RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[ScrantonBulls]

Larry Russell really giving Bledredwine a run for his money for worst collection of posts in this thread.

Sometimes I wonder if their arguments and logic are trolling/a bit, or if they are truly so insecure and angry regarding LeBron that they become completely separated from reality when evaluating him. Some of the takes are so devoid of logic. It's something you would expect from Skip Bayless - and everybody knows he is trolling and doing it for views.

I've never seen a player illicit this type of negative emotional response from people to the point where they completely abandon logic. It's a sight to behold.

[Rust_Cohle]

I feel like I’d take 10 years of Jokic over 10 years of LeBron. LeBron record against him is shocking.

[balrog27]

lol average age on this forum must be 45 or some ****

[Rust_Cohle]

lol average age on this forum must be 45 or some ****

And they’ve watched a lot of basketball in fairness.

[Iwasawitness]

I feel like I’d take 10 years of Jokic over 10 years of LeBron. LeBron record against him is shocking.

[bledredwine]

I feel like I’d take 10 years of Jokic over 10 years of LeBron. LeBron record against him is shocking.

Same.
What Jokic lacks on defense, he makes up for with his all around game. He can score in so many ways.


Give him a second fiddle and good luck league.
It's now a matter of if he'll continue this consistency going forward.

[Rust_Cohle]

I feel like I’d take 10 years of Jokic over 10 years of LeBron. LeBron record against him is shocking.

Same.
What Jokic lacks on defense, he makes up for with his all around game. He can score in so many ways.


Give him a second fiddle and good luck league.
It's now a matter of if he'll continue this consistency going forward.

For sure. I think Jokic is an even better ceiling raiser than LeBron. He's also a better playmaker which is nuts considering how good LeBron is with his passing.

[bledredwine]

I feel like I’d take 10 years of Jokic over 10 years of LeBron. LeBron record against him is shocking.

Same.
What Jokic lacks on defense, he makes up for with his all around game. He can score in so many ways.


Give him a second fiddle and good luck league.
It's now a matter of if he'll continue this consistency going forward.

For sure. I think Jokic is an even better ceiling raiser than LeBron. He's also a better playmaker which is nuts considering how good LeBron is with his passing.

You're seriously reading my mind. I've always considered that Lebron's weakness. He's an amazing player but the lack of a consistent shot means the team must continually play through him.

I'm convinced that a player's ability to play off ball (basically, their ability to shoot and take a backseat at times) highly affects their impact as a ceiling raiser. Jokic's passing is more versatile, as is his offensive game in general. Lebron's probably better at getting to the rim.

[Rust_Cohle]

Same.
What Jokic lacks on defense, he makes up for with his all around game. He can score in so many ways.


Give him a second fiddle and good luck league.
It's now a matter of if he'll continue this consistency going forward.

For sure. I think Jokic is an even better ceiling raiser than LeBron. He's also a better playmaker which is nuts considering how good LeBron is with his passing.

You're seriously reading my mind. I've always considered that Lebron's weakness. He's an amazing player but the lack of a consistent shot means the team must continually play through him.

I'm convinced that a player's ability to play off ball (basically, their ability to shoot and take a backseat at times) highly affects their impact as a ceiling raiser. Jokic's passing is more versatile, as is his offensive game in general. Lebron's probably better at getting to the rim.

Agreed 100%. I just hope Jokic's consistency continues (and since his game doesn't really rely on athleticism hopefully it should continue). I wonder if he is even better off getting out of Denver sooner than later. That Murray contract is going to cripple that franchise and they definitely took a step back losing some key bench players during that summer right after they won the title.

[ty 4191]

There's no real debate, so we don't need a thread for this. it's like making a sticky thread for the goat debate in hockey. You don't need it, because it's pretty settled.

Plenty of people, including Gretzky himself and Lemieux called Howe the GOAT both when he played, and when he died. And since Gretzky retired, it's pretty clear to all the experts, today, that Sidney Crosby is both more skilled and more versatile and valuable all around. And considering the super high scoring era Gretzky played in, he's not the greatest goal scorer of all time, either. Not even close. Same goes for Howe. Dead puck era, also.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/goals_adjusted_career.html

So there's a ton of debate and dissension amongst experts and insiders in hockey, just the same as Lebron (plus all the others) getting a large swath of votes here, and this discussion is probably thousands of posts long, ALREADY!

[ty 4191]

Jordan’s the GOAT. The majority of GOAT level players (Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe) agree. ROTY, 10 scoring titles, 3 steals titles, 5 MVP’s, 6 FMVP’s, 2 repeats, 2 3-peats, 6-0 in the Finals, highest career PER, highest career regular and postseason PPG average etc not to mention all of the advanced stat metric records he owns. Did it all in just 11 1/2 seasons. Some GOATS win (Russell) and some have longevity stats (Lebron) but Jordan has the best mix of winning AND stats.

1. Jokic now actually has the highest PER, BPM, and WS/48 in NBA history.

2. Jordan wasn't asked to stop scoring and focus on defense, shot blocking, passing the entire second half of his career. Wilt was, and, did. And, despite that, Jordan is still only 5 one hundreths of a point ahead of Wilt in all time PPG.

[ty 4191]

I'm not gonna lie I'm a little buzzed It's my Friday...

Can you please add Wilt to the poll? He's certainly a viable candidate.

Thank you!

[bledredwine]

Jordan’s the GOAT. The majority of GOAT level players (Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe) agree. ROTY, 10 scoring titles, 3 steals titles, 5 MVP’s, 6 FMVP’s, 2 repeats, 2 3-peats, 6-0 in the Finals, highest career PER, highest career regular and postseason PPG average etc not to mention all of the advanced stat metric records he owns. Did it all in just 11 1/2 seasons. Some GOATS win (Russell) and some have longevity stats (Lebron) but Jordan has the best mix of winning AND stats.

1. Jokic now actually has the highest PER, BPM, and WS/48 in NBA history.

2. Jordan wasn't asked to stop scoring and focus on defense, shot blocking, passing the entire second half of his career. Wilt was, and, did. And, despite that, Jordan is still only 5 one hundreths of a point ahead of Wilt in all time PPG.

What? Jordan was in the conversation of best defender since 88’, regardless of whatever voting excuses people make. And it’s not close with Lebron. There are so many flaws and Jordan wins almost all angles except for longevity, leaving the fans with era excuses.

Despite Lebron playing over the last twenty years, Jordan still has triple the votes and understandably so. The only players to play both also say Jordan and not close, or something to that effect.

[ScrantonBulls]

Jordan’s the GOAT. The majority of GOAT level players (Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe) agree. ROTY, 10 scoring titles, 3 steals titles, 5 MVP’s, 6 FMVP’s, 2 repeats, 2 3-peats, 6-0 in the Finals, highest career PER, highest career regular and postseason PPG average etc not to mention all of the advanced stat metric records he owns. Did it all in just 11 1/2 seasons. Some GOATS win (Russell) and some have longevity stats (Lebron) but Jordan has the best mix of winning AND stats.

1. Jokic now actually has the highest PER, BPM, and WS/48 in NBA history.

2. Jordan wasn't asked to stop scoring and focus on defense, shot blocking, passing the entire second half of his career. Wilt was, and, did. And, despite that, Jordan is still only 5 one hundreths of a point ahead of Wilt in all time PPG.

Bingo on the defense. He was arguably the 3rd best defender on all his championship teams. Rodman and Pippen were without question better defenders on the 2nd threepeat. Horace was better defensively during the 1st threepeat IMO.

The Bulls had a better defensive rating in 93-94 than in 92-93, after Jordan retired. It's evident he wasn't the piece that made the defense elite. Pippen and Horace/Rodman would the key cogs to those defenses.

[SlimShady83]

I'm not gonna lie I'm a little buzzed It's my Friday...

Can you please add Wilt to the poll? He's certainly a viable candidate.

Thank you!

Sadly no, can't change names will reset the entire poll and I'm not doing that.
It's also been discussed many, many times since this was started back In July. It's all there.

Also many thanks for not quoting the entire first page like others have

Peace out.

[Rust_Cohle]

I'm not gonna lie I'm a little buzzed It's my Friday...

Can you please add Wilt to the poll? He's certainly a viable candidate.

Thank you!

Nah, huge let down when it comes to titles for someone so dominant.

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron is empty stats at this point of his career

[ty 4191]

LeBron is empty stats at this point of his career

LeBron 10 Finals, his teams were underdogs in 8 of them.

Jordan 6 Finals, his teams were never underdogs once.

Average Finals Odds
Michael Jordan: -394
LeBron James: +121

Jordan could never have put up 27/7/7 across 1509 games/57,000+ MP, RS, and 287 games/11,000+ MP Playoffs, 28/9/7.

He couldn't have done that in ANY era. LeBron's body of work is one of the most impressive careers in the history of sports.

Jordan also played his prime (1990's) in a weak expansion league, with SIX new teams full of trash G League players to beat up on.

There's also the fact that he wasn't playing against the best players from around the entire world, and LeBron has.



There are, this year, 140 players from 40 countries on rosters in the NBA.

Last 6 MVP's have been internationally born.

https://basketnews.com/news-185361-nba-all-star-2023-will-have-record-breaking-number-of-international-players.html

"A record 25 international players from a record 17 countries will participate in NBA All-Star 2023 in Salt Lake City, including a record six international All-Star Game starters and a record-tying nine international All-Stars overall. In comparison, 15 international players from 12 countries highlighted the NBA All-Star 2022."

1989-1998 there were:

-16 of 29 teams (55%) during Jordan's prime below .500
-There were 10 of 29 teams (34%) under .400
-2 under .300 (!) winning percentage

The last 10 years, that % is:

-12 of 30 teams (40%) under .500
-3 out of 30 teams (10%) under .400
-0 out of 30 teams under .300 (the worst team, Magic, are at .361)

That's a garbage league Jordan played in.

The game is drastically deeper and more evolved than it was in 1991 or 1998.

LeBron played in a league that expanded once in 21 seasons. And, by 1 team, once, in 2004-2005.

Jordan played in a league that expanded 3 times within 7 seasons. And, by SIX teams, 1988-1989 through 1995-1996. 23 vs. 29 teams.

How did Jordan's teams do against those Expansion Teams? How much did they weaken the league and allow him to dominate more than LeBron has?

The 90s was an expansion league. Michael Jordan won his six rings in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. He had two three-peat performances that were separated by a short stint in baseball. While many believe this solidifies him as the greatest, they often fail to look at the league surrounding him at the time. Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added: the Hornets (1988), Heat (1988), Magic (1989), Timberwolves (1989), Raptors (1995), and Grizzlies (1995). The following stats cover the time between their creation as a team and their first playoff appearance. They include their overall game record, the number of games played against Jordan, the overall record of Jordan vs. the team in those years, and their playoff record against each other (if applicable).

Charlotte Hornets
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets 1988-1993: 18-3 (.857)

Miami Heat
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.290)

Bulls Record vs. Heat 1988-1992: 17-0 (1.00)

Orlando Magic
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic 1988-1994: 13-6 (.684)

Minnesota Timberwolves
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves 1989-1997: 16-0 (1.00)

Toronto Raptors
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors 1995-1998: 10-2 (.833)

Memphis Grizzlies

First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2002: 101–418 (.195)

Bulls Record vs. Grizzlies 1995-1998: 6-0 (1.00)

Overall Record vs. Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

League Depth:
If you look at LeBron's entire prime- let's say, 2007-2008 through 2019-2020:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 12 out of 30 (40%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 4 out of 30 (13.3%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 0 out of 30 (worst team was the TWolves at .342 WPCT)

If you look at Jordan 1988-1989 through 1997-1998:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 16 out of 29 (55.2%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 10 out of 29 (34.5%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 2 out of 29 (6.9%, Grizzlies .195 WPCT)

Added to that, we have globalization and the flourishing/advanced scouting and player development of international players. Prime Jordan hardly played against ANY international players, and essentially ZERO non American only superstars, while LeBron has played against a huge percentage of his games against the best player from THROUGHOUT the globe, and, a ton of international superstars, especially the entire second half of his career.

To state the Michael Jordan would dominate as much, today, in a fully globalized league with zero expansion the last 20 years is ludicrous.

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron is empty stats at this point of his career

LeBron 10 Finals, his teams were underdogs in 8 of them.

Jordan 6 Finals, his teams were never underdogs once.

Average Finals Odds
Michael Jordan: -394
LeBron James: +121


Jordan could never have put up 27/7/7 across 1509 games/57,000+ MP, RS, and 287 games/11,000+ MP Playoffs, 28/9/7.

He couldn't have done that in ANY era. LeBron's body of work is one of the most impressive careers in the history of sports.

Jordan also played his prime (1990's) in a weak expansion league, with SIX new teams full of trash G League players to beat up on.

There's also the fact that he wasn't playing against the best players from around the entire world, and LeBron has.



There are, this year, 140 players from 40 countries on rosters in the NBA.

Last 6 MVP's have been internationally born.

https://basketnews.com/news-185361-nba-all-star-2023-will-have-record-breaking-number-of-international-players.html

"A record 25 international players from a record 17 countries will participate in NBA All-Star 2023 in Salt Lake City, including a record six international All-Star Game starters and a record-tying nine international All-Stars overall. In comparison, 15 international players from 12 countries highlighted the NBA All-Star 2022."

1989-1998 there were:

-16 of 29 teams (55%) during Jordan's prime below .500
-There were 10 of 29 teams (34%) under .400
-2 under .300 (!) winning percentage

The last 10 years, that % is:

-12 of 30 teams (40%) under .500
-3 out of 30 teams (10%) under .400
-0 out of 30 teams under .300 (the worst team, Magic, are at .361)

That's a garbage league Jordan played in.

The game is drastically deeper and more evolved than it was in 1991 or 1998.

LeBron played in a league that expanded once in 21 seasons. And, by 1 team, once, in 2004-2005.

Jordan played in a league that expanded 3 times within 7 seasons. And, by SIX teams, 1988-1989 through 1995-1996. 23 vs. 29 teams.

How did Jordan's teams do against those Expansion Teams? How much did they weaken the league and allow him to dominate more than LeBron has?

The 90s was an expansion league. Michael Jordan won his six rings in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. He had two three-peat performances that were separated by a short stint in baseball. While many believe this solidifies him as the greatest, they often fail to look at the league surrounding him at the time. Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added: the Hornets (1988), Heat (1988), Magic (1989), Timberwolves (1989), Raptors (1995), and Grizzlies (1995). The following stats cover the time between their creation as a team and their first playoff appearance. They include their overall game record, the number of games played against Jordan, the overall record of Jordan vs. the team in those years, and their playoff record against each other (if applicable).

Charlotte Hornets
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets 1988-1993: 18-3 (.857)

Miami Heat
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.290)

Bulls Record vs. Heat 1988-1992: 17-0 (1.00)

Orlando Magic
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic 1988-1994: 13-6 (.684)

Minnesota Timberwolves
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves 1989-1997: 16-0 (1.00)

Toronto Raptors
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors 1995-1998: 10-2 (.833)

Memphis Grizzlies

First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2002: 101–418 (.195)

Bulls Record vs. Grizzlies 1995-1998: 6-0 (1.00)

Overall Record vs. Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

League Depth:
If you look at LeBron's entire prime- let's say, 2007-2008 through 2019-2020:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 12 out of 30 (40%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 4 out of 30 (13.3%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 0 out of 30 (worst team was the TWolves at .342 WPCT)

If you look at Jordan 1988-1989 through 1997-1998:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 16 out of 29 (55.2%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 10 out of 29 (34.5%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 2 out of 29 (6.9%, Grizzlies .195 WPCT)

Added to that, we have globalization and the flourishing/advanced scouting and player development of international players. Prime Jordan hardly played against ANY international players, and essentially ZERO non American only superstars, while LeBron has played against a huge percentage of his games against the best player from THROUGHOUT the globe, and, a ton of international superstars, especially the entire second half of his career.

To state the Michael Jordan would dominate as much, today, in a fully globalized league with zero expansion the last 20 years is ludicrous.

Lebron was a huge favorite in 2011 and failed spectacularly and this was after colluding in a way MJ never did. LeBron also played in the worst/weakest eastern conference of the last 35 years where he faced just ONE all nba player the same season he played them out east which was Derek rose…who got injured.

Jordan’s finals and playoff stats trump LeBron’s. Lebron has the 2 most lopsided finals defeats for point totals in nba history. He was under dog but not by that much. MJ in the finals was untouchable, he would never have a 2011 performance like LeBron did. MJ didn’t face expansion in the playoffs did he? And why did only lebron get annihilated in the finals when those other teams fared better out west against the warriors when the Cavs couldn’t? Lebron is all about taking the easy way out. He meddles with front offices all the time, chose a much weaker conference to play in. When Mj did go up against the best international basketball had to offer he smoked them both times (1984 and 1992). Obviously international players are better now but no surprise lebron starts missing the playoffs or getting bounced much earlier when he went West. Lebron is a great runner up, but he will be remembered more as someone who other players won titles at LeBron’s expense. Mj prevented so many legends from winning a league. Lebron was in the leastern conference for a reason. Great player, but MJ had the better resume


Lebron has gotten curb stomped in the finals more than any other legend in nba history. The 2014 spurs and 2017 warriors was such complete annihilation. MJ owned the finals.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-and-michael-jordan-finals-averages

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron is empty stats at this point of his career

LeBron 10 Finals, his teams were underdogs in 8 of them.

Jordan 6 Finals, his teams were never underdogs once.

Average Finals Odds
Michael Jordan: -394
LeBron James: +121

Jordan could never have put up 27/7/7 across 1509 games/57,000+ MP, RS, and 287 games/11,000+ MP Playoffs, 28/9/7.

He couldn't have done that in ANY era. LeBron's body of work is one of the most impressive careers in the history of sports.

Jordan also played his prime (1990's) in a weak expansion league, with SIX new teams full of trash G League players to beat up on.

There's also the fact that he wasn't playing against the best players from around the entire world, and LeBron has.



There are, this year, 140 players from 40 countries on rosters in the NBA.

Last 6 MVP's have been internationally born.

https://basketnews.com/news-185361-nba-all-star-2023-will-have-record-breaking-number-of-international-players.html

"A record 25 international players from a record 17 countries will participate in NBA All-Star 2023 in Salt Lake City, including a record six international All-Star Game starters and a record-tying nine international All-Stars overall. In comparison, 15 international players from 12 countries highlighted the NBA All-Star 2022."

1989-1998 there were:

-16 of 29 teams (55%) during Jordan's prime below .500
-There were 10 of 29 teams (34%) under .400
-2 under .300 (!) winning percentage

The last 10 years, that % is:

-12 of 30 teams (40%) under .500
-3 out of 30 teams (10%) under .400
-0 out of 30 teams under .300 (the worst team, Magic, are at .361)

That's a garbage league Jordan played in.

The game is drastically deeper and more evolved than it was in 1991 or 1998.

LeBron played in a league that expanded once in 21 seasons. And, by 1 team, once, in 2004-2005.

Jordan played in a league that expanded 3 times within 7 seasons. And, by SIX teams, 1988-1989 through 1995-1996. 23 vs. 29 teams.

How did Jordan's teams do against those Expansion Teams? How much did they weaken the league and allow him to dominate more than LeBron has?

The 90s was an expansion league. Michael Jordan won his six rings in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. He had two three-peat performances that were separated by a short stint in baseball. While many believe this solidifies him as the greatest, they often fail to look at the league surrounding him at the time. Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added: the Hornets (1988), Heat (1988), Magic (1989), Timberwolves (1989), Raptors (1995), and Grizzlies (1995). The following stats cover the time between their creation as a team and their first playoff appearance. They include their overall game record, the number of games played against Jordan, the overall record of Jordan vs. the team in those years, and their playoff record against each other (if applicable).

Charlotte Hornets
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets 1988-1993: 18-3 (.857)

Miami Heat
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.290)

Bulls Record vs. Heat 1988-1992: 17-0 (1.00)

Orlando Magic
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic 1988-1994: 13-6 (.684)

Minnesota Timberwolves
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves 1989-1997: 16-0 (1.00)

Toronto Raptors
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors 1995-1998: 10-2 (.833)

Memphis Grizzlies

First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2002: 101–418 (.195)

Bulls Record vs. Grizzlies 1995-1998: 6-0 (1.00)

Overall Record vs. Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

League Depth:
If you look at LeBron's entire prime- let's say, 2007-2008 through 2019-2020:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 12 out of 30 (40%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 4 out of 30 (13.3%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 0 out of 30 (worst team was the TWolves at .342 WPCT)

If you look at Jordan 1988-1989 through 1997-1998:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 16 out of 29 (55.2%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 10 out of 29 (34.5%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 2 out of 29 (6.9%, Grizzlies .195 WPCT)

Added to that, we have globalization and the flourishing/advanced scouting and player development of international players. Prime Jordan hardly played against ANY international players, and essentially ZERO non American only superstars, while LeBron has played against a huge percentage of his games against the best player from THROUGHOUT the globe, and, a ton of international superstars, especially the entire second half of his career.

To state the Michael Jordan would dominate as much, today, in a fully globalized league with zero expansion the last 20 years is ludicrous.

Michael Jordan would be battling against Giannis and Jokic for best player in the nba today while:

- being a perennial mvp candidate year after year
- all nba defense 1st team year after year

With all of the spacing in todays nba and the lane less clogged by bigs he would absolutely feast. To think otherwise is ridiculous. If SGA can dominate in todays nba, pretty sure Jordan would too.