't see a case" is a stretch. I see a case for SGA, but believe Tatum has played better.

Anyway, my current vote in the poll is with Tatum, but I'm assuming that games played is probably the only thing that can keep me from settling on Jokic. The SGA/Tatum thing may be a moot discussion by tomorrow morning, never mind the season's end.

SGA out paces him in basically every advanced metric and they have a similar record with him playing in a tougher conference and missing his third best player. Ya, Tatum has a tough case over Shai

[Wolfgang630]

The biggest negative for me with Tatum is he’s got the easiest path of anyone. He can play like crap and the team will carry him to the win with NO problems like last night. That’s not an MVP.

[scrabbarista]

I dont see a case currently for Tatum over Shai. Shai's playing better in a tougher conference with a similar record missing his third best player.

Saying "I don't see a case" is a stretch. I see a case for SGA, but believe Tatum has played better.

Anyway, my current vote in the poll is with Tatum, but I'm assuming that games played is probably the only thing that can keep me from settling on Jokic. The SGA/Tatum thing may be a moot discussion by tomorrow morning, never mind the season's end.

SGA out paces him in basically every advanced metric and they have a similar record with him playing in a tougher conference and missing his third best player. Ya, Tatum has a tough case over Shai

Most of the metrics are close - especially the impact ones.

Which players aren't playing isn't really an argument, becsuse it ignores who is playing. (For example, if Team USA is missing its third-best player and Team Slovenia isn't... well, context is needed. It's a meaningless statement without context, because it ignores who is playing.)

Tougher conference is also a weak argument, though not completely irrelevant. Fair point, but also requires context to be meaningful. I'll give it to you as shorthand.

The Celtics still have the marginally better record and Tatum is still playing marginally more. Most of the basic numbers (scoring, TS%, assists) are neck and neck, but Tatum rebounds more and is in my opinion a better defender. [That is based on previous seasons, as I haven't seen enough of them this year to note any changes on that end.]

To look at their profiles and say there is no case for Tatum is a stretch. He's at 27.8% on the bbref tracker with SGA at 17.8% right now. Jalen Williams is ninth at 3.6%, which belies the idea that SGA is having to carry more of a load (as does the fact that SGA plays fewer minutes per game than Tatum). They have comparable cases, and they're reasonable choices - until Jokic plays more games.

[Wolfgang630]

Giannis is avg 32 12 and 6 and they almost back to 500.

He deserves to be in the conversation- at least top 5 right now

Jokic 1 Tatum SGA and AD. Then Giannis

I’ll give Giannis 5 because he’s been that good. Team record just has to get better and I can move him up.

[Exp0sed]

/quote]

The team that Curry played on was literally last the year prior. If we are going by the argument of raising a bad team that has been used multiple times by Jokic fans then and since Curry had the better case.

Curry was better (unless you perceive box score as the end all be all and I imagine you don't) at least by EPM. Curry was also the one being watched playing in like 5 of the top 10 viewed games that season.

they were last the season prior but they turned that season but they were also playing G-league players, it's not like they played 2020 with 5 guys and then in 2021 played 4 of those + Curry and that was the difference

regardless, Curry is a top 10 player all-time, his impact is immense and was immense that season. why choose EPM and not other metrics? it's suffice to say both he and Jokic had comparable impact and Jokic had better raw numbers, less help, a higher seed and he played 14% more games. did Curry have 14% more EPM than Jokic that season? cuz that's what he'd need to close the gap created by the games played by each. MVP is a cummlative award and Jokic was better that season in that regard

Curry should've finished 2nd, but even the fact he finished 3rd in voting despite being only an 8th seed goes to show ya that the voters certainly appreciated his great individual season, despite the team being just so and so

[Wolfgang630]

Read on Twitter

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[RB34]

If Nuggets get a top 4 seed, its Jokic and not really close. Im not sure who else you would give it to over him

West is tough tho and i dont really see Nuggets finishing top 4. So probably Shai?

I'd say Tatum as of today. For Jokic, it'll be games played and possibly team wins. He's playing so well that I wouldn't even say they have to be top four. But as of exactly this morning, Tatum is a good choice, imo.

I dont see a case currently for Tatum over Shai. Shai's playing better in a tougher conference with a similar record missing his third best player.

Who do you think is missing from the Celtics?

Wilful ignorance.

[BruttoNostra]

It doesn’t look good to keep missing games. It’s over a week and a half unless there’s problems with the baby or mother.

You're a cool dude and I And1 you all the time, but come on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult you, and most of the below response will be for plenty of other similar comments by other posters over the years, so again, don't take it personally:)

Now, even in the corporate America it's common for fathers to get an extended paternity leave. A minimum of 1-2 month is a standard for FAANG and other tier1/2 companies. I work for such a company (not in the US, but our local policy is pretty similar to what's provided in US headquarters), many fathers stop their super-duper important work for 2 months and nothing bad happens to their product or their yearly performance review.
Jokic just became a father (for the second time, right?). As a father myself I can't think of a more shocking/happy/stressful/once in a life experience (even for the second time). I was with my wife for 2 weeks, and then worked part-time for about 2 months, and it wasn't enough, believe me.

Jokic isn't Zion or Antman, it's not just baby mama #3 for him and a kid he will never see beyond maybe court hearings for child support or something. His wife isn't just an OF prize celebrity for him he "dated" for 2 weeks.
Believe me, Jokic and any reasonable person would trade all MVPs and rings in the world for the wellbeing of his family, especially since he's already settled financially for a few generations at least.
So he took a week and a half to be with them. And then arrived in time for the Mavs game. Hey, I hope he won't travel outside Denver and will play only home games for next X days or weeks. F*** that MVP award, it was enough compromized in 2023. Jokic already won something 1000x more important this year and I applaud to him for showing where his priorities are.

End of the rant.

[Infinite Llamas]

I would argue moving Tatum as the lead MVP candidate. This loss put Denver slightly closer to .500.

Tatum shot 0-10 on 3 tonight and he was an absolute non factor. His team is so stacked he doesn’t need to perform high every night to win games. It’s the biggest thing hurting his mvp case…these random off nights.

He had a rough game shooting but was not a non factor. 9 boards, 8 assists, 2 steals and was a team high +20. To the big reason he is an MVP level player is his ability to affect the game in every aspect. That said SGA is probably ahead of him at this point.

Yeah, I do think calling him a non factor was a little harsh. He got his teammates plenty involved but every time I see him or Brown jacking up 3’s I’m left to wonder if these shots would be better outsourced to better shooters. Tatum isn’t a good enough shooter to take 10 3’s a night. He simply isn’t. And Boston has guys like Al and Hauser and Pritchard and White that are much more capable shooters. Tatum could average 10 assists if he relied on his teammates a bit more at the sake of sacrificing his own shots. Boston has so many weapons that we don’t really need Brown or Tatum to ever shoot 20 shots. Tatum is at his best when he drives and at his worst when he settles for garbage threes.

I just can’t see the east being rewarded with MVP this year because of the difference in conference talent but maybe I’m wrong.

[WarriorGM]

they were last the season prior but they turned that season but they were also playing G-league players, it's not like they played 2020 with 5 guys and then in 2021 played 4 of those + Curry and that was the difference

regardless, Curry is a top 10 player all-time, his impact is immense and was immense that season. why choose EPM and not other metrics? it's suffice to say both he and Jokic had comparable impact and Jokic had better raw numbers, less help, a higher seed and he played 14% more games. did Curry have 14% more EPM than Jokic that season? cuz that's what he'd need to close the gap created by the games played by each. MVP is a cummlative award and Jokic was better that season in that regard

Curry should've finished 2nd, but even the fact he finished 3rd in voting despite being only an 8th seed goes to show ya that the voters certainly appreciated his great individual season, despite the team being just so and so

Yeah Curry didn't play with the 2020 guys—he was forced to play with an arguably even worse bunch—that's what happens when a lot of hope is pinned on a rookie who played all of 3 college games and who graded out on RAPTOR as the worst player in the previous 5 years to play significant minutes. So as dire as Jokic fans painted the help he had at the time which you seem to believe with your "less help" comment Curry actually has the stronger case there.

Why EPM and not another metric? It doesn't really matter. We know with Curry he has historic record setting level winning impact. With Jokic, despite claims he should be going for his 5th MVP this year, I'm still kind of dubious it's at the historic level people claim. Curry in his various seasons has shown different arguments for why he should be MVP. Leading a team to the best record in the league? Check. Producing an amazing statistical season? Check. Leading teams that people thought had no business being talked about into relevance? Check. Jokic in comparison has basically presented the same argument each time. I didn't really see Jokic play much in 2021 but I did see his games against the Warriors. Curry was the best player on the floor.

If you want to use the wins argument—remember that at the end of this season.

[CobraCommander]

Giannis is avg 32 12 and 6 and they almost back to 500.

He deserves to be in the conversation- at least top 5 right now

Jokic 1 Tatum SGA and AD. Then Giannis

I’ll give Giannis 5 because he’s been that good. Team record just has to get better and I can move him up.

He at it again!

[Magic Giannison]

Team record matters for anyone else but Jokic apparently, same for defense.

[playa-hater]

The thing about the joker is I think he is far away the MVP favorite and I don't even see anyone getting close. The load that he has to carry night in and night out has to be more than anyone. But when you factor in his individual success it is quite unbelievable. He has been carrying a load.Probably more than any player I can think of in the 2000s.

I think denver would have to have an epic collapse and not make the playoffs. And even then what Joker is doing is just so remarkable.

[Infinite Llamas]

Team record matters for anyone else but Jokic apparently, same for defense.

Giannis is 8-8
Jokic is 7-4

I don’t see what the controversy is here

[Wolfgang630]

I probably gotta ignore Bucks fans lol. Not sure what to tell you. Joker is better than Giannis as a MVP candidate.

[Magic Giannison]

Team record matters for anyone else but Jokic apparently, same for defense.

Giannis is 8-8
Jokic is 7-4

I don’t see what the controversy is here

See stats and stats , 0 context 0 basketball talk.

When Jokic record with Denver was 10th seed in the west record didn't matter. It ws his teammates that sucked, it was always something besides him but for anyone else they took full accountability no matter the teams situation.

Greatest scorer in the last decade, plays amazing defense, arguably even better than his dpoy year but you go on throw in random irrelevant nitpicked stats.


You guys would would've crowned him GOAT if he was doing what Giannis does now.